Teenager Reportedly Used AR-15 to Kill Five in New Mexico

[mdgator05]

Originally Posted by MichaelJoeWilliamson

Actually, let's regulate cars like we do guns;

to wit;

To buy or operate a standard car, one will have to be 18 years old. Under that age, adult supervision will be mandatory. This means the adult must be in the vehicle with the underage driver.

To buy a sports car, you will have to be 21. A "Sports car" will be defined as any combination of any two of the following: 2 doors instead of 4, spoked rims not requiring hubcaps, aerodynamic effects such as spoilers or air dams, a wheelbase under 100 inches, a manual transmission, a curb weight under 3000 lbs, fiberglass or other non-metal construction, or painted logos.

For every purchase, you will have to fill out a questionnaire confirming you're a US citizen, do not use drugs or abuse alcohol, have never had a conviction for alcohol related incidents or reckless driving. Lying on this form will be punishable by 10 years in prison and/or a $10,000 fine.

New cars will only be purchased from Federal Automobile Licensees who must provide fingerprints, proof of character, secure storage for all vehicles, and who must call the Federal Bureau of Motor Vehicles to verify your information before purchase. They may approve or decline or delay the sale. If they decline, you may appeal the decision in writing to a review board. If they delay, it becomes an approval automatically after 10 days. However, the dealer may decline to complete such a sale in case of later problems.

Additionally, the purchase of more than two cars in a given year will require signing an understanding that buying cars in order to resell them without a license is a crime. There is an 11% federal excise tax on all new vehicles, plus any state or local tax.

Federal Automobile Licensees must agree to submit to 24/7/365, unannounced, unscheduled searches of their entire homes, businesses and any relates properties and personal effects to be named later.

Then you will be eligible to take your drivers' license test to determine your eligibility to operate on the street. Rules will vary by state, with some states requiring proof of need to own a vehicle for business purposes, and up to 40 hours of professional education. Also, not all states will accept all licenses. You will need to keep track of this information. Additionally, speed limits will not be posted. It is your responsibility to research the driving laws in each area you wish to travel through. Some communities may not allow out of state vehicles, sports cars, or even any vehicles at all. Violation of these laws will result in confiscation and destruction of your vehicle by crushing.

To have a turbocharger, supercharger (External Engine Compression Devices) or a muffler will require an application to the Federal Bureau of Motor Vehicles. A $2000 tax stamp will be required for these High Performance Vehicles. Your request must also be signed by the local chief law enforcement officer, and you must provide fingerprints. If approved in 10-16 weeks, you will be responsible for keeping your High Performance Vehicle in secure storage, and request permission in writing to take it out of state. You will need to carry this documentation with you. There are 13 states that do not allow possession of High Performance Vehicles. Be sure you are aware of those laws before planning your trips. (But really, what do you need such a vehicle for anyway? Who really needs to drive that fast? You must willingly accept and adhere to the socially accepted idea that you are inherently evil for merely possessing such a fast, high powered automobile.)

Additionally, superchargers and turbochargers must be manufactured before June 1, 1986. They may be sold and refitted by a FAL who also has a Special Occupational Tax license authorizing him to work on these. New superchargers, however, are a violation of federal law, except for use by the police or military, or specific government contractors. Expect to pay $15-$30,000 each for these items. Mufflers will only cost from $250-$1000, plus the $2000 stamp. However, once the muffler is damaged, it must be disposed of by cutting it into three pieces. Failure to do this may result in your family going through the next decade only knowing you in a prison jumpsuit and all your bank accounts seized and never replenished.

Imported sports cars will be prohibited. You may purchase other items from foreign manufacturers, but your automobile is in a special class of prohibition due to its inherently evil and sinister nature. The frames may be imported, cut into three pieces, and reassembled with US made engines and suspensions, as long as 60% of the parts are American. Shortly, though, the Transmission Loophole will be closed. The purpose of allowing imports is for spare parts, not to build more destructive "race vehicles.” Transmissions will have to be US made.

Repairs may only be conducted by a licensed FAL, who will send a truck to retrieve your vehicle. It must be a flatbed type truck, winch/dolly trucks are not allowed, under 10/$10,000 penalty. You may work on your own vehicle, but any repair that exceeds emission or performance standards will be subject to federal criminal charges. And violation of this reasonable regulation could result in not only your imprisonment and the confiscation of your assets but imprisonment of any employee or family member who was insane enough to repair your “race car” for you.

