Fiscal agreement is a fiscal disaster

[mastoidbone]

row lets be straight----this deal is a drop in bucket size of a tanker truck.
So ALL we did was raise taxes on the most productive workers in order to finance GREATER government spending.

If you tell me i pay more taxes but debt goes down fine.

That is not what dems pushed for.

They asked people to pay more taxes to allow them to keep spending too much. At same time Obama RAISED fed pay---which CBO says is already ABOVE private pay for same job and experience.


So what DID we accomplish other then financing continues waste and excess spending beyond our means?

i 100% agree we need more revenue.

But to increase revenue while INCREASING spending is democratic 101 from 1963----that has worked great for US and is why we are 16 T in the red.


I have NO PROBLEM with more taxes---AS LONG AS IT IS USED TO REDUCE DEBT while govt spending is CUT, not reduced growth----actual CUTS to ALL programs and ALL govt salaries and ALL pensions and defense, etc etc.


Increasing taxes while NOT touching spending is the WORSTE of all possible scenarios for our future.

[philip214]

Originally Posted by gatorman_07732

Those taxes aren't going to do anything to reduce the debt

That's the problem. This disingenuous argument that taxing the rich more was going to solve many of our problems. It does very little to nothing other than to get the frenzied, entitled, not very intelligent part of our population to back down a little. Those evil rich people. The issue here is eventually the majority of Americans will be taxed significantly more and some of these new taxes on the "rich" will be passed down to most Americans in some way or another. Let's all celebrate because taxes on the "rich" have gone up and many problems are solved.

[T3goalie]

Originally Posted by Row6

Apparently you would have preferred adding more to the debt by not raising any taxes. Fine, but quit pretending that's what you care about.

I would have preferred they went over the cliff and forced real pain and real reform across the board in tax and spending and stopped the nonsense. The democrats, of which i am one, held firm and crushed Boehner. In doing so they have have only made the problem worse and kicked a bigger can down the road. They have done nothing. The only ones pretending to do something are the GOP. The Dems did exactly what they wanted to do. They increased taxes, increased spending, have fractured the GOP in 1/2 and will spend till they break. I am pretending nothing. This is destructive to the Country.

[tegator80]

Pick your best assessment of what is going down.

1) It is all a ruse, that there are no differences between the aisles in congress and the "opposition" fought a heroic battle but lost. Need to keep them in place for future battles. The next "crisis" is the debt limit in February. STAY TUNED!

2) The Pub is the minority party and does not have power anymore. The House Dems had the votes to stop anything tangible to reduce spending and then Obama/Senate put them in a position to be the "bad guys" in the end. Chose to retreat rather than make a stand.

Personally, I want to believe 2) based on the limited capabilities of the American public to think for themselves but I vote for 1). Things play out so tidily for our sound bite society. The march towards cattle in corrals and overseers continues. Just need to shuffle the money and power structures a little bit more before the Master Plan gets implemented in full force.

[T3goalie]

Originally Posted by tegator80

Pick your best assessment of what is going down.

1) It is all a ruse, that there are no differences between the aisles in congress and the "opposition" fought a heroic battle but lost. Need to keep them in place for future battles. The next "crisis" is the debt limit in February. STAY TUNED!

2) The Pub is the minority party and does not have power anymore. The House Dems had the votes to stop anything tangible to reduce spending and then Obama/Senate put them in a position to be the "bad guys" in the end. Chose to retreat rather than make a stand.

Personally, I want to believe 2) based on the limited capabilities of the American public to think for themselves but I vote for 1). Things play out so tidily for our sound bite society. The march towards cattle in corrals and overseers continues. Just need to shuffle the money and power structures a little bit more before the Master Plan gets implemented in full force.

3) Political Cowardice! Your premise in 2 in incorrect. The GOP controls the House and thus controls the purse strings. The Dems have proven over the years that you can use the leverage of the House to control the debate. he who has the money rules. The Debt ceiling will be more of the same, Boehner will talk big and fold. But not before he engages is the political theatre of trying to do something. He will take the conservative base of the party out of the debate and spread his legs like a cheap whore for Pelosi, Reed and the President. He went to new lengths yesterday by taking a cram down.

