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Not sure why no one has logs ITF, but I'm going to post mine, especially since I continually am derailing other more specific threads with my problems and for some motivation.
Background:
On 1/1/10: 5'7", 135 lbs, "skinny fat" & insanely weak
Did SS(Starting Strength) & PPAN(Practical Programming Advanced Novice) while eating anything & everything & got to 175, around 20-24% BF. Got to:
Squat: 245
Bench:140
Press: 92.5
DL: 265
Front Squat: 155
Had a bicep tendon injury and also started a manual labor job(I quit lifting) that has killed my strength & lifts. Maintained by weight through a meh diet, so:
On 8/4/11: 5'7"(still I know), 173 lbs, 20-24% bf, fairly weak
I have struggled with the issue of whether to:
A)Cut to 10-12% BF before adding mass again. Pros:
-Seems to be universally agreed upon that starting 10-12(maybe 10-15%) will allow optimal mass gains going forward. By optimal, I mean the highest ratio of muscle to fat possible.
-Somewhat agreed upon that starting here will prevent you from adding fat(which ties into the 1st pro)
-You look super sexy.
Cons:
-Spend more time bouncing between bulking & cutting & thus changing your diet, as to not reach a high bf% before cutting again
-You will lose at least some strength, and the amount is widely debated and will depend on genetics, form, current lifts, bf%, etc.
-You will miss out on the potential for novice/beginner strength gains assuming you already do not fall into that 10-12%(or close to it) and you are a beginner/novice.
-Lifting form can deteriorate with strength loss.
-Potential to lose LBM even if diet is really well followed
B)Maintain my current BF% & continue to push for all possible linear gains I have left as a novice. When my progress slows, add a small calorie surplus
Pros:
-Get to stay a bit stronger during process
-Take advantage of all possible gains
-Less wasted time fluctuating diet(in the immediate future)
-Shouldn't have a problem dropping into a mid teen range of bf%
-Can always cut down to 10-12% later on if so desired
Cons:
-Less than optimal gains(fat:muscle ratio is higher)
-More prone to regaining fat later on
-Don't get to look super sexy until I make a final cut
I don't want to drag this on, and will definitely deserve it's own thread. Some of my points on both sides can be strengthened, weakened, or even maybe refuted.
I've done a lot of research on both sides, and it comes down that everyone needs to make their own decision. Option B will make me the happiest now & in the future, so I'm going that route. I like it, because I can always roll back to Option A with little side effect.
Location: Wherever I am I doing fine. I am here for a good not a long time.
Posts: 12,602
Good stuff TFG.
When choosing between option A or B I guess you need to really decide what your ideal body composition will be and how you want to achieve it. If you want to get to 12% now you need to lose 20 pounds, no small achievement. So, assuming you make not LBM gains during your cut that puts you back at 150 but probably looking pretty good.
Now if you want to be a bit bigger once leaning out it would probably be easier to put the muscle on now and then lose the 20 pounds down the road. You will eventually need to lose that weight if you want to be 12% it just may take longer to add on the size you want if you cut first.
tru, I may be in a minority around here but I just don't believe you have to bulk-and-cut at all. I'll have my son's story up on my blog as early as Monday. It may be enlightening for you.
tru, I may be in a minority around here but I just don't believe you have to bulk-and-cut at all. I'll have my son's story up on my blog as early as Monday. It may be enlightening for you.
I know, we discussed a lot & I threw the pros/cons back & forth. I have threads on Lyle's forums, SS forum, another forum I highly respect. It boils down to, I'm still a very novice, weak lifter, so I'm going to take advantage of the progression I can get under SS for one last time, while at maintenance & then a small surplus if needed. I could actually lose bf%, keep it the same, or a small gain if I eat well, so not worried about it. We can discuss further in another thread that should certainly be a mainstay of this forum. At worst, you can guys can laugh at me and use me as a guinea pig, although it would be silly to be results oriented about 1 guy who already has used up his optimal timeframe on SS before prior to injury, but I still think it's the best program for me ATT. I'm not quite fat enough to warrant doing SS at a deficit. All in all, I like that I can ALWAYS go with the cut option later down the road. Let's save this for another thread.
