PP Abortions vs. firearm murders

[AzCatFan]

Originally Posted by wargunfan

Let's go back another 4 1/2 months to the point at which this woman made a volitional choice to engage in intercourse knowing that pregnancy may result. Once that pregnancy occurs she has a responsibility for the life of another individual. If she takes no action to end that life no nurturing is required and the child will come to term and be born. Finally, parents do not have the right to abdicate their rights if the death of the child will result. A woman's temporary inconvenience does not rise to the definition of slavery. However, abortion for no other reason than inconvenience, DOES rise to the definition of murder. The chasm which separates you and me is that you believe the child is nothing more than a blob of tissue which if allowed to live may have some material value and may even be loved, insofar as an atheist can engage in the emotion of love in direct contrast to their belief only in a materialistic world view. I, on the other hand, believe that the woman is carrying a living eternal soul given from God. I believe that this soul has intrinsic value and deserves love because it is God given. I believe that it is a woman's denial of the worth of this soul that allows her to callously end the life of a real person. She has to lie to herself and pretend that it is only tissue that she is killing. This is why there is so much regret and sorrow expressed by women who have killed their unborn babies. They know they have killed a living soul who deserved to be loved. That is my world view. You must borrow from my world view in order to have love and caring and sentimentality towards those persons you value. Without borrowing from the Christian world view those you love are nothing more than older blobs of tissue.

Your ignorance of atheism makes it very difficult to for you to understand those different than you. My best guess is that you believe people must worship something, and atheists replace a deity with materialism and that is what we worship. I can assure you, I'm not a materialistic person, and do not worship materials. I can also assure you that I love, and love incredibly deeply, and I do not need to borrow anything from you to do so. I've been married for over 15 years to a wonderful woman, and we've been together for over 20 (met in high school). I have an amazing 7-year-old daughter that I love unconditionally, as any parent, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, atheist, etc., would love their own child. I also have a rotty/shepherd mix that is 14-years old that probably won't be around this time next year. I can tell you, I love him so much that when his time finally comes, I'll be a basket case.

I also believe the fetus to be alive, but regardless of what you believe, I understand that between a pregnant woman that doesn't want to carry to term and the fetus, there is a competition of rights. And for every other case, I would argue that life takes precedence, in the case of a pregnant woman that wants an abortion, I feel I do not have the right to tell a woman that she must carry to term regardless of her desires. Just the same way I would never force a person to give up a kidney to save a life, as another person's body is not my dominion; it should be their own. I can plead, beg, and make the best case for a person to give up their kidney to save another person's life, just as I can do the same to attempt to convince a pregnant woman to carry to term, but the bottom line is their body is their own, and not mine to dictate what to do.

Again, it's not a black and white thing, as I would argue one's rights ends when impedes on the rights of another, and certainly, abortion impedes the fetus' right to live. But we go back to the competing rights between the pregnant woman and the fetus, and the fact that the fetus is completely and wholly dependant on the individual pregnant woman, and only the individual pregnant woman for life. And because of that reason, I believe the woman has ultimate authority. Again, anyone who asks my opinion, I would argue that is almost all cases to carry to term. But it's not my body, and ultimately, not my decision.

[g8orbill]

azcaat- we should always protect the unborn child

[wygator]

One of the important measures of the character of a society is how it treats the weakest and most helpless among us. How are we doing?

[AzCatFan]

How far are we willing to go to protect the unborn? You can try everything to convince a woman to carry to term, but what do you do with the pregnant woman at the start of the second trimester hell bent on abortion? Do you hold her against her will and care for her for 6 months? Do you think outlawing abortion will stop them from happening? Do you think preventing women from going into a clinic will prevent women from trying dangerous things at home? Again, how far are we willing to go?

The best answer is to prevent unwanted pregnancies. It is not that difficult. Want to end abortion, don't attack the supply, which performs a necessary evil (again, look at the alternatives). Best way is to limit demand. And if every woman who got pregnant felt blessed to do so, abortions would plummet.

