I am Tired of KY Basketball being a Mockery of NCAABB

[Go2gtr]

Originally Posted by gobigblue

and Billy is doing his best for you - by recruiting elite 1-and-done talent!

That makes you feel all warm inside. When the 04s just gutted the cats you were twisting in agony because all we had was one McDAA, and he was rejected by KY! So slimy Cal forcing Billy into this one-and-done merry-go-round feels like victory to you. KY fans in general seem like soulless bastards.

[themistocles]

What I really don't understand about Cali is that he was always an excellent recruiter, but somehow, when he got to Kentucky, for some reason, he became an ungodly recruiter.

Billy D was an incredible recruiter when he came to Florida. In all of history, prior to Billy D, Florida had landed 3 McDonalds AA players, yet he got 4 in his first 3 years.

Now Kentucky has a lot of history to attract prospects, but something appears amiss given how many of the top players select the Cats each year. I realize that offering a mother a job at $150,000 per year is not illegal, but I, as Downtown noted, wonder whether this is an ethical approach to recruiting (Ohhh Wait - Ethics and High End NCAA Athletics - whoops sorry about that, obviously those two don't mix very well).

[REM08]

Originally Posted by themistocles

What I really don't understand about Cali is that he was always an excellent recruiter, but somehow, when he got to Kentucky, for some reason, he became an ungodly recruiter.

Billy D was an incredible recruiter when he came to Florida. In all of history, prior to Billy D, Florida had landed 3 McDonalds AA players, yet he got 4 in his first 3 years.

Now Kentucky has a lot of history to attract prospects, but something appears amiss given how many of the top players select the Cats each year. I realize that offering a mother a job at $150,000 per year is not illegal, but I, as Downtown noted, wonder whether this is an ethical approach to recruiting (Ohhh Wait - Ethics and High End NCAA Athletics - whoops sorry about that, obviously those two don't mix very well).

Almost like Urban Meyer wasn't quite pulling in the kind of classes at Utah as he was at Florida?

You say Billy was an incredible recruiter when he came to Florida. Are you implying Cal wasn't when he came to Kentucky? You can't be.

Jobs offered by Duke and UNC (think Hansborough, Duhon) make Brandon Knight's Mom's job (from the company of a booster - not from the school or Cal) seem piddly in comparison. If you're trying to tie these kind of "ethics" to Cals recent success, it doesn't explain why schools/coaches who have done this much more blatantly haven't had similar success.

Also, watch ESPN's current "all access" series with Kentucky. If you think the only difference between Kentucky and UMass or Memphis is "history," you're mistaken. There isn't a mid-major coach in the country that wouldn't recruit significantly better at one of the nations few blue-blooded programs. Also, recruiting comes in cycles. To a degree, the stars are somewhat aligned with him right now given the current structure of college basketball. With the one and done rule and Cal's recent "success" in the NBA draft, his perception by many top recruits has created a wave he's currently riding.

[UFG8rGuy3283]

Originally Posted by REM08

Almost like Urban Meyer wasn't quite pulling in the kind of classes at Utah as he was at Florida?

You say Billy was an incredible recruiter when he came to Florida. Are you implying Cal wasn't when he came to Kentucky? You can't be.

Jobs offered by Duke and UNC (think Hansborough, Duhon) make Brandon Knight's Mom's job (from the company of a booster - not from the school or Cal) seem piddly in comparison. If you're trying to tie these kind of "ethics" to Cals recent success, it doesn't explain why schools/coaches who have done this much more blatantly haven't had similar success.

Also, watch ESPN's current "all access" series with Kentucky. If you think the only difference between Kentucky and UMass or Memphis is "history," you're mistaken. There isn't a mid-major coach in the country that wouldn't recruit significantly better at one of the nations few blue-blooded programs. Also, recruiting comes in cycles. To a degree, the stars are somewhat aligned with him right now given the current structure of college basketball. With the one and done rule and Cal's recent "success" in the NBA draft, his perception by many top recruits has created a wave he's currently riding.

