Civil War In The US?

[Lawdog88]

Originally Posted by Burke

I think we are going to have an economic collapse. What comes of it is less certain.

But people are learning that we really aren't a democracy and that the same govt that demands our obedience is in no way obedient to the Constitution.

One of the most true things you have ever posted, Burke.

[g8orbill]

I would not be surprised to see this happen

[rivergator]

Originally Posted by Matthanuf06

I just go by that kind of stuff? What does that mean? It's clear the US government has been pushing for, enacting, legislating, executive ordering items that increase the size of government and its control over its citizens. I'm not blaming just Obama. Bush, Clinton, Bush, etc all were doing the same.

I thought you were blaming it on the left?

[Matthanuf06]

Originally Posted by rivergator

I thought you were blaming it on the left?

I am. Bush was a big government necon. He was on the "right" on social issues, which in reality is a distortion of the left/ right paradigm. Bush was a big government control freak by every measure.

[rivergator]

Originally Posted by Matthanuf06

I am. Bush was a big government necon. He was on the "right" on social issues, which in reality is a distortion of the left/ right paradigm. Bush was a big government control freak by every measure.

You define the left as government control of private lives and then decide that conservatives who do are really on the left.
I don't.

Who's trying to add more and more restrictions to abortion, for example? Is that the left, too?

[G8trGr8t]

Originally Posted by Juggernautz

Well since we have already had a civil war between the South & the North, the next one should be between the East & the West.

how about the middle against the ends? the NE could migrate to europe and join their socialistic dream and California could just join Mexico.

[Matthanuf06]

Originally Posted by rivergator

You define the left as government control of private lives and then decide that conservatives who do are really on the left.
I don't.

Who's trying to add more and more restrictions to abortion, for example? Is that the left, too?

Because actions mean more than words. Look, Fox, MSNBC, Obama, CNN, Bush, et al can tell you all day long that they are liberal or conservative, but that doesn't make it so. Policies and actions make it so. And all those entities attempt to define left and right in terms that make very little sense...

Not every single position that the GOP or Democrat party attempts to enact is bad, or equally bad, or what not.

The Dems are less big government in certain areas and the GOP is in other areas. So what? The end result is it seems like the "small government" position always conveniently loses. Drugs, abortion, taxes, wars, fees, ndaa, patriot act, etc.

It sounds like you fell for the trick. You actually think there is meaningful difference between the parties, yet all "consensus" is always on the side of government.

[wgbgator]

Originally Posted by ChartsandGrafs

You're right. Please teach me in the ways of government worship. I desire to be a closet communist like you.

How do I achieve this goal?

I know, how would a book about confronting concentrated political power in a democratic society be useful to someone like you? Your current tactic of calling people sheep on internet message boards is working just fine. Bullying people anonymously is a great way to start the revolution.

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by wgbgator

I know, how would a book about confronting concentrated political power in a democratic society be useful to someone like you? Your current tactic of calling people sheep on internet message boards is working just fine. Bullying people anonymously is a great way to start the revolution.

Does being beaten about the head and shoulders, on the internet, really make you want to kill people ?

[rivergator]

Originally Posted by Matthanuf06

Because actions mean more than words. Look, Fox, MSNBC, Obama, CNN, Bush, et al can tell you all day long that they are liberal or conservative, but that doesn't make it so. Policies and actions make it so. And all those entities attempt to define left and right in terms that make very little sense...

Not every single position that the GOP or Democrat party attempts to enact is bad, or equally bad, or what not.

The Dems are less big government in certain areas and the GOP is in other areas. So what? The end result is it seems like the "small government" position always conveniently loses. Drugs, abortion, taxes, wars, fees, ndaa, patriot act, etc.

It sounds like you fell for the trick. You actually think there is meaningful difference between the parties, yet all "consensus" is always on the side of government.

So why are you so determined to blame it on the left?

[Matthanuf06]

Originally Posted by rivergator

So why are you so determined to blame it on the left?

That's the point. George Bush is on the left. So is Obama. Sure Obama is further left. And sure they disagree on some issues, but they agree far more than they disagree. Both are big government war mongering leftists.

[rivergator]

Originally Posted by Matthanuf06

That's the point. George Bush is on the left. So is Obama. Sure Obama is further left. And sure they disagree on some issues, but they agree far more than they disagree. Both are big government war mongering leftists.

nah. that's just making people fit definitions.

Like saying I've decided that Jeffrey Dahmer is a conservative because he killed and ate people.

[wgbgator]

Originally Posted by Matthanuf06

No I'm not. Clearly it's a scale. I even mentioned that its a remote possibility that the govt took enough control to forcibly remove guns in a militaristic state to cause an internal war. So clearly I think govt could get bigger. It's not binary.