[wygator]

Originally Posted by AzCatFan

How far are we willing to go to protect the unborn? You can try everything to convince a woman to carry to term, but what do you do with the pregnant woman at the start of the second trimester hell bent on abortion? Do you hold her against her will and care for her for 6 months? Do you think outlawing abortion will stop them from happening? Do you think preventing women from going into a clinic will prevent women from trying dangerous things at home? Again, how far are we willing to go?

The best answer is to prevent unwanted pregnancies. It is not that difficult. Want to end abortion, don't attack the supply, which performs a necessary evil (again, look at the alternatives). Best way is to limit demand. And if every woman who got pregnant felt blessed to do so, abortions would plummet.

We agree that prevention isn't difficult, but we are still apparently are having at least 3/4 million unwanted pregnancies per year. It remains unimportant, or inconvenient for many. When you consider the availability of "free" contraception in high schools, colleges and planned parenthood, what more would you suggest to "limit demand"?

On the supply side, I think balancing the life of the baby against a few months of pregnancy is a no brainer on the side of the baby. You obviously think differently.

Considering the "necessary evils" is a cop-out. I think if you ask most people if they would rather be raised in challenging poverty, or to be aborted, I think most folks would prefer their shot at life. I know I would.

Aren't you glad your mother didn't "choose" abortion?

[ufhomerj31]

Have there been any cases were a pregnant woman is killed and the murder has been charged with both the mother and unborn Childs death?

[wygator]

Originally Posted by ufhomerj31

Have there been any cases were a pregnant woman is killed and the murder has been charged with both the mother and unborn Childs death?

Thanks for bringing this up. Scott Peterson was convicted of double homicide. There's a real irony in this:

Currently, at least 38 states have fetal homicide laws. The states include: Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Nebraska, Nevada, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia and Wisconsin. At least 23 states have fetal homicide laws that apply to the earliest stages of pregnancy ("any state of gestation," "conception," "fertilization" or "post-fertilization"); these are indicated below with an asterisk (*).

OK for the mom to kill their baby in the womb...no one else, except their abortionist, I guess.

You can see the detailed laws by state at the link:

http://www.ncsl.org/issues-research/...tate-laws.aspx

[AzCatFan]

Originally Posted by wygator

We agree that prevention isn't difficult, but we are still apparently are having at least 3/4 million unwanted pregnancies per year. It remains unimportant, or inconvenient for many. When you consider the availability of "free" contraception in high schools, colleges and planned parenthood, what more would you suggest to "limit demand"?

On the supply side, I think balancing the life of the baby against a few months of pregnancy is a no brainer on the side of the baby. You obviously think differently.

Considering the "necessary evils" is a cop-out. I think if you ask most people if they would rather be raised in challenging poverty, or to be aborted, I think most folks would prefer their shot at life. I know I would.

Aren't you glad your mother didn't "choose" abortion?

There are still those who believe in abstinance only education, which doesn't work. And with all the education out there, the amount of ignorance around still abounds. Just take a quick read:

It’s also how you get figures like the one from the CDC that found that 31.4 percent of pregnant teens didn’t use contraception because they "thought they could not get pregnant at the time."

There's severel hundred thousand unwanted pregnancies right there that can be prevented with proper education. In short, we aren't doing anywhere near enough.

And you still didn't answer the question. Sure, I'm thrilled my mother chose life, but what can you do/how far are you willing to go to protect the fetus of a pregnant woman that is hell-bent on abortion? Should we have pregnancy internment camps for those who don't want to carry to term? Live-in life counselors that prevent at-home abortion attempts? Where do you draw the line? I agree the 9 months of pregnancy is a small price for the woman to pay when it comes to saving a life, but is it your choice and your body?

[wygator]

Originally Posted by AzCatFan

There are still those who believe in abstinance only education, which doesn't work. And with all the education out there, the amount of ignorance around still abounds. Just take a quick read:



There's severel hundred thousand unwanted pregnancies right there that can be prevented with proper education. In short, we aren't doing anywhere near enough.

