The Sandy Hook "conspiracy" and what they base it on

[madgator]

Originally Posted by wgbgator

I just said people conform their behavior to social expectations, and gave an example. I don't think there was a direct or even impied equivalence of situations. So, I ask again, upon what are you basing your expectation for behavior?

you gave an comparison by example which by definition is a direct or implied equivalence. That is exactly was a comparison is.


whether someone tragically and horrifically lost a child or lost a football game. People conform to societal expectations accordingly and equally.

that is what you said in your comparison

[cocodrilo]

This reminds me of the movie Village of the Damned. Something strange is going on in town and it centers on the kids, but what is it?

[WESGATORS]

Originally Posted by madgator

are you a parent?

Yes.

Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS

[Emmitto]

Sorry to be skeptical of the skeptical, but a couple of thoughts and questions, and I'm being sincere:

A) Little kids often look strikingly similar. My buddy has three little girls that are close in age and nearly indistinguishable to non-family members and even some of his family. We call them "Cavanagail" which is Casey, Savannah, and Abigail all mashed up. Our buddy is a little upset that this is catching on, because what started as a little inside joke has now spread and lots of people do it. Point being, little girls (sisters) in pictures can easily be confused. Those look like different faces to me, but who knows.

B) So is Emily not deceased? She's walking around, now, yet listed amongst the victims? They "mistakenly" brought her to the photo op and brought her out? So one of the others was left backstage, with a handler or what? The other kids have been sacrificed and are truly gone? They managed to not only leave a survivor who isn't supposed to be here, but then trotted her out for a photo op? That would be an egregious error for such a high level operation.

C) The dad seems bizarre, no doubt. But it seems to me he's just as likely to be some schmo thrust into a spotlight at a moment of swirling emotions than anything else. He's aware of his role but doesn't go into it until he's given the "Aaand roll!"? My BIL and his wife are both ER nurses and have witnessed inexplicable (to us) behavior and reactions in moments of tragedy. I hope to never find out how I'd act, but I have this image in my head about it. But that's often just wishful thinking. If I had a nickel for every situation in which someone actually acted differently than they always thought and claimed they would then I'd upgrade to the Animal Planet package.

D) I'm open to the possibilities here. I'm just seeking a little more reasoning than I've seen so far.

[wgbgator]

Originally Posted by madgator

you gave an comparison by example which by definition is a direct or implied equivalence. That is exactly was a comparison is.


whether someone tragically and horrifically lost a child or lost a football game. People conform to societal expectations accordingly and equally.

that is what you said in your comparison

No, I just said that people conform to societal expectations in any given situation, not that all situations are the same. I mean, did I really have to qualify my statement by explaining that attending a funeral is different from playing a football game? Because thats something anyone knows. Or did you just want to avoid answering my question?

[madgator]

Originally Posted by wgbgator

No, I just said that people conform to societal expectations in any given situation, not that all situations are the same. I mean, did I really have to qualify my statement by explaining that attending a funeral is different from playing a football game? Because thats something anyone knows. Or did you just want to avoid answering my question?

I answered the question.....psych 101. Also took a bunch of other psych classes at UF. Does someone have to be a licensed psychiatrist to be able to parrot what the clinically accepted grief/depression symptoms are?

would I be qualified if I was a clinically depressed mental patient? If I had first hand experience with a comparable tragedy?

I really don't understand why you are asking me to qualify myself.....

to the other point

in your comparison of situations you said that regardless of what the situation is, that people will conform to societal expectations.

we agree that you said this. But that's not the relevant point.

By saying that, you are basically saying that the "situation" plays no role in the response. That societal expectations of the behavior dictates what the behavior is. Not the persons actual emotions or state of mind.

so no, you didn't have to qualify the difference because you were not contrasting. You were comparing.


Do I have to be an english professor to rightfully comment on the distinction between compare and contrast?

[wgbgator]

Originally Posted by madgator

I answered the question.....psych 101. Also took a bunch of other psych classes at UF. Does someone have to be a licensed psychiatrist to be able to parrot what the clinically accepted grief/depression symptoms are?

would I be qualified if I was a clinically depressed mental patient? If I had first hand experience with a comparable tradegy?

I really don't understand why you are asking me to qualify myself.....

to the other point

in your comparison of situations you said that regardless of what the situation is, that people will conform to societal expectations.

Thus, you are basically saying that the "situation" plays no role in the response. That societal expectations of the behavior dictates what the behavior is. Not the persons actual emotions or state of mind.

so no, you didn't have to qualify the difference because you were not contrasting. You were comparing.

Do I have to be an english professor to rightfully comment on the distinction between compare and contrast?

But the situation dictates the appropriate behavior, so I don't follow your logic. Or you misunderstand what I said. People expect you to be sad at funerals and happy at birthday parties, whether you personally are or not. If I go from a funeral to a birthday party, I may feel sad, but when I get to the party I've gotta smile a little, or people will think something is wrong. So, the situation changed the outward behavior I must show to be on ths same page as everyone else.

