The “right” to healthcare does not require....

[ATLitigator]

Originally Posted by wgbgator

Please note I have used "for all intents and purposes" as a qualifier. Even if it does not meet whatever rigid definition of rights you want to impose, it can and will be treated and refered to as such.

it is theft...just call it legalized by obama theft

[wgbgator]

Originally Posted by ATLitigator

it is theft...just call it legalized by obama theft

Yeah, yeah. Taxation is theft and what not.

[ATLitigator]

Originally Posted by wgbgator

Yeah, yeah. Taxation is theft and what not.

nice dodge, except we are talking about the "right" to healthcare and rights in general.....no one mentioned taxes

[wgbgator]

Originally Posted by ATLitigator

nice dodge, except we are talking about the "right" to healthcare and rights in general.....no one mentioned taxes

Well, you mentioned Obama ... it's probably important to point out that the SCOTUS and Obama don't think of the ACA or Healthcare as a "right" either. The court says it met the powers of the gov't to tax, while the administration held that it was empowered by the commerce clause. So, this discussion of healthcare as a "right" is academic in nature. The stakes couldnt be lower as it were.

[ATLitigator]

Originally Posted by wgbgator

Well, you mentioned Obama ... it's probably important to point out that the SCOTUS and Obama don't think of the ACA or Healthcare as a "right" either. The court says it met the powers of the gov't to tax, while the administration held that it was empowered by the commerce clause. So, this discussion of healthcare as a "right" is academic in nature. The stakes couldnt be lower as it were.

the discussion of healthcare as a right is not academic in nature....the belief of obama and his followers that healthcare is a right is one of the major driving factors behind obamacare....

the govt has no obligation to provide healthcare for you, me or anyone else. you have no right to force a doctor to provide medical care for you or anyone else and you have no right to ask the govt to do it by force...

the supreme court..those same folks once said separate but equal was legal.....

[wgbgator]

Originally Posted by Minister_of_Information

Incorrect. You cannot have a "right" that depends upon the will of some unnamed provider. What if they are unwilling? Do you have the right to force them to provide care at gunpoint?

Like any right it, it doesn't guarantee an outcome - just the right to pursue it regardless of status or means. The "right to work" doesn't ensure that I get a job, the right ot privacy doesn't guarantee I can hide anything, nor does the right to pursue happiness guarantee happiness.

[ATLitigator]

Originally Posted by wgbgator

Like any right it, it doesn't guarantee an outcome - just the right to pursue it regardless of status or means. The "right to work" doesn't ensure that I get a job, the right ot privacy doesn't guarantee I can hide anything, nor does the right to pursue happiness guarantee happiness.

you have no concept of what a right is...

right to work means that you can't be forced to join a union

right to privacy means you are free from govt intrusion into your private life

your rights are protection from the govt and others intruding into your life

[wgbgator]

Originally Posted by ATLitigator

the discussion of healthcare as a right is not academic in nature....the belief of obama and his followers that healthcare is a right is one of the major driving factors behind obamacare....

the govt has no obligation to provide healthcare for you, me or anyone else. you have no right to force a doctor to provide medical care for you or anyone else and you have no right to ask the govt to do it by force...

the supreme court..those same folks once said separate but equal was legal.....

This sounds like the only point of democracy to me. Securing basic, widely accepted rights, security, standards or whatever you want to call it through legal, democratic means for all citizens.

[wgbgator]

Originally Posted by ATLitigator

you have no concept of what a right is...

right to work means that you can't be forced to join a union

right to privacy means you are free from govt intrusion into your private life

your rights are protection from the govt and others intruding into your life

Sure I do. I'm sure we both agree that having a right to something doesn't mean that you are guaranteed to receive something. I'm sorry you think this supposed liberal "right to healthcare" means that you get healthcare on demand or people will be forced to give it to you. I don't think it means that, because then it wouldn't be a right.

[Minister_of_Information]

If the government declares that water is not wet, does that make it so?

[ATLitigator]

Originally Posted by wgbgator

Sure I do. I'm sure we both agree that having a right to something doesn't mean that you are guaranteed to receive something. I'm sorry you think this supposed liberal "right to healthcare" means that you get healthcare on demand or people will be forced to give it to you. I don't think it means that, because then it wouldn't be a right.

the "right to healthcare" that you talk about is not about healthcare on demand....

it is about a free market system where you negotiate with a doctor to come to an agreement on the care you will receive and the price you will pay for it. The "right to healthcare" you speak of requires that someone else pay for that healthcare; meaning you are stealing from someelse to pay for your healthcare.

you cannot define healthcare as a right without the expectation and the deliverance of healthcare services by force, otherwise you are describing the free market agreement for services. and if this is the case there is no need for the govt to be involved!

[gator10010]

Originally Posted by wgbgator

Yeah, yeah. Taxation is theft and what not.

The income tax is theft but I wouldn't consider sales tax theft.

[Spurffelbow833]

One way to secure this "right" is to force physicians into the same relationship to hospitals that the rest of their denizens enjoy, namely that of employees getting paychecks rather than free agents securing practice privileges, collecting deductibles and co-pays from patients and reimbursement from insurance companies.

It's already starting at the internal medicine/family medicine level. Eventually it will affect the specialties as well. As the ranks of physicians become filled more and more by women who want more flexibility in their lives than men do, they'll pay for that flexibility with their autonomy.

[egator1245]

Originally Posted by ATLitigator

so if the american people democratically decided that they had right to rob and rape every person making over a million dollars...then for all intents and purposes it is a right? .... yeah sounds pretty dumb when I say it too...

You're correct except the amount is $250,000/yr.

[gatorpa]

Originally Posted by Spurffelbow833

One way to secure this "right" is to force physicians into the same relationship to hospitals that the rest of their denizens enjoy, namely that of employees getting paychecks rather than free agents securing practice privileges, collecting deductibles and co-pays from patients and reimbursement from insurance companies.

It's already starting at the internal medicine/family medicine level. Eventually it will affect the specialties as well. As the ranks of physicians become filled more and more by women who want more flexibility in their lives than men do, they'll pay for that flexibility with their autonomy.

And a fair % will say screw that, I'll not take any Medicare, medicaid Gov ins. They will just take self pay, or commercial ins. Then it will be good luck finding a specialist if you are in the hospital for some specialties, it is already happening. Specialists are senting up their own Outpatient surgical suites and not taking call for the Hospital.
For example just try to find a hand surgeon at most ER's.

[orangeblueorangeblue]

Originally Posted by gator10010

The income tax is theft but I wouldn't consider sales tax theft.

They are fundamentally the same. If you believe one is theft, then they are all theft.

[gator10010]

Originally Posted by orangeblueorangeblue

They are fundamentally the same. If you believe one is theft, then they are all theft.

In theory I guess you might be right. The income tax is just taken from an individual, at least with a sales tax you do have an option of whether to pay that tax or not.

[orangeblueorangeblue]

Originally Posted by gator10010

In theory I guess you might be right. The income tax is just taken from an individual, at least with a sales tax you do have an option of whether to pay that tax or not.

Technically you have an option to not pay income tax, too.

[gator10010]

Originally Posted by orangeblueorangeblue

Technically you have an option to not pay income tax, too.

You can avoid paying sales tax without going to jail.

[wgbgator]

Originally Posted by gator10010

You can avoid paying sales tax without going to jail.

You can legally avoid paying income tax by choosing to have little to no taxable income too.