And you still didn't answer the question. Sure, I'm thrilled my mother chose life, but what can you do/how far are you willing to go to protect the fetus of a pregnant woman that is hell-bent on abortion? Should we have pregnancy internment camps for those who don't want to carry to term? Live-in life counselors that prevent at-home abortion attempts? Where do you draw the line? I agree the 9 months of pregnancy is a small price for the woman to pay when it comes to saving a life, but is it your choice and your body?

You made my point. Plenty of resources out there already. Some will still be willfully ignorant. Life lessons are hard sometimes.

Again, I contend that the woman gives up her right to terminate a human life when she decides to have sex. It isn't her body either...it is a distinct different human being.

I also believe the man creates an obligation to help support and care for the woman and the baby when he makes the sex decision. Rather primitive...I know. Honor, character...that sort of thing which is absent from most of your arguments.

No, I don't favor internment, but laws against providing abortion. Their "choice" whether or not to break the law and commit murder. Probably work about as well as gun laws do, but at least the law will be on the right side rather than enabling murder.

[AzCatFan]

Originally Posted by wygator

You made my point. Plenty of resources out there already. Some will still be willfully ignorant. Life lessons are hard sometimes.

Again, I contend that the woman gives up her right to terminate a human life when she decides to have sex. It isn't her body either...it is a distinct different human being.

I also believe the man creates an obligation to help support and care for the woman and the baby when he makes the sex decision. Rather primitive...I know. Honor, character...that sort of thing which is absent from most of your arguments.

No, I don't favor internment, but laws against providing abortion. Their "choice" whether or not to break the law and commit murder. Probably work about as well as gun laws do, but at least the law will be on the right side rather than enabling murder.

Honor and character are great, but how do you instill them? And does that help the woman who is pregnant and doesn't want to be? Does changing the law back to making abortion illegal help her? Or will it force her to attempt to terminate her pregnancy in other, more dangerous ways?

For the most part, we are on the same side. The difference is I understand that abortion is a necessary evil, especially given the alternatives. It's ugly, but then reality isn't always pretty and nice. And given the alternatives, I choose to keep abortions safe and legal, and yes, rare. And while there are plenty of resources out there, we can still do worlds better, especially when nearly 1 in 3 pregnant teenagers believe they couldn't get pregnant at the time they had sex. Clearly, the sex education message didn't get through completely.

[wygator]

Originally Posted by AzCatFan

Honor and character are great, but how do you instill them? And does that help the woman who is pregnant and doesn't want to be? Does changing the law back to making abortion illegal help her? Or will it force her to attempt to terminate her pregnancy in other, more dangerous ways?

For the most part, we are on the same side. The difference is I understand that abortion is a necessary evil, especially given the alternatives. It's ugly, but then reality isn't always pretty and nice. And given the alternatives, I choose to keep abortions safe and legal, and yes, rare. And while there are plenty of resources out there, we can still do worlds better, especially when nearly 1 in 3 pregnant teenagers believe they couldn't get pregnant at the time they had sex. Clearly, the sex education message didn't get through completely.

Sometimes people learn honor and character when they are forced to confront uncomfortable realities.

The safe, legal and rare quote is nice, and a great goal, but nearly 1 in 4 pregnancies ending in abortion is nowhere near rare. We have a very long way to go. If we cut the abortion rate by 90%, you'd still be looking at the equivalent of 10 Newtown shootings per day, every day.

[wargunfan]

Originally Posted by AzCatFan

Your ignorance of atheism makes it very difficult to for you to understand those different than you. My best guess is that you believe people must worship something, and atheists replace a deity with materialism and that is what we worship. I can assure you, I'm not a materialistic person, and do not worship materials. I can also assure you that I love, and love incredibly deeply, and I do not need to borrow anything from you to do so. I've been married for over 15 years to a wonderful woman, and we've been together for over 20 (met in high school). I have an amazing 7-year-old daughter that I love unconditionally, as any parent, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, atheist, etc., would love their own child. I also have a rotty/shepherd mix that is 14-years old that probably won't be around this time next year. I can tell you, I love him so much that when his time finally comes, I'll be a basket case.