Agree with this for the most part.

I think the issue is with the NCAA, not the schools or coaches. Ethics, as we once knew them are a thing of the past. Now, you do everything you can to win within the rules or you will be replaced by someone who will. It doesn't make it right, per say, but it's reality.

It was Billy pushing the limits on rules like showing up at Mike Millers house at midnight or something to that effect?

Again, I do not like what Cal is doing but I think there is a good case to be made that if the NCAA actually cared about the integrity of major college sports, USC and OSU would not be relevant in football for the next several years.

[tupacbiff]

Full access edited out the cheating.

[llm85]

Originally Posted by tupacbiff

Full access edited out the cheating.

I missed it, but from your description I would assume that there was nothing on.

[dailydoublecat]

We all know it goes in cycles. Kentucky and Calipari are a tough duo right now but it will fade it always does. I hope the UK fans are living in the moment and cherishing this recruiting as we won't see anything close to this in a few years.
Jeff

[Gatuar]

I don't even get that worked up by Kentucky beating UF in basketball because they probably should. Our two NC's will last me a lifetime

But watching that all - access and the approach you guys use was disturbing. not saying its against any rules in a book but it's just makes Cal look like a slime ball

Hey you'll get more NC's though...so enjoy it. Finishing 2nd to your "program" really doesn't piss anybody off considering the tactics used to get there

[dailydoublecat]

Originally Posted by Gatuar

I don't even get that worked up by Kentucky beating UF in basketball because they probably should. Our two NC's will last me a lifetime

But watching that all - access and the approach you guys use was disturbing. not saying its against any rules in a book but it's just makes Cal look like a slime ball

Hey you'll get more NC's though...so enjoy it. Finishing 2nd to your "program" really doesn't piss anybody off considering the tactics used to get there

What approach are you talking about?

[REM08]

Originally Posted by Gatuar

I don't even get that worked up by Kentucky beating UF in basketball because they probably should. Our two NC's will last me a lifetime

But watching that all - access and the approach you guys use was disturbing. not saying its against any rules in a book but it's just makes Cal look like a slime ball

Hey you'll get more NC's though...so enjoy it. Finishing 2nd to your "program" really doesn't piss anybody off considering the tactics used to get there

I'm not trying to attack your opinion, I respect it, I just don't understand. Do you mean recruiting the best possible players - you know, the ones everyone else is after also - and then doing what any honest coach (including Billy) would do at the end of the year and not misinform the kids or attempt to hold them back? Instead, they allow the kids to make the best decision for them and their families - helping as much as possible by doing things like having actual NBA scouts come and watch the kids and give them feedback. Realize this is what Billy did with Beal last year - only with multiple Brad Beals. In case you dont realize how much it is like this, you'll get to see it next year if Billy lands the players he wants most.

I know you're not talking about rule breaking, but I still don't see what negative you could gleam from the show so far. Is it just that it runs counter to the romanticism of old school college basketball before the one and done rule? Having to learn a mostly new team each year? I know that one is tiresome to many UK fans I know. I just don't see how any of this qualifies as questionable or undesirable "tactics."

[tupacbiff]

Originally Posted by REM08

I'm not trying to attack your opinion, I respect it, I just don't understand. Do you mean recruiting the best possible players - you know, the ones everyone else is after also - and then doing what any honest coach (including Billy) would do at the end of the year and not misinform the kids or attempt to hold them back? Instead, they allow the kids to make the best decision for them and their families - helping as much as possible by doing things like having actual NBA scouts come and watch the kids and give them feedback. Realize this is what Billy did with Beal last year - only with multiple Brad Beals. In case you dont realize how much it is like this, you'll get to see it next year if Billy lands the players he wants most.

I know you're not talking about rule breaking, but I still don't see what negative you could gleam from the show so far. Is it just that it runs counter to the romanticism of old school college basketball before the one and done rule? Having to learn a mostly new team each year? I know that one is tiresome to many UK fans I know. I just don't see how any of this qualifies as questionable or undesirable "tactics."