[ncgatr1]

Originally Posted by GatorAbe7

The stat I am seeing is $1 of cuts for every $41 of taxes effecting 77% of households. Republicans really, really screwed the pooch voting for this one.

They are only cutting 15 billion and know one sees a problem with this? We have had 4+ years of trying to spend our way out of this recession, now all of a sudden, everyone forgets the last 4 years and Congress puts a 15 billion dollar cut on table. What the hell is going on in Washington. We have to greatly reduce spending too.

[gatorman_07732]

Originally Posted by T3goalie

3) Political Cowardice! Your premise in 2 in incorrect. The GOP controls the House and thus controls the purse strings. The Dems have proven over the years that you can use the leverage of the House to control the debate. he who has the money rules. The Debt ceiling will be more of the same, Boehner will talk big and fold. But not before he engages is the political theatre of trying to do something. He will take the conservative base of the party out of the debate and spread his legs like a cheap whore for Pelosi, Reed and the President. He went to new lengths yesterday by taking a cram down.

In all fairness 3/4 of the party voted against this bill.

[tegator80]

Originally Posted by T3goalie

3) Political Cowardice! Your premise in 2 in incorrect. The GOP controls the House and thus controls the purse strings. The Dems have proven over the years that you can use the leverage of the House to control the debate. he who has the money rules. The Debt ceiling will be more of the same, Boehner will talk big and fold. But not before he engages is the political theatre of trying to do something. He will take the conservative base of the party out of the debate and spread his legs like a cheap whore for Pelosi, Reed and the President. He went to new lengths yesterday by taking a cram down.

Your 3) is essentially my 2). Yes the Pubs control the House but the politics of today are not about who owns what but what is the perception of the American public. For a complete side note as an example, FEMA was designed to assist in keeping money flowing between the banks and those affected in a disaster and nothing more. Now they are expected to run the cleanup and hand out treats like Santa. Not because their mission has changed but because the perception of the American public has changed. So in my take they could not get something tangible passed so they lost any ability to put up an alternative idea to the American Public. The Dems maneuvered so that the House could either come along or be be seen as the bad guys, so they came along. THAT is the definition of a minority party.

But as I said, my real vote is that 1) is what is really happening. It is all theater for keeping us in our places and not paying attention to the real maneuvering.

[g8orbill]

looks like most everyone who works is going to pay higher payroll taxes

http://blog.heritage.org/2013/01/02/...Morning%2BBell

[T3goalie]

Originally Posted by gatorman_07732

In all fairness 3/4 of the party voted against this bill.

88 votes in the Senate means approx 3/4 of GOP Sen voted for the bill. Both leaders pushed for passage. Boehner took a cram down. No discussion, no amendments, nothing. Reed shoved it down Boehner's throat and pulled it out his ass.

The GOP is afraid of a fight, any fight. They more concerned with appearance of a fight to say they tried than they are with reality.

When Boehner relegated the fiscal conservatives to the sidelines 3 weeks ago he sent the message to the Dems that there would be no opposition and he basically neutered himself in negotiations. He took away all objections and it was a clear signal to the left to do as they pleased with the purse strings. I understand that we live in a media driven world, but this is pure political theater, nothing more. Leadership in the Senate and House caved and got nothing. They are a joke. They will increase the debt by another 4 trillion or more. Tax revenue will be less than projected. People will simply modify their behavior. They always do. They will not give their money to the Harlots in DC.

[gatorman_07732]

Originally Posted by T3goalie

88 votes in the Senate means approx 3/4 of GOP Sen voted for the bill. Both leaders pushed for passage. Boehner took a cram down. No discussion, no amendments, nothing. Reed shoved it down Boehner's throat and pulled it out his ass.

The GOP is afraid of a fight, any fight. They more concerned with appearance of a fight to say they tried than they are with reality.

When Boehner relegated the fiscal conservatives to the sidelines 3 weeks ago he sent the message to the Dems that there would be no opposition and he basically neutered himself in negotiations. He took away all objections and it was a clear signal to the left to do as they pleased with the purse strings. I understand that we live in a media driven world, but this is pure political theater, nothing more. Leadership in the Senate and House caved and got nothing. They are a joke. They will increase the debt by another 4 trillion or more. Tax revenue will be less than projected. People will simply modify their behavior. They always do. They will not give their money to the Harlots in DC.

