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Old 01-09-2013, 09:59 AM   #21
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I am a hard liner who believes Rose's lifetime ban should be just that. I would never let him in, he broke the code and bet on games that he may well have tried to alter the outcome to benefit his wallet instead of the integrity of the game. His stats unequivocaly put him in, but unfortunately he got too big for his britches.

As for the guys with the gaudy numbers from the roid era, I wouldn't let any of them in. If they weren't roid heads, they should have turned in the cheaters.

They have cheapened the HOF by letting guys in who won 300 games by winning 15 for 20 years who were never dominant. They have let good players in instead of great ones. That neds to stop. If you don't have any worthy candidates, just hold a celebration with no induction.
Bonds, Clemens, and Sosa should never get in and probably not McGwire. The only hesitation I have on McGwire is he hit a legit 49 HR's his rookie year and took off games at the end to see his son born. But if I have to sacrifice him to keep the cheaters out, I would.
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Old 01-09-2013, 11:04 AM   #22
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It's widely reported and accepted that Bonds only took because he saw how much love and praise Sosa and McGwire were getting during the summer of 98 and was jealous that he didn't get near as much praise despite being a superior natural talent
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Old 01-09-2013, 11:11 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by og8trz View Post
I am a hard liner who believes Rose's lifetime ban should be just that. I would never let him in, he broke the code and bet on games that he may well have tried to alter the outcome to benefit his wallet instead of the integrity of the game. His stats unequivocaly put him in, but unfortunately he got too big for his britches.

As for the guys with the gaudy numbers from the roid era, I wouldn't let any of them in. If they weren't roid heads, they should have turned in the cheaters.

They have cheapened the HOF by letting guys in who won 300 games by winning 15 for 20 years who were never dominant. They have let good players in instead of great ones. That neds to stop. If you don't have any worthy candidates, just hold a celebration with no induction.
Bonds, Clemens, and Sosa should never get in and probably not McGwire. The only hesitation I have on McGwire is he hit a legit 49 HR's his rookie year and took off games at the end to see his son born. But if I have to sacrifice him to keep the cheaters out, I would.
He should be let in as a player. For the life of me I don't see how Bonds, Clemens and other can be considered and Pete Rose not. Those guys would not even have the same numbers without being chemically induced, so to that regard they are fake.
No one could exceed the passion of the game that Pete Rose had as a player.
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:04 PM   #24
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Just announced, no one got in.
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:11 PM   #25
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Jack Morris was a dominant pitcher over a long span, but one game is not what the HOF is about, otherwise Don Larsen is in & every hitter who ever had 4 homers in a game
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:13 PM   #26
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Really dissapointed for Craig Biggio, who I don't see any reason to have not gotten in, and an embarrassment for the Hall itself, which is a museum and really relies on the tourism and publicity it gets each year.

Sorry for Dale Murphy's family who pushed for him to get in, although as I mentioned I didn't feel he deserved to get in.

Ballot is only going to get tougher going forward with only 10 spots and Greg Maddux, Frank Thomas, Jeff Kent, Tom Glavine and Mike Mussina on the ballot next year. Jack Morris will be in his last year on the ballot.

2015 brings Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez as locks, John Smoltz a near lock, and Gary Sheffield as another big stat, PED question mark. Nomar will be on too, but see him as a guy with too short of a peak.
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:25 PM   #27
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My 2014 ballot

Greg Maddux
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Frank Thomas
Craig Biggio
Mike Piazza
Tom Glavine
Jeff Bagwell
Tim Raines
Jeff Kent

I'll have to leave Schilling off and Mussina who'd I'd give alot of consideration to with 270 wins and the 15th best winning percentage since 1950, but no Cy Youngs or No Hitters, though he came close

In 2015, assuming "clean" Maddux, Glavine and Thomas get in and no one else, I'd just replace those 3 on my ballot with Johnson, Pedro and Smoltz. Still leave those other 2 off. And I'm a keep the HOF smaller rather than larger guy. That I'd vote for 12 guys just is shocking to me, but speaks to that a few of these guys should be in already.
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:26 PM   #28
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I think the Hall of Fame is a joke these days. The players are on the ballot way too long. There is no reason to be on the ballot for so long. The stats are the stats. You are either Hall of Fame worthy or you aren't...
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:33 PM   #29
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Just for reference for those who would vote for Morris in his last year on the ballot: Jack Morris vs Mike Mussina

Games pitched and innings pitched were about even

Wins- Mussina 270 Morris 254
Record- Mussina 270-153 Morris 254-186
ERA- Mussina 3.68 Morris 3.98
(Mussina pitched in the "Steroid Era, Morris in an era geared toward pitching)
Mussina had 350 more strikeouts, 600 less walks and 130 less wild pitches

The ONLY category Morris really beats Mussina in is Complete Games, by a wide margin, 175-57. Neither won a Cy Young, Mussina finished 2nd and Morris finished 3rd twice

So there is no way to justify putting Morris in over Mussina. You could put in both, but there won't be enough of those to get Morris in.
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Old 01-09-2013, 02:38 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtVandelay View Post
I think the Hall of Fame is a joke these days. The players are on the ballot way too long. There is no reason to be on the ballot for so long. The stats are the stats. You are either Hall of Fame worthy or you aren't...
I agree. Only reason I'd give it multiple years is for the numbers crunch I mentioned earlier. Even still I'd take it down to 7 years. Still enough time to analyze a player's career with new data, but many writers now haven't ever seen the players they're voting for in Year 14/15.

