Gator Country

Speedofsand · 01-21-2013, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whitelakegator

I am curious as to why you didn't respond to the whole post and not just specific items?

Is it possible that Tebow has an extremely difficult time reading defenses and that is why he has trouble?

People see what they want to see. You see a 1-4 record down the stretch. I see a 1-4 record before Tebow got to play. You see a 9-9 team record. I see a 7-4 record with Tebow playing, then 1-1 in the playoffs.
Tebow earned the chance to play instead of McElroy but Ryan was afraid to give it to him because a win would have had Jets fans screaming for Ryan's job. Instead, they fired the GM, OC, and QB coach, and keep Ryan and they are stuck with keeping his boy Sanchez like a bad tattoo.

whitelakegator · 01-21-2013, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedofsand

People see what they want to see. You see a 1-4 record down the stretch. I see a 1-4 record before Tebow got to play. You see a 9-9 team record. I see a 7-4 record with Tebow playing, then 1-1 in the playoffs.
Tebow earned the chance to play instead of McElroy but Ryan was afraid to give it to him because a win would have had Jets fans screaming for Ryan's job. Instead, they fired the GM, OC, and QB coach, and keep Ryan and they are stuck with keeping his boy Sanchez like a bad tattoo.

Actually, I am asking for people to look DEEPER than just the record. IMHO, that doesn't tell the whole story. You have to look at how he performed. Record just isn't the end all be all. Do you think it is fair to put weight into performance and not just record alone?

Distant Gator · 01-22-2013, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whitelakegator

Actually, I am asking for people to look DEEPER than just the record. IMHO, that doesn't tell the whole story. You have to look at how he performed. Record just isn't the end all be all. Do you think it is fair to put weight into performance and not just record alone?

Ok- let's look to Tebow's performance. Did he have some bad games? Yes, just like most other young QBs. But did he have some good games? Also yes.

Vs the Raiders? 124 yds passing and 118 rushing.
He beat the Jets with a last minute drive that was a thing of beauty.
He had 143 yards passing and 67 rushing to beat San Diego.
He had 202 passing (10/15 BTW) to beat the Vikings.
He had 236 passing and 49 rushing to beat the Bears. (Leading rusher BTW.)
In the first NE game Tebow had 194 passing and 93 rushing (and 2 TDS.) Denver led NE for a while and then the NE offense kicked it into high gear. So TT almost accounted for 300 yards vs the Super Bowl team. What killed Denver was 3 fumbles (1 by TT.)

And then we get to the post season.
TT played the top defense in the NFL, if memory serves.
TT threw for 316 yards and ran for 50 more. And didn't throw an INT- either in regulation or in OT. (Looking at you Peyton Manning.)
Most importantly Denver won a home playoff game after beginning the year 1-4 and being picked for last place in the West.
And this was with their top receiver traded away, their top running back hurt (Moreno), and with a defense that was dead last in the NFL the year before.

Any rational person would say that Tebow had an extraordinary year with Denver. As good as Peyton Manning? By and large, no, though TT outperformed PM in their home playoff game. But good enough to get a chance somewhere that needs a QB like Minnesota, Jax, or many others? Certainly. But the NFL and many others aren't rational when it comes to TT.
ESPN poisioned the well, so clubs are afraid to take him and get a lot of bad publicity.

atlantagator86 · 01-22-2013, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Distant Gator

Any rational person would say that Tebow had an extraordinary year with Denver.

Distant, this isn't really directed at you but it never ceases to amaze me how different people can look at the same thing and have completely different impressions of it.

Some people, like Distant Gator Gator, look at Tebow's performance in Denver and see it as "extraordinary" and can't understand how any rational person couldn't see that. I look at it and I saw some good plays but nothing that would make me as a coach or GM think Tebow was anywhere near ready to be a full time starter. And then there's the GMs and coaches who apparently very few, if any, appear to believe Tebow deserves to be a starter.

I also don't think ESPN has much, if anything, to do with what those coaches and GMs think.

whitelakegator · 01-22-2013, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Distant Gator

Ok- let's look to Tebow's performance. Did he have some bad games? Yes, just like most other young QBs. But did he have some good games? Also yes.

Vs the Raiders? 124 yds passing and 118 rushing.
He beat the Jets with a last minute drive that was a thing of beauty.
He had 143 yards passing and 67 rushing to beat San Diego.
He had 202 passing (10/15 BTW) to beat the Vikings.
He had 236 passing and 49 rushing to beat the Bears. (Leading rusher BTW.)
In the first NE game Tebow had 194 passing and 93 rushing (and 2 TDS.) Denver led NE for a while and then the NE offense kicked it into high gear. So TT almost accounted for 300 yards vs the Super Bowl team. What killed Denver was 3 fumbles (1 by TT.)

And then we get to the post season.
TT played the top defense in the NFL, if memory serves.
TT threw for 316 yards and ran for 50 more. And didn't throw an INT- either in regulation or in OT. (Looking at you Peyton Manning.)
Most importantly Denver won a home playoff game after beginning the year 1-4 and being picked for last place in the West.
And this was with their top receiver traded away, their top running back hurt (Moreno), and with a defense that was dead last in the NFL the year before.