Be aware that an existing HPV may have multiple HP Features. A new HPV will require a license for each feature you wish to add to it—one each for muffler or external engine compression device. And you must request and receive, in writing, permission from the federal, state and local governing authorities prior to making such modifications.

Converting a standard car to a sports car will require payment of a $2000 tax, even if no HP features are added. However, if an FAL/SOT does the conversion on a new frame before the vehicle leaves their premises, it will only be a $50 tax. You will need to carry this documentation in the glove box at all times, the mere failure of which alone can result in an arrest and possible conviction.

Michael Williamson
(not me)

Many states have increased driving ages due to issues with young drivers.

The need for insurance, which is mandated by government, essentially causes number 2 (most high end sports cars are not insurable for those under 21).

We do pull licenses for the use of a car with alcohol all the time. We suspend licenses and revoke licenses (as well as put people in jail). I wouldn't object at all to a questionnaire as part of getting or renewing a license.

Guns are not sold in this manner. I wouldn't mind guns being sold in this manner, but many guns are sold from private owner to private owners. These sales do not contain background checks, which is one of the proposals being advanced right now.

We do consent to searches of our cars by law enforcement, upon penalty of impounding the car through operation of cars.

Car repairs are done with limited risk. However, you are not allowed to make many modifications to cars. They are illegal and are punishable both by losing the car and fines and potential jail time.

And you do have to keep your car registration on you at all times or be given a government fine for failing to do so.

So many of those restrictions already exist. And as I said, the state keeps much better track of cars than guns. So in a lot of ways, cars are far more regulated than guns.

[gator996]

Originally Posted by wargunfan

When has ignorance ever prevented a liberal from pontificating on a subject and making a fool of himself?

http://www.armslist.com/info/faqs

ARMSLIST is purely a service provider that allow sellers to list items. As such, ARMSLIST can not and will not be a party in transactions. It is the sole responsibility of the buyer and seller to conduct safe and legal transactions.


I usually don't go to the personal level but you want to tell me who's ignorant & a fool on the responsibilities required on armslist?

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

Originally Posted by gator996

Wrong.

http://www.armslist.com/info/faqs


"ARMSLIST is purely a service provider that allow sellers to list items. As such, ARMSLIST can not and will not be a party in transactions. It is the sole responsibility of the buyer and seller to conduct safe and legal transactions. "

In order for the gun to be shipped to you, it has to be shipped to a FFL dealer.

[wygator]

Originally Posted by gator996

Let me explain why the comparison isn't valid...

Inherent purpose of the two products are completely different.

Automobiles are for transport but in their use deaths occur.
So, we regulate them from a safety standpoint to try an minimize the hazard.

I would argue that autos are much more highly regulated...

All of the traffic laws that exist is regulation of autos inc speed, right of way, etc.
The user must be reliscensed on a regular schedule
The chain of ownership of a vehicle is maintained by the govt
National safety standards exist for the product


On the other hand, you have guns...sole purpose is to kill people

And the argument for regulating that product is that it should be less than automobile regulation?




The 2nd ammendment provides for the right to bear arms...

...does that mean any arms?


Should you have the right to own a grenande launcher, bomb, or land mine too?

There's your major flaw in leading to your conclusions. The sole purpose of guns is NOT to kill people. Certainly guns CAN kill people, but it is hardly their sole purpose.

Most people use guns recreationally for target shooting and hunting.

The primary purpose of autos is transportation, but they can and do kill lots of people as well.

When guns are used for self-defense, they often do not kill people. In fact, there were two different incidents in Casper recently when a concealed carry person showed their firearm in the presence of an armed criminal and in each case the criminal fled.

No one was hurt, either the criminal or the potential victims.

[GatorNorth]

The gun debate has become a silly refrain by 2 sides unwilling to compromise on anything, much like the rest of Washington and most posters on this board. So it becomes a contest of who can type the loudest.

I don't even think most NRA members think assault weapons should be in our closets, they're just avoiding the slippery regulatory slope and maintaining their fundraising ability. It's an economic argument wrapped in a flag.

And the anti-gun crowd knows that its ability to obtain broad regulatory controls is very limited, but if you don't ask you don't get.

As a result, posters on this board prattle on ad nauseum about all libs being idiots or all conservatives advocating murder. It chills all real debate and just grows tiresome.