Also hate the people who won't for anyone on the first ballot because "Babe Ruth wasn't a unanimous first ballot guy"
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Old 01-09-2013, 03:25 PM   #31
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Mike Piazza is probably the best offensive catcher ever to play the game. Has never been implicated in any issues steroids or otherwise and he only gets 57% of the vote!

that's crap!


if one of the best ever to play the position isn't a first ballot guy, then who is?


and I consider myself a hard-liner when it comes to eligibility.
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Old 01-09-2013, 04:41 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wuerffel5220
Really dissapointed for Craig Biggio, who I don't see any reason to have not gotten in, and an embarrassment for the Hall itself, which is a museum and really relies on the tourism and publicity it gets each year.

Sorry for Dale Murphy's family who pushed for him to get in, although as I mentioned I didn't feel he deserved to get in.

Ballot is only going to get tougher going forward with only 10 spots and Greg Maddux, Frank Thomas, Jeff Kent, Tom Glavine and Mike Mussina on the ballot next year. Jack Morris will be in his last year on the ballot.

2015 brings Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez as locks, John Smoltz a near lock, and Gary Sheffield as another big stat, PED question mark. Nomar will be on too, but see him as a guy with too short of a peak.
Biggio shouldn't be a HOFer. Being above average for a long time shouldn't make you a HOF.

I agree on Pedro but he's borderline due to a short career.
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Old 01-09-2013, 04:47 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by FrankGator627 View Post
Biggio shouldn't be a HOFer. Being above average for a long time shouldn't make you a HOF.

I agree on Pedro but he's borderline due to a short career.
6 All star games, historically top 5 in runs, top 14 in runs, 3000 hits, 414 SB, 291 HR from a 2nd baseman is good enough for me. I'd think position has to play a part, I'd agree I'd be wavering if he were an outfielder or 1st baseman
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:17 PM   #34
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so, let's get this straight. people not in the hall of fame.

all time home run leader
all time hits leader
pitcher with the most cy youngs
greatest hitting catcher of all time

etc, etc, etc.

i agree completely with the jayson stark article. at some point, righteous indignation reaches a point where everyone begins to live a lie. this era of baseball happened. you can't pretend it did not happen. you can't eliminate the greatest players from that era as if the game did not exist. i also don't presume that people prior to this era were pure as the wind driven snow.
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:42 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by 99gator View Post
so, let's get this straight. people not in the hall of fame.

all time home run leader
all time hits leader
pitcher with the most cy youngs
greatest hitting catcher of all time

etc, etc, etc.

i agree completely with the jayson stark article. at some point, righteous indignation reaches a point where everyone begins to live a lie. this era of baseball happened. you can't pretend it did not happen. you can't eliminate the greatest players from that era as if the game did not exist. i also don't presume that people prior to this era were pure as the wind driven snow.
Correct, we could make some good money starting a competing HOF
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:24 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madgator
Mike Piazza is probably the best offensive catcher ever to play the game. Has never been implicated in any issues steroids or otherwise and he only gets 57% of the vote!

that's crap!

if one of the best ever to play the position isn't a first ballot guy, then who is?

and I consider myself a hard-liner when it comes to eligibility.
Argument would be he had no business playing the position.
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:17 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnC1908

Argument would be he had no business playing the position.
But you can't argue that he did play the position and no other catcher put up the offensive numbers he did. There is a reason catchers don't put up huge offensive numbers year after year because of the wear and tear put on your body day in and day out.
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:45 AM   #38
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I suggest you ALL should look up the criteria the baseball writers are
supposed to consider when voting for HOF inductees. It includes stats.
But also includes a lot more. First portion I highlighted sets as a
criteria that a candidate for HOF must have played at least
10 seasons in MLB. This to me points to an attitude among
the founders of the HOF that they consider true greats do
it over a long career. This eliminates 'one hit wonders' from
consideration. It also points to their wanting the entire career
of a player considered, not just his 'clean' years

"Barry Bonds- greatest player of his generation, was a Hall of Famer before any alleged use.

Roger Clemens- same argument. 7 Cy Youngs, 4 of which were before any PED accusations."

the problem with the above argument is that the criteria for HOF is
to include the player's ENTIRE career....not just his 'clean' years
and ignore the rule breaking.