Any rational person would say that Tebow had an extraordinary year with Denver. As good as Peyton Manning? By and large, no, though TT outperformed PM in their home playoff game. But good enough to get a chance somewhere that needs a QB like Minnesota, Jax, or many others? Certainly. But the NFL and many others aren't rational when it comes to TT.
ESPN poisioned the well, so clubs are afraid to take him and get a lot of bad publicity.

Performance isn't just yards. What was his completions to attempts? Third down efficiency? Yds per attempt? QB rating for each game? I see you Teo'ed your post to only show what you wanted to show. Nice.

orangeblueorangeblue · 01-22-2013, 10:51 AM

Eh, let's put the Mendoza line at a 75QBR.

That's 8 good games to 6 not good games. I'd say he really only had 2 "bad" games, the last of 2011 regular season.

He played pretty well for a first year starter.

orangeblueorangeblue · 01-22-2013, 10:58 AM

Using that Mendoza line:

Matt Ryan's first year: 11/18 games above 75 (61%)
Tim Tebow's first year: 8/12 (67%)
Eli Manning: 6/17 (35%)
Big Ben: 11/17 (65%)
Flacco: 10/19 (53%)
Luck: 9/17 (53%)

Distant Gator · 01-22-2013, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atlantagator86

Distant, this isn't really directed at you but it never ceases to amaze me how different people can look at the same thing and have completely different impressions of it.

Some people, like Distant Gator Gator, look at Tebow's performance in Denver and see it as "extraordinary" and can't understand how any rational person couldn't see that. I look at it and I saw some good plays but nothing that would make me as a coach or GM think Tebow was anywhere near ready to be a full time starter. And then there's the GMs and coaches who apparently very few, if any, appear to believe Tebow deserves to be a starter.

I also don't think ESPN has much, if anything, to do with what those coaches and GMs think.

I think it's extraordinary that a 1st year starter can take a team that's 1-4, with a hurt starting RB, a top WR that was traded, and a defense that was LAST in the NFL the previous year, and go 7-4, and then beat the top ranked D in the NFL by producing 366 yards and 3 TDs. Again- on a team that was picked to finish last in a weak division.

What would you call it? Who else has done anything like this in their 1st year. Is this normal for a 1st year NFL starter? Or is it at least better than average?

And again- the question is not whether Tebow is better than Manning. I'm not saying that. But could he do better than Ponder, than Gabbert, than so many others? I think so and the record shows that he did.

About ESPN- people are driven by the opinion of others in their peer group. It's not so outlandish that the NFL peer group can be swayed by some very loud voices on ESPN- especially when there is some evidence.

Distant Gator · 01-22-2013, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whitelakegator

Performance isn't just yards. What was his completions to attempts? Third down efficiency? Yds per attempt? QB rating for each game? I see you Teo'ed your post to only show what you wanted to show. Nice.

I don't have time to look up all that- if you want to knock yourself out.
Nobody is Teoing except perhaps you who doesn't want to talk about the many good games TT had.

Let me ask this- if Tebow is SO BAD then how did he beat the Steelers? How did he throw for 316 yards and rush for 50 more with no INTs?

orangeblueorangeblue · 01-22-2013, 11:32 AM

I would never qualify Tebow's year in 2011 as "extraordinary."

BUT

It was certainly decent enough, with hints of brilliance, and yet Tebow has never been afforded the benefit of the doubt that most QBs are given. That's the rub.

rpmGator · 01-22-2013, 11:36 AM

All losses were because of Tim, all wins were because of the Bronco team... Orton lost four out of five and got a contract with the Cowboys. Tim goes 7 and 4 and now he isn't as good as Orton.

Getting beat by NE is such a shame...

He has one more playoff win with Denver than Manning, and has the same number of playoff wins as Tony Gonzalez who has played forever.

And the highest QBR in the last five minutes of games, when passing is a need, not a want.

One thing for sure, Manning can't throw the ball Flacco beat them with.

raycgator · 01-22-2013, 11:36 AM

http://espn.go.com/new-york/nfl/stor...sundquist-says

^

Now the Jets are throwing TT under the bus. They're trying to deflect attention from the miserable season now that the finger pointing has begun.

Religious or not I kinda believe that eventually everybody gets whats coming to them. Jets might end up being the next Cleveland Browns

atlantagator86 · 01-22-2013, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Distant Gator

I think it's extraordinary that a 1st year starter can take a team that's 1-4, with a hurt starting RB, a top WR that was traded, and a defense that was LAST in the NFL the previous year, and go 7-4, and then beat the top ranked D in the NFL by producing 366 yards and 3 TDs. Again- on a team that was picked to finish last in a weak division.

What would you call it? Who else has done anything like this in their 1st year. Is this normal for a 1st year NFL starter? Or is it at least better than average?

And again- the question is not whether Tebow is better than Manning. I'm not saying that. But could he do better than Ponder, than Gabbert, than so many others? I think so and the record shows that he did.

About ESPN- people are driven by the opinion of others in their peer group. It's not so outlandish that the NFL peer group can be swayed by some very loud voices on ESPN- especially when there is some evidence.