Criminals will always break the law but that doesnt mean a reasonable regulation of guns isn't smart. Geez, the 2d amendment itself has a reasonable component built into its language regarding the militia. Common sense would say the same should apply to our homes.

And Americans will always be allowed to have their guns. It's as fundamental as free speech and due process, but that doesn't mean the kid next door should be able to buty an UZI without some prerequsites.

How hard is it really to figure this out if both sides stopped the posturing, labeling and name calling?

[cocodrilo]

Teenager Reportedly Used AR-15 to Kill Five in New Mexico

It looks like the black ops people are on a roll. Or perhaps I should say a road show. Look out, they may be coming to a town near you.

[wargunfan]

Originally Posted by gator996

http://www.armslist.com/info/faqs

ARMSLIST is purely a service provider that allow sellers to list items. As such, ARMSLIST can not and will not be a party in transactions. It is the sole responsibility of the buyer and seller to conduct safe and legal transactions.


I usually don't go to the personal level but you want to tell me who's ignorant & a fool on the responsibilities required on armslist?

Tell you what, any fool can go a read up on rules. I have bought and sold rifles and pistols for over forty years. I am thoroughly familiar with the rules of transfer for firearms. I have fired tens of thousands of rounds of ammunition with all kinds of firearms safely and without incident. I can field strip and service most firearms. I have taken numerous firearms safety courses and deescalation courses. I have a concealed weapons permit and have been fingerprinted and passed hundreds of background checks. I have a library of federal firearms statutes. I don't think some butthurt liberal can teach me anything I need to know about firearms or rules.

[wargunfan]

Originally Posted by GatorNorth

The gun debate has become a silly refrain by 2 sides unwilling to compromise on anything, much like the rest of Washington and most posters on this board. So it becomes a contest of who can type the loudest.

I don't even think most NRA members think assault weapons should be in our closets, they're just avoiding the slippery regulatory slope and maintaining their fundraising ability. It's an economic argument wrapped in a flag.

And the anti-gun crowd knows that its ability to obtain broad regulatory controls is very limited, but if you don't ask you don't get.

As a result, posters on this board prattle on ad nauseum about all libs being idiots or all conservatives advocating murder. It chills all real debate and just grows tiresome.

Criminals will always break the law but that doesnt mean a reasonable regulation of guns isn't smart. Geez, the 2d amendment itself has a reasonable component built into its language regarding the militia. Common sense would say the same should apply to our homes.

And Americans will always be allowed to have their guns. It's as fundamental as free speech and due process, but that doesn't mean the kid next door should be able to buty an UZI without some prerequsites.

How hard is it really to figure this out if both sides stopped the posturing, labeling and name calling?

Right there you lose your credibility. No government "allows" a citizen to have a firearm. I know what you're trying to say but it's really about passing ineffective laws which do nothing to protect children. So we wonder about the real agenda.
We'll stop calling out the liberals when they stop trying to tamper with the right to keep and bear arms. And by the way, the very idea that a government "allows" a citizen to have a firearm is a liberal lie that we totally reject.

[gator996]

Originally Posted by wargunfan

Tell you what, any fool can go a read up on rules. I have bought and sold rifles and pistols for over forty years. I am thoroughly familiar with the rules of transfer for firearms. I have fired tens of thousands of rounds of ammunition with all kinds of firearms safely and without incident. I can field strip and service most firearms. I have taken numerous firearms safety courses and deescalation courses. I have a concealed weapons permit and have been fingerprinted and passed hundreds of background checks. I have a library of federal firearms statutes. I don't think some butthurt liberal can teach me anything I need to know about firearms or rules.

That's all well and good...

But you were wrong on this point.

I was asked how easy it was to get a gun in S Florida and I said 5 minutes on armslist.

You don't agree?

[gator996]

Originally Posted by wygator

There's your major flaw in leading to your conclusions. The sole purpose of guns is NOT to kill people. Certainly guns CAN kill people, but it is hardly their sole purpose.

Most people use guns recreationally for target shooting and hunting.

The primary purpose of autos is transportation, but they can and do kill lots of people as well.

When guns are used for self-defense, they often do not kill people. In fact, there were two different incidents in Casper recently when a concealed carry person showed their firearm in the presence of an armed criminal and in each case the criminal fled.

No one was hurt, either the criminal or the potential victims.

If those were the primary purposes then live ammunition wouldn't really be necessary at all would it?