Let the uk fans continue to bury their heads in the sand regarding the cheating. Pathetic uk fans are utter pathetic.

[intimigator1]

Originally Posted by REM08

I can actually respect this type of opinion - most of it at least. You hate one and dones. Thats fine. At least you're consistent and hate your own one and dones also. Most fans would just make some sort of justification for why its different or acceptable (its not as many...etc etc etc).

I still can't fathom WHY you'd despise Brad Beal having played a year as a Gator - while going to classes and being an overall great kid. Tell me this, did you love other guys on last years team more than you liked Beal? Okay. How many of them would be Gators this year if they could have been picked number 3 in the draft last summer? None of them. You wouldn't have a team this year. You'd have walkons and borrowed players from the women's team. Quit fooling yourself that you're cheering for kids that come from superior moral fiber or integrity - kids without egos or personal ambition. You're cheering for kids that didn't have the same decision to make.

I wonder what you would tell your son if he was in such a position. Would you make him commit to getting a college degree before he moved on to NBA stardom? Would his only other option be Europe or the D-league for a year? If he had Billy in your living room saying that he could play at Florida for however long he felt was necessary in the best interest of him and his family and that at the end of the year Billy would advise him by use of his own experience and his contacts in the NBA about what his options were, would you actually insist that this wasn't a possibility for your son? I seriously doubt it.

That being said, at least you're consistent.

Without a doubt the answer is yes. I would expect him to follow through on his commitment to his team and his school and a degree would be mandatory. It's not about the money it's about character. You must understand that I started watching college ball in 1970 and it was all about team then..even the superstars stayed till the end and then went on to the pros. Never hurt them and is more admirable than some punk spending a few months wasting everyone's time so that he can play in the NBA. Like I said...there is way more to this than winning a championship and if my son were to get a college scholly then he will certainly fulfill his obligation and stay until he graduates.

[jmoliver]

I get tired of eveyone saying that Cal and UK are doing something wrong. If they are please call and report them. College athletics are changing and the NCAA is also changing. The money is way to huge to not change. Things that got us in trouble in the '80 wouldnt get a retunred call from the NCAA today. The NCAA is not going to chase or investigate a parent or relative getting a job or a recruit driving a nice car. It just isnt going to happen. They would not have investigated Reggie Bush if it didnt get into the court system. Basketball is so much dirtier than football but football is catching up quickly.

By the way, I see on multiple boards that certain schools distance themselves from everone else by calling themselves "blue bloods". Just what the hell is this? How do you get into the club? Do you have to have championships in the 50s to count? XYZ wont look at Florida because he is only looking at blue bloods. New lingo for basketball first schools?

[tegator80]

Let me go WAY out there and bring in a football simile. When FSU brought in Weinke and then won a National Championship - along with him winning the Heisman - I thought that football had lost it's mind, especially about the Heisman. OF COURSE 27 year-olds are going to be more developed emotionally and physically than 18-22 year olds, but the rules allowed it. But my feeling was that if my university pulled a stunt like that, I would question its priorities and take that into consideration my future alliances. Yes, Doug Johnson was sort of like that but he was more or a student with financial means than a fully mature man playing with kids.

I think that Alabama in football and Kentucky in basketball were faced with realities that did not meet their ideals and have had to make choices. The question is if their unequivocal football/basketball factories are going to remain endearing to their constituents in the long haul. Back to basketball and Kentucky, I can't imagine when the UK faithful get around talking about their legacies in the future, the names of Michael Gilchrist and Anthony Davis are going to be held in the same place as Jamal Mashburn and Tayshaun Prince. But they still get the banner in the rafter.