But I don't see how you can see the size and scope of our govt and not conclude that it is huge. Sure it can get bigger, so what?

Clearly? So there's an objective scale of "small" and "big" government that everyone agrees on? Or is this scale one of your devising, in which "left" is all the things you oppose as "big government," with the more functions it takes on, however non ideological they are (like domestic surveilance) being evidence of drifting further "left." Basically, all you've done is define things in your favor so anything resembling totalitarianism is "left." Again, that's pretty convenient for you.

[bluelang]

So the economy is going to collapse and then we'll have a civil war to fix the economy?

Seems legit.

[rivergator]

Originally Posted by bluelang

So the economy is going to collapse and then we'll have a civil war to fix the economy?

Seems legit.

Yeah, apparently we're going to have a civil war because of the economy and the price of milk is too high. No, wait, it's because Obama is trashing the constitution and taking our guns. No, wait, it's because the federal govt has been plotting this tyranny for decades. Obama, Bush, Clinton, Reagan ... they've all been in on it.

Anyway, we're going to take up guns and start killing each for some reason. Something important.

[Lawdog88]

Originally Posted by bluelang

So the economy is going to collapse and then we'll have a civil war to fix the economy?

Seems legit.

I think one hypothetical scenario is that the economy collapses and there is civil disruption until it either "gets fixed," or the civil disruption continues until the government is no longer sustainable.

What happens in between is anybody's guess.

I do think the preppers are extreme to the fringe, but any run-of-the-mill doomsday book out there these days posits basic scenarios where either through cyber terrorism, dirty bombs, natural disasters (seems somewhat remote) or something else, the infrastructure is disabled and goods and services are disrupted. When that happens, chaos to varying degrees is predicted.

It is the chaos that many people purchasing the firearms, think that they will be able to deal with . . . at least, until the ammo runs out, until the roaming herds at the end of the driveway have been eliminated (zombies), or until a new government is formed.

That doesn't even account for a massive financial failure and inability of the government to keep and / or restore order when the currency is realized as worthless. If the government can't hold the public's faith in the currency and its value collapses, private citizens will not be very trusting either of the government, or of anyone trying to "take advantage" of the situation - in uniform or not.

Far out and fringe ? Maybe not so much any more.

[wargunfan]

Originally Posted by Burke

I think we are going to have an economic collapse. What comes of it is less certain.

But people are learning that we really aren't a democracy and that the same govt that demands our obedience is in no way obedient to the Constitution.

Americans live in a very narrow corridor of freedom of action. When added up, the total of city, state and federal regulations which channel our lives leaves us much less free than our forebears. Economically speaking, we are free to spend the smaller half of what we earn after local, state and federal taxes are extracted. Most Americans never really "own" their homes. They are allowed to live in their houses and service a 30 year mortgage which triples the cost of the property. This amounts to rent as most of us never live in one home for that length of time. The housing bubble has insured that the majority of home "buyers" will have little, if any, equity in their homes. Many are so upside down they will never own a home.

We feel betrayed by the ruling elites who exempt themselves from the onerous laws they inflict on the "governed". We feel alienated from each other as a result of concerted efforts to divide us along race and class lines. We are a long way from taking up arms against this government but the trend is not positive.

Many Americans (you see them posting here) feel that the government has become an adversary by enacting draconian measures such as the Patriot Act and the NDAA. They feel that the electoral process only produces authoritarians no matter who wins since these putatively unconstitional measures are embraced by successive administrations. They feel a helplessness which leads to rage against a government which is less and less representative of the needs of working Americans and their families. They feel trapped in an entitlement culture which they never voted for.

It would be a mistake to discredit and ridicule these people. I believe they represent a large plurality of the populace. It would take only a major dislocation of food stores or a serious pandemic or an attempt to confiscate private arms to set us against each other in violence. There would be no winners in such a senario and who can tell how far it would spread and how many would be killed before order was restored. Martial law would result and that could lead to a general insurrection. My suggestion is don't be too quick to scoff at the rage which is boiling just below the surface in much of America.

[wgbgator]

Unfortunately (or fortunately), most of that rage is boiling in the bodies of elderly men, who are closer to the grave than they are to charging the ramparts, guns blazing.

[squigator]

Originally Posted by Swampmaster

if there is war, which side should I join? north, south, east, west?

I think your choice is going to be the 47% or the 53%. If you are accustomed to receiving hand outs then you might want to start spending some of your food stamp money on ammo. Rest assured, the 53% isn't going to let you take their chit without a fight.

[Minister_of_Information]

The people who imagine that this is impossible ought to study the French Revolution.