Like I said, different people view it completely differently. You base your opinion almost solely on the team performance (wins and losses). I view mine more based on his individual performance. Neither of us is entirely right or wrong.

I think most of the NFL coaches and GMs view the guys on ESPN as total hacks. I think most of them are egomaniacs who think they know more than anybody else anyway. I don't mean that as an insult. Those guys should have big egos.

I think they probably watch the ESPN highlights but could care less about the opinions expressed. There are probably only a couple of the guys on there that they care at all about what they think and those are probably well-respected former coaches. And those guys are rarely going to discuss topics like Tebow.

whitelakegator · 01-22-2013, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Distant Gator

I think it's extraordinary that a 1st year starter can take a team that's 1-4, with a hurt starting RB, a top WR that was traded, and a defense that was LAST in the NFL the previous year, and go 7-4, and then beat the top ranked D in the NFL by producing 366 yards and 3 TDs. Again- on a team that was picked to finish last in a weak division.

What would you call it? Who else has done anything like this in their 1st year. Is this normal for a 1st year NFL starter? Or is it at least better than average?

And again- the question is not whether Tebow is better than Manning. I'm not saying that. But could he do better than Ponder, than Gabbert, than so many others? I think so and the record shows that he did.

About ESPN- people are driven by the opinion of others in their peer group. It's not so outlandish that the NFL peer group can be swayed by some very loud voices on ESPN- especially when there is some evidence.

What's this "first year starter" stuff? When did this relabeling begin? Dude's going into his FOURTH season. Are ppl then going to start calling it his "second year starting"? Let's quit the revisionist history. He started in his rookie season. Last year was his second year starting. First year? Wow...some of you will TEO anything to fit your story.

whitelakegator · 01-22-2013, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Distant Gator

I don't have time to look up all that- if you want to knock yourself out.
Nobody is Teoing except perhaps you who doesn't want to talk about the many good games TT had.

Let me ask this- if Tebow is SO BAD then how did he beat the Steelers? How did he throw for 316 yards and rush for 50 more with no INTs?

I'm pretty sure that the Steelers pro bowl safety had to sit out because of his illness. Denver completed a lot of long throws that I am pretty sure Clark would have been around or maybe not even attempted if Clark was in there. Just MHO nothing more.

Tebow played well in that game. So you put your whole organization in the hands of sub 50% completion QB all because of one game sandwiched between 6-22 for 60 yds and 9-26 for 134 yds???? Really????

orangeblueorangeblue · 01-22-2013, 01:33 PM

Seriously, he had a better first starting season than a lot of QBs who are tearing things up now.

Spurffelbow833 · 01-22-2013, 01:41 PM

Forget about starting. Even if he isn't good enough to start, why can't Tebow get a real second string spot, where there is no question or BS about who goes in if the starter goes down? Look at how long guys like George Blanda and Steve Deberg lasted with that gig. Tebow would be the perfect guy to come in and save the day if the starter got injured. That no one is willing to even consider this role for him really stinks to high heaven.

orangeblueorangeblue · 01-22-2013, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spurffelbow833

Forget about starting. Even if he isn't good enough to start, why can't Tebow get a real second string spot, where there is no question or BS about who goes in if the starter goes down? Look at how long guys like George Blanda and Steve Deberg lasted with that gig. Tebow would be the perfect guy to come in and save the day if the starter got injured. That no one is willing to even consider this role for him really stinks to high heaven.

As Skip Bayless (imo, accurately) points out, that really isn't a possibility for a lot of teams right now. You can't have a pocket passer as your #1 and Tim Tebow as your #2, because they both require radically different offenses.

Can Tebow pass? You bet. Would I put him in a traditional NFL offense? Hell no. So unless he ends up getting a shot the way Cam Newton, RGIII, etc., have, he'll have to back up one of those type of players.

GATORAZ · 01-22-2013, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spurffelbow833

Forget about starting. Even if he isn't good enough to start, why can't Tebow get a real second string spot, where there is no question or BS about who goes in if the starter goes down? Look at how long guys like George Blanda and Steve Deberg lasted with that gig. Tebow would be the perfect guy to come in and save the day if the starter got injured.

The truth is the reason Tim cant get a real back up spot is because he is a polarizing figure and has overzealous fans. When Tim was the 3rd string QB in Denver the fans didnt call for Quinn they called for Tebow. Who wants to deal with that? It sucks because even though I dont think Tim is a starting QB I am a fan of his and would like to see him get some more time to develop. However the more vocal fans make it so that Tim's presence on a team is a distraction.

whitelakegator · 01-22-2013, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GATORAZ

The truth is the reason Tim cant get a real back up spot is because he is a polarizing figure and has overzealous fans. When Tim was the 3rd string QB in Denver the fans didnt call for Quinn they called for Tebow. Who wants to deal with that? It sucks because even though I dont think Tim is a starting QB I am a fan of his and would like to see him get some more time to develop. However the more vocal fans make it so that Tim's presence on a team is a distraction.

The circus that he brings even as a back up...most teams do not want to deal with that.

Who could blame them?