I also believe the fetus to be alive, but regardless of what you believe, I understand that between a pregnant woman that doesn't want to carry to term and the fetus, there is a competition of rights. And for every other case, I would argue that life takes precedence, in the case of a pregnant woman that wants an abortion, I feel I do not have the right to tell a woman that she must carry to term regardless of her desires. Just the same way I would never force a person to give up a kidney to save a life, as another person's body is not my dominion; it should be their own. I can plead, beg, and make the best case for a person to give up their kidney to save another person's life, just as I can do the same to attempt to convince a pregnant woman to carry to term, but the bottom line is their body is their own, and not mine to dictate what to do.

Again, it's not a black and white thing, as I would argue one's rights ends when impedes on the rights of another, and certainly, abortion impedes the fetus' right to live. But we go back to the competing rights between the pregnant woman and the fetus, and the fact that the fetus is completely and wholly dependant on the individual pregnant woman, and only the individual pregnant woman for life. And because of that reason, I believe the woman has ultimate authority. Again, anyone who asks my opinion, I would argue that is almost all cases to carry to term. But it's not my body, and ultimately, not my decision.

You sound like a decent person who loves his family. Perhaps some day science will rescue women from this awful decision and save the baby as well. One day it may be possible to transplant the unborn baby into a surrogate mother who could not otherwise have children or who will give the baby up for adoption. In the meantime we will go on killing the weakest of our brothers and sisters for no excusable reason.

[GatorFanCF]

Human nature being what it is we usually choose the reactive (abortion) in lieu of the proactive (birth control).
Our "leaders" wait until the last minute to resolve a conflict of the own making 13 months ago.
Students will (usually) wait until the 11th hour to study and/or write that term paper.
Most of us spend beyond our means, and at old age are dependent on additional work ("welcome to Walmart"), government (SS), or family.
If abortion is legal many people will default to that option as it requires no planning, is convenient (sex at any time), and can often be paid by someone else (Father-government) - it fits our human nature perfectly! What's not to love a few dozen milliion creations for convenience sake?

[corpgator]

Those so against abortion should be working in two ways to stop it: preventing pregnancy as already discussed here, and matching those who want to adopt with mothers who want to abort. Can't we come up with laws allowing for potential parents to incentivize women to not abort?

[MichiGator2002]

It shouldn't take a law. Social stigma used to do the job of getting irresponsible or indecent people to take responsibility for the children they conceive as a consentual product of consentual sex. For that matter, it did a passing fair job of getting people to be at least somewhat judicious about when, with whom, and gotten they had sex at all. We don't need to issue government licenses, we need to withdraw some social licenses.

[wargunfan]

A couple of generations ago if a girl got in a "family way" (you didn't even use the word pregnant) she went away for a while. Several months later she returned from her "sabbatical" and that was that. The social stigma of an out of wedlock pregnancy was enough to guarantee that the baby would be born and put up for adoption in another city (usually where a relative lived). Illegal abortions resulted in long prison terms for the perpetrators and as a result abortions were unsafe and truly rare. A woman dying from a botched abortion is a horrible thought but to me 53,000,000 abortions is a national sin of gigantic proportions. Actions have consequences and I think abortion should be illegal and life in prison for an abortion provider sounds about right.

[g8orbill]

I have to ask why women continue to have unprotected sex

[busigator96]

Originally Posted by g8orbill

I have to ask why women continue to have unprotected sex

Because it feels better?

[GatorFanCF]

I have to ask why women continue to have unprotected sex


Read more: http://www.gatorcountry.com/swampgas...#ixzz2GPPjFe6C

See my post above: it's more pleasurable (per busigator), it's more convenient (fun, spontaneous sex), there is minimal stigma of being unwed; and, our tremendous capitalistic machine has made abortion relatively accessible and reasonably priced. It's a brave new world.

so weve got the pandering, the fundie nonsense, and all the grumpy old men weighing in on a womans right to her own body...

but what we dont have is.... FUN.

far too stuffy with all these negative ideologies being bandied about...lighten up fellas

its as american as apple pie and colorado koolaid...youll feel better if you just let it go