I wasn't talking about the Senate and Harry Reid was not involved in the passage of the bill in the Senate.

[jimgata]

What great tax cuts. 77% of American household will pay more taxes, thanks to increase in payroll taxes. You make 50,000 a year ,you will pay 1,000 more.
Obama is getting everything he wants, while the majority still grovel at his feet.
The left still can't see the destruction that is being done to this country, but as long as everyone has their hand out and are willing to sacrifice their ethics, pride and self esteem, it will not change.
The dems, the potus and the media pushes the reps against the wall and more dems voted for the bill,but I am sure the reps will suffer the blame for this disaster of a bill.

[wgbgator]

I think most of the GOP leadership realized they have more leverage to extract cuts over the debt ceiling fight, which is basically only a month away or so. Only a small group of people and punditry are really obssesed with a "grand bargain." Now, the Dems have signed away most of their leverage there with taxes going up.

[orangeblueorangeblue]

37% of the House GOP members voted for it,

[QGator2414]

Originally Posted by T3goalie

I would have preferred they went over the cliff and forced real pain and real reform across the board in tax and spending and stopped the nonsense. The democrats, of which i am one, held firm and crushed Boehner. In doing so they have have only made the problem worse and kicked a bigger can down the road. They have done nothing. The only ones pretending to do something are the GOP. The Dems did exactly what they wanted to do. They increased taxes, increased spending, have fractured the GOP in 1/2 and will spend till they break. I am pretending nothing. This is destructive to the Country.

Yep. Though I would not claim to be a democrat...

[tegator80]

Originally Posted by wgbgator

I think most of the GOP leadership realized they have more leverage to extract cuts over the debt ceiling fight, which is basically only a month away or so. Only a small group of people and punditry are really obssesed with a "grand bargain." Now, the Dems have signed away most of their leverage there with taxes going up.

So you believe that they made a strategic retreat so that the fight could be made in better surroundings? I think the last time that happened was when the sequestration idea came up. I do not see the Tea Party getting stronger between now and the vote.

We are going down the path of complete government oversight and there isn't any really push to change course. The budget negotiations are merely a component of the overall strategy. JMHO

[wgbgator]

Originally Posted by tegator80

So you believe that they made a strategic retreat so that the fight could be made in better surroundings? I think the last time that happened was when the sequestration idea came up. I do not see the Tea Party getting stronger between now and the vote.

We are going down the path of complete government oversight and there isn't any really push to change course. The budget negotiations are merely a component of the overall strategy. JMHO

Better leverage doesn't guarantee a result. Just better leverage for getting cuts in exchange for a vote on the debt ceiling. Are house GOPers willing to spook business leaders and shut down govt if they don't get cuts? Who knows.

[jimgata]

The reps could not handle this debacle. Does anyone really they will be able to do anything to stop the USA from going bankrupt?
The reps currently have the weakest lesdership that I can remember, and that is a lot of years.

[MichiGator2002]

Steyn summarized it brilliantly -- a months-long fight yielded a "cut" that will be borrowed back in a day and a half or so. Every dime we "cut" in this deal will have been borrowed back again before kickoff of the first divisional playoff game this weekend. To that I will add, the cuts aren't cuts anyway if they are just reductions in still unrealized, planned increases.

[HALLGATOR]

According to the following the Reps got some of what they wanted and what many on here have argued long and hard for. The article also states the definition of "rich" has been increased to 450K

Yesterday, the government voted to extend almost all of the Bush Tax Cuts permanently.

Not temporarily, as a stimulus measure.

Permanently.

Ever since the Bush Tax Cuts were first enacted in 2001, one goal of the Republican party has been to "make the Bush Tax Cuts permanent."

For most of the last decade, this goal has seemed like an extremist view: Making the Bush Tax Cuts permanent would drastically reduce the federal government's revenue. It would also increase inequality and balloon the national debt and deficit--so how could we possibly justify doing that?

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily...154657208.html