[madgator]

Originally Posted by wgbgator

But the situation dictates the appropriate behavior, so I don't follow your logic. Or you misunderstand what I said. People expect you to be sad at funerals and happy at birthday parties, whether you personally are or not. If I go from a funeral to a birthday party, I may feel sad, but when I get to the party I've gotta smile a little, or people will think something is wrong. So, the situation changed the outward behavior I must show to be on ths same page as everyone else.

and thats the point.


people here are talking about the father's behavior leading up to getting in front of the press.....doesn't seem like a grieving man and then SNAP! grieving.

comes off as very strange.

[wgbgator]

Originally Posted by madgator

and thats the point.


people here are talking about the father's behavior leading up to getting in front of the press.....doesn't seem like a grieving man and then SNAP! grieving.

comes off as very strange.

Its strange that he took on a more somber tone when addressing the press and lots of people he didnt know about a sad subject? That seems normal to me. So would some degree of laughing or smiling in what you would assume to be a more private moment. And that's my point.

[madgator]

Originally Posted by wgbgator

Its strange that he took on a more somber tone when addressing the press and lots of people he didnt know about a sad subject? That seems normal to me. So would some degree of laughing or smiling in what you would assume to be a more private moment. And that's my point.

did you watch the video?

[gatorev12]

Originally Posted by madgator

and thats the point.

people here are talking about the father's behavior leading up to getting in front of the press.....doesn't seem like a grieving man and then SNAP! grieving.

comes off as very strange.

Strange it may be...but it's still ONE parent. The other 19 or so parents haven't exhibited anything other than crushing grief one would more or less expect from a parent in that situation.

If you're wanting an example of how someone can go quickly from a jovial emotion to sadness relatively quickly...consider this: a popular NCO goes down within his combat unit and a number of guys are shaken up about it. The unit itself is still in a combat zone and a firefight is still going on. The next-highest ranking NCO is expected to step in and lead and does so, getting everyone refocused and the squad out of there. On the way out, the new ranking NCO starts going up to people, cracking jokes, smiling, getting everyone's minds off dwelling on it. The entire time the NCO is with his unit, he manages to keep smiling and a positive attitude...but when he gets back to the base and to a private corner, he breaks down with grief that he suppressed until that point.

Bottom line: most people try and cheer others up when they're sad and it's not strange even for a person in extreme grief to find something to smile about. When reminded of the grief again, it floods back. Grief and sadness are tricky to predict and people react in all sorts of different ways to it.

[wgbgator]

Originally Posted by madgator

did you watch the video?

It struck me as someone who was unguarded suddenly becoming self-aware. It certainly didnt look natural, I totally agree with that. Really, our reactions arent much different. Others are just giving it a level of "creepyness" and tacitly implied guilt/ulterior motive that it probably doesnt merit, that's my only objection.

This is the logic that I object to:

He's bad at faking it in a fake/contrived situation (a press conference) so therefor the whole shooting must be fake.

[oragator1]

So the government that can't do anything right, ever, can somehow manufacture all of these elaborate conspiracies, pull them off nearly flawlessly time and again, and keep them secret?
We sent the best trained people we have after Bin Laden and we only crashed a helicopter which handed top secret into to the Chinese and had Stone Cold Steve Austin tweeting about it before they even dumped the body. That's not to take away from the bravery of those who went and the operation did it's ultimate job so total props, but the lynchpin of the CT movement is based a what is clearly a fallacy, the almost superhuman precision, secrecy and capability of a government that clearly has none of those things.

[gatorev12]

Originally Posted by madgator

are you a parent?

...a corollary to this: like all criminal acts, a conspiracy must have a motive. Let's just say the government's motive is one of the things people on here are idly speculating about (gun control, disarming citizens, police presence in schools, etc).

The conspirators (the parents in this instance) must also have a motive. Do people really believe that a parent would sacrifice one of their children for one of those causes??

Let alone 20 or so parents?

I mean, seriously, anyone sitting here thinking that needs to seek immediate psychiatric help.

[outbackjack]

Of course no parent would, let alone 20.

That's not the "conspiracy" plan that a few are suggesting.

Nevertheless, it is interesting/unusual.

I think the suggestion is a black ops team went in, did what they did, had a kid that was involved and now dead (though no one alive I think has said they recognized Adam Lanza as the shooter that day)....so they could have cased this loner genius and killed him and his mother, smashed computers, knew dad lived far away.....

Leads to a question...were the local cops the ones who found Lanza in the school, or people involved...which would be much easier to cover and exit with him.

And the main parent we see is the Robbie Parker guy, TV interviews, visits Obama.

I guess an easy solution would be to find his neighbor in Newtown and ask him how long the Parkers have lived there.