Certainly not for target practice...

And how about we let hunting guns only shoot tranquilizers....


Stop being ridiculous here...Guns are made to kill things.

[gator996]

Originally Posted by wargunfan

Right there you lose your credibility. No government "allows" a citizen to have a firearm. I know what you're trying to say but it's really about passing ineffective laws which do nothing to protect children. So we wonder about the real agenda.
We'll stop calling out the liberals when they stop trying to tamper with the right to keep and bear arms. And by the way, the very idea that a government "allows" a citizen to have a firearm is a liberal lie that we totally reject.

OK, let's talk real agendas...


Please someone from the gun advocate side please answer this...


Since the 2nd ammendment provides for the right to bear arms....

What is permissable as "arms"?
Is any type of armanent permissable in your opinion?

[MichiGator2002]

Originally Posted by gator996

OK, let's talk real agendas...

Please someone from the gun advocate side please answer this...

Since the 2nd ammendment provides for the right to bear arms....

What is permissable as "arms"?
Is any type of armanent permissable in your opinion?

What is permissible as "speech"? What makes something the "press"? What qualifies as a religion? All the same question, all the same answer.

Which, in case you are greeting it with a blank stare, is that there are no inherent limits to the right, the right is itself a limit on the government. The test is always where the government's limits have exceptions. Not the other way around.

[GatorNorth]

Originally Posted by MichiGator2002

What is permissible as "speech"? What makes something the "press"? What qualifies as a religion? All the same question, all the same answer.

Lets not kid each other. The IRS determines what's a religion and what's a cult.

Press and speech are regulated reasonably with social mores impacting them. Guns should be too, and are far more black and white.

[gator996]

Thank you Michigan...

So what should the exceptions to the 2nd ammendment be?

[gator996]

Originally Posted by GatorNorth

Lets not kid each other. The IRS determines what's a religion and what's a cult.

Press and speech are regulated reasonably with social mores impacting them. Guns should be too, and are far more black and white.

Thank You

Sometimes the arguments presented here become so ridiculous...

[wargunfan]

Originally Posted by gator996

OK, let's talk real agendas...


Please someone from the gun advocate side please answer this...


Since the 2nd ammendment provides for the right to bear arms....

What is permissable as "arms"?
Is any type of armanent permissable in your opinion?

This has been gone over ad infinitum, ad nauseum on THFSG. But I'll just throw this out a starter: anything but crew served weapons. And yes, that would include fully automatic weapons. I can own any machine gun I choose. Look that up bubby. I choose not to for several reasons. But anything an individual can use should be legal. I do not include explosives in this as most individuals cannot safely store or use them. Look, the Second Amendment is a tripwire against tyranny. Once tripped all manner of weaponry will come into use. You just seem to have more faith in the inherent goodness of big government. I disagree. We're different. I understand that. I will never try to force a gun into your hands. You just respect my right to keep and bear arms and stand with me to stop the creeping disarmament of THE PEOPLE.

[MichiGator2002]

Originally Posted by gator996

Thank you Michigan...

So what should the exceptions to the 2nd ammendment be?

There was an entire thread about that just recently, but no consensus. The upshot is that we know two pretty important things from the Supreme Court's two recent rulings -- first, that the incorporation doctrine does mean that the 2nd Amendment binds the states, and second, that some sort of heightened scrutiny does apply to infringements on private gun ownership. The Court declined to say what level of scrutiny applies, though, so it'll be something that gets litigated. I wouldn't be surprised if there are lawsuits brought against New York's recent legislation, particularly the magazine limits, and other states with famously inconvenient/restrictive laws like MA or CA.

[Minister_of_Information]

AR15s are scary looking to some people and laws that restrict these weapons are reassuring to them. It's really nothing more than pandering.

[wargunfan]

Originally Posted by Minister_of_Information

AR15s are scary looking to some people and laws that restrict these weapons are reassuring to them. It's really nothing more than pandering.

This^^^^ If folks could just understand that an AR15 or any other rifle with a pistol grip or telescoping stock or accessory rail is no more dangerous than a hunting rifle. They should be outraged that politicians are pandering to their misplaced fears.

[ArtVandelay]

Originally Posted by The_Graygator

So a criminal uses an AR - 15 to commit a crime?

I think the moral of this story is... keep the weapons out of the hands of criminals and not law-abiding citizens.

He wasn't a criminal until he took the gun and committed a crime...