Shoeless Joe Jackson screwed up ONCE. According to some in
this thread he should be in the HOF based on his career up until
he F'd up. Same thing goes for Pete Rose.

here are the criteria from the HOF website---I've highlighted
criteria that seem to apply the most to this thread. And put in
bold type three criteria that folks on this board are either
unaware or don't give a sh#t about.

http://baseballhall.org/hall-famers/...election/bbwaa

"BBWAA ELECTION RULES

1. Authorization: By authorization of the Board of Directors
of the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum, Inc., the Baseball
Writers' Association of America (BBWAA) is authorized to hold an
election every year for the purpose of electing members to the National
Baseball Hall of Fame from the ranks of retired baseball players.

2. Electors: Only active and honorary members of the Baseball Writers'
Association of America, who have been active baseball writers for at
least ten (10) years, shall be eligible to vote. They must have been
active as baseball writers and members of the Association for a
period beginning at least ten (10) years prior to the date of
election in which they are voting.

3. Eligible Candidates --
Candidates to be eligible must meet the following requirements:

A. A baseball player must have been active as a player
in the Major Leagues at some time during a period beginning
twenty (20) years before and ending five (5) years prior
to election.

B. Player must have played in each of ten (10)
Major League championship seasons, some part of which
must have been within the period described in 3 (A).


C. Player shall have ceased to be an active player
in the Major Leagues at least five (5) calendar years
preceding the election but may be otherwise connected
with baseball.

D. In case of the death of an active player or a
player who has been retired for less than five (5) full
years, a candidate who is otherwise eligible shall be
eligible in the next regular election held at least six
(6) months after the date of death or after the end of
the five (5) year period, whichever occurs first.

E. Any player on Baseball's ineligible list shall
not be an eligible candidate.

4. Method of Election:

A. BBWAA Screening Committee — A Screening
Committee consisting of baseball writers will be appointed
by the BBWAA. This Screening Committee shall consist of six
members, with two members to be elected at each Annual
Meeting for a three-year term. The duty of the Screening
Committee shall be to prepare a ballot listing in
alphabetical order eligible candidates who (1) received
a vote on a minimum of five percent (5%) of the ballots
cast in the preceding election or (2) are eligible for
the first time and are nominated by any two of the six
members of the BBWAA Screening Committee.

B. Electors may vote for as few as zero (0) and
as many as ten (10) eligible candidates deemed worthy
of election. Write-in votes are not permitted.

C. Any candidate receiving votes on seventy-five
percent (75%) of the ballots cast shall be elected to
membership in the National Baseball Hall of Fame.

5. Voting: Voting shall be based upon
the player's record, playing ability, integrity,
sportsmanship, character, and contributions
to the team(s) on which the player played.


6. Automatic Elections: No automatic
elections based on performances such as a batting
average of .400 or more for one (1) year, pitching
a perfect game or similar outstanding achievement
shall be permitted.


7. Time of Election: The duly authorized representatives
of the BBWAA shall prepare, date and mail ballots to each
elector no later than the 15th day of January in each year
in which an election is held. The elector shall sign and
return the completed ballot within twenty (20) days. The
vote shall then be tabulated by the duly authorized
representatives of the BBWAA.

8. Certification of Election Results: The results of the
election shall be certified by a representative of the
Baseball Writers' Association of America and an officer
of the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum, Inc.
The results shall be transmitted to the Commissioner
of Baseball. The BBWAA and National Baseball Hall of
Fame and Museum, Inc. shall jointly release the
results for publication.

9. Amendments: The Board of Directors of the National
Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum, Inc. reserves the right t
o revoke, alter or amend these rules at any time."
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:47 AM   #39
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Agree completely mob. I don't think Ivan Rodriguez deserves in when he's eligible, but he played the position really well (though his abilites have been overrated a bit, word is he called many more fastballs with runners on base to help his ability to catch runners)
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Old 01-10-2013, 11:49 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by og8trz
I am a hard liner who believes Rose's lifetime ban should be just that. I would never let him in, he broke the code and bet on games that he may well have tried to alter the outcome to benefit his wallet instead of the integrity of the game. His stats unequivocaly put him in, but unfortunately he got too big for his britches.

As for the guys with the gaudy numbers from the roid era, I wouldn't let any of them in. If they weren't roid heads, they should have turned in the cheaters.

They have cheapened the HOF by letting guys in who won 300 games by winning 15 for 20 years who were never dominant. They have let good players in instead of great ones. That neds to stop. If you don't have any worthy candidates, just hold a celebration with no induction.
Bonds, Clemens, and Sosa should never get in and probably not McGwire. The only hesitation I have on McGwire is he hit a legit 49 HR's his rookie year and took off games at the end to see his son born. But if I have to sacrifice him to keep the cheaters out, I would.
I agree with this. If you cheated you don't deserve to be in. Period!
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