Not saying I think it's what happened, but it's just what they are saying....................... I think.

Sandy Hook fundraising relief page created 3 days before shooting, Google search results confirm

http://www.naturalnews.com/038633_Sa...cember_11.html

BTW...

snopes is helpful regarding this matter

[cocodrilo]

Originally Posted by oragator1

So the government that can't do anything right, ever, can somehow manufacture all of these elaborate conspiracies, pull them off nearly flawlessly time and again, and keep them secret?
We sent the best trained people we have after Bin Laden and we only crashed a helicopter which handed top secret into to the Chinese and had Stone Cold Steve Austin tweeting about it before they even dumped the body. That's not to take away from the bravery of those who went and the operation did it's ultimate job so total props, but the lynchpin of the CT movement is based a what is clearly a fallacy, the almost superhuman precision, secrecy and capability of a government that clearly has none of those things.

The wrongness of your post is almost flawless.

A covert operation is never "nearly flawless." As legendary former CIA director Allen Dulles wrote in his book on the subject, something always goes wrong. But the operation still works because people don't notice what went wrong or don't realize what it is that they see. The JFK assassination was sloppy in its execution and cover-up (to cite one example of pure stupidity, a CIA agent caught breaking into a safe of the House Select Committee on Assassinations in an attempt to tamper with evidence). But the cover-up still works 50 years later.

As for being kept "secret," which major covert operations are still secret? People (specifically former CIA agents or operatives) have talked about helping to off JFK, and the evidence in the case backs them up. Moreover, a majority of Americans believe there was indeed a conspiracy. Although it's still hard, without a real investigation, to pinpoint specific agencies or individuals as to their culpability, as far as it being a government conspiracy where is the "secret"?

9/11? The evidence for government complicity is there for anyone to see if they would look and take off their tinfoil hats (i.e. stop blindly believing the official conspiracy theory). And it was pretty sloppy in various ways (e.g. the military unable to get its story straight, to the point that the 9/11 Commission, if it had any guts, would have had some big brass indicted for perjury). Again, without a real investigation we may never be able to pinpoint agencies or individuals, but there is no "secret" about government complicity. (And someday, as in the case of the JFK murder, people will talk. It's human nature.)

[AmericaFirst]

Originally Posted by JohnC1908

I'll ask again. What do you guys think happened that morning?

A false-flag operation of this magnitude would take planning like we haven't seen before since they would have to make it believable to the public. We've had shootings at every level of school from high school to college. The government couldn't pass any gun control legislation after those shootings. If CIA agents like those that were wanting to pose as Cuban terrorists to get us to buy-in to a war against Cuba (Operation Northwoods) are sitting around asking themselves how they can grab more power IE: gun control an elementary school shooting and coverup would absolutely do the trick. Afterall, who in their right mind would be against gun control following a shooting like that? Now they can make the NRA out to be the bad guy.

We've heard from a select-few parents that are all HUGE gun-control advocates. Some believe all guns should be taken by force. Nevermind the whole thing about needing to make sure those that are mentally-ill don't get their hands on them and taking from law-abiding citizens is complete BS.

This guy in the video reminds me of a parent like Casey Anthony issuing a statement and becoming the prime suspect because of it. Horrible acting. If you watched that video and didn't realize it was a school shooting, just a "missing person" case, you'd believe the dad was in on something. He was totally fake.

That Eugene Rosen guy? Where the kids showed up on his driveway? What a coincidence that he's a psychologist and could provide "insight" into their thinking literally 30 minutes after it happened on TV.

Did a shooting occur? Maybe it did. Do we know the whole story behind this? No, we don't. Any crime/tragedy used to further a political agenda needs to be carefully looked at and this is one of them. Now Obama is trying to pass gun legislation with an executive order. They're getting what they want IE: a power grab.

[AmericaFirst]

Originally Posted by Spurffelbow833

I just watched "grieving" dad for the first time. This is really blowing my mind.

I mean, what are the theories out there? That nobody really died, or that the people were murdered by black ops? This is a small town, and it's hard for me to wrap my head around the idea that there aren't people from the town calling bulls*** on this. These people all knew each other. Black ops couldn't just drop in and make up people who never existed without the Newtown residents knowing. If this dad is an actor, where are the parents of other kids screaming that he's a fake? And yet, he is so much a fake. The whole thing is just weird.

If this was a missing person's case like we saw in the Anthony case, that dad would be the prime suspect following that statement. Laughing while walking up to the podium after his kid was murdered in an elementary school and then putting on one of the worst performances I've ever seen after stepping up to the microphone. Forget all of the other stuff in that video, his reaction is creepy beyond words. He's having to work up the tears after his kid was supposedly murdered while sitting in class. I wouldn't have thought much of it had he not suddenly changed emotions from laughing (weird itself) to that terrible "grieving" performance.



Oh, and his daughter is reportedly not in any of the class pictures either.