And as I have posted before, there is nothing wrong with the One-and-done getting you to the promised land...if they are the final piece. But a team made up entirely of them and done repeatedly it is not my idea of a program that I personally want to cheer. JMHO

[REM08]

Originally Posted by jmoliver

I get tired of eveyone saying that Cal and UK are doing something wrong. If they are please call and report them. College athletics are changing and the NCAA is also changing. The money is way to huge to not change. Things that got us in trouble in the '80 wouldnt get a retunred call from the NCAA today. The NCAA is not going to chase or investigate a parent or relative getting a job or a recruit driving a nice car. It just isnt going to happen. They would not have investigated Reggie Bush if it didnt get into the court system. Basketball is so much dirtier than football but football is catching up quickly.

By the way, I see on multiple boards that certain schools distance themselves from everone else by calling themselves "blue bloods". Just what the hell is this? How do you get into the club? Do you have to have championships in the 50s to count? XYZ wont look at Florida because he is only looking at blue bloods. New lingo for basketball first schools?

Yeah I even hesitated typing that. I too read it a lot and I actually think it usually comes across as arrogant. I don't think recruits care about titles won in the 1950s. I think the 90's seem fairly irrelevant to most recruits these days. I used the term as a lazy way of referring to the group of schools that traditionally have the most success and are the ones the average person will think of most quickly when they think of the sport. Actually, I think the term has more to do with perception than anything else. Kentucky, UCLA and Indiana are considered "blue bloods" by most, yet each school has been quite irrelevant recently. Schools like this exist in football also obviously. My ONLY point in how I used the term was a general way of saying that any coach that moves from a mid-major to a significantly better platform should have at the very least a little easier time recruiting.

[phideltdj]

Jeff's right...you always take the talent it is the number one factor in all levels of basketball. All nba players are good but the top talent wins championships. Sometimes coaching and 4 year players can win you an upset in college but talent will prove out over a season.

[jmoliver]

Thanks for the response REM. it wasn't your use it was more on the national recruiting boards. The fans of those teams will never take UF serious in basketball because we are not a blue blood or more accurately a basketball first school.
Heck, we still get it in football because somehow being good for the last thirty years or so is doesn't count. We need a championship with a leather helmet.

[Gatuar]

I've finally figured it out....it reminds me of the MTV show, "The Real World Lexington"

"Watch what happens when 5 All-Americans....picked to live in a gymnasium...."' you get the point.

Tell me this, Cal brings in 5 studs but 3 of them actually arent' ready for the pros, so his "system" now has a bottleneck. What does he do then?

[REM08]

jmoliver - Agree its odd how fanbases all make up their own rules to brag by. IMO, you guys actually have the trump card (one I'd trade for) in that you're relevant in the two sports that matter. Not many schools can say that.

Gatuar - I see what you're getting at, but the flaw is in your presumption that Cal pushes guys out the door to the NBA. This has been perpetuated by quotes Cal has made about how he'd "wrestle" Anthony Davis to the floor if he tried to come back. He made similar statements about John Wall and Derrick Rose. He's not forcing Daniel Orton out, not Patterson, not Eric Bledsoe etc.

In your example what would happen is that the 2 "studs" that were ready, would leave for the NBA, and the other 3 would return. Jones and Lamb both returned for last year. I don't expect all to leave from this year. Cal has only used all 13 scholarships in one of his four years at UK - and thats including the fact that he's always had a couple walk-ons with year to year scholarships just because they weren't being used. He has 3 of those this year and still has one left over. If ANYTHING, lets say Davis came back for some crazy reason this year, Maybe Noel doesn't pick Kentucky. Players are drafted so much on potential that its not absolutely required that they start and play a ton of minutes in order to get the necessary attention. Daniel Orton cracked the first round while not starting and averaging 3 points and 3 rebounds a game. John Wall and Brandon Knight play on the same team? You're telling me that means one isn't a lottery pick?

[Gatuar]

put it this way....it feels like to the rest of College Baskbetall that's not Duke, UNC or Kansas and it may very well be that way for them soon that it's not a level playing field.

For a sport that decides their champion in one of the most celebrated tournaments in sports with the Final 4 I feel it's a shame this is where we are headed

First time as a basketball fan I've ever felt this way....and I've been following for about 25 years. Why not just make college basketbal a developmental league? For UK it's no longer a college sport