I know, we discussed a lot & I threw the pros/cons back & forth. I have threads on Lyle's forums, SS forum, another forum I highly respect. It boils down to, I'm still a very novice, weak lifter, so I'm going to take advantage of the progression I can get under SS for one last time, while at maintenance & then a small surplus if needed. I could actually lose bf%, keep it the same, or a small gain if I eat well, so not worried about it. We can discuss further in another thread that should certainly be a mainstay of this forum. At worst, you can guys can laugh at me and use me as a guinea pig, although it would be silly to be results oriented about 1 guy who already has used up his optimal timeframe on SS before prior to injury, but I still think it's the best program for me ATT. I'm not quite fat enough to warrant doing SS at a deficit. All in all, I like that I can ALWAYS go with the cut option later down the road. Let's save this for another thread.
By all means continue SS. Strength and body recomposition are by no means mutually-exclusive. Indeed, aiming for strength should help you shed fat. Rippetoe is simply mistaken if he's arguing that the novice must eat to gain weight in order to gain overall strength. For one thing, because you appear to be young, and you say you're relatively untrained, you should become the happy recipient of some 'juvenile muscle growth' without overeating, just like my son did.
I'm providing input because you seem to be asking for guidance. If you are currently 22-24% bodyfat, that puts you in the range of the average American woman. If you eat in such a way as to add still more bodyfat, you're going to be verging on the bodyfat composition of an obese woman. Is that what you want ?
In any case, just holding where you are in your eating, and working on your strength, would be the 'least bad' of the bad scenarios. That is a live option for you.
I thought we could take this to another thread, it certainly deserves its own, but I'll bite one last time.
Rip does not argue that you must eat above maintenance to gain strength. He recommends overweight guys eat at a small deficit or at maintenance - workouts. Certain trainees have a place for GOMAD, but that doesn't mean you eat a 1k surplus/day(although it could be good for certain trainees, like my 16 yo bro who can't gain weight). GOMAD is an easy way to get a lot of protein & a lot of calories IF needed. And finally he recommends eating at maintenance if appropriate. He's no different than the consensus in that regard, he gets misinterpreted because of mentions of GFH & GOMAD for certain trainees. Of course Rip does throw around those cool words because he's in the business to sell his product. He is certainly no expert on weight loss for intermediate to advanced trainees.
If I'm eating at maintenance, I'm not going to go up in BF%, at my age I could have some potential to even swap some BF for some LBM. When I add a surplus, my P ratio isn't going to be bad enough to where I'm adding more BF than I'm adding LBM & my BF% won't go up unless I'm LOL bad with my diet.
I thought we could take this to another thread, it certainly deserves its own, but I'll bite one last time.
Rip does not argue that you must eat above maintenance to gain strength. He recommends overweight guys eat at a small deficit or at maintenance - workouts. Certain trainees have a place for GOMAD, but that doesn't mean you eat a 1k surplus/day(although it could be good for certain trainees, like my 16 yo bro who can't gain weight). GOMAD is an easy way to get a lot of protein & a lot of calories IF needed. And finally he recommends eating at maintenance if appropriate. He's no different than the consensus in that regard, he gets misinterpreted because of mentions of GFH & GOMAD for certain trainees. Of course Rip does throw around those cool words because he's in the business to sell his product. He is certainly no expert on weight loss for intermediate to advanced trainees.
If I'm eating at maintenance, I'm not going to go up in BF%, at my age I could have some potential to even swap some BF for some LBM. When I add a surplus, my P ratio isn't going to be bad enough to where I'm adding more BF than I'm adding LBM & my BF% won't go up unless I'm LOL bad with my diet.
Hell, I think Rip is wrong about GOMAD for anyone. But that's just me.
And yes, I agree that maintenance will not have you gaining fat and may even have you losing a little.
7/11/11 LBBS:
3x5x195(+10)
-bar speed is slowing down a bit. Fixed my form a bit, knees were going out a bit too much in the above video. Sitting back a bit helped.
7/16/11
-Overall really tired from staying up a lot this week so far with my newborn, definitely affected my lifts a bit last night.
LBBS:
5x210(+5)
4x210
3x210
-All the rep misses were slight form misses, but now that the weight is getting a bit heavy, need to make sure form is really good. Repeating weight
Bench:
5x130(+5)
4x130
3x130
-2 form misses, and 1 missed rep after implementing some more power lifting, better form vs standard, weak bench form. Wore my ass out too, but should help me a lot going forward in a lift that has been very weak most often. Will repeat weight
DL:
5x215(+10)
-Wanted to do some video here to check form, but felt pretty fine overall.
LBBS:
5x215(+5)
4x215
4x215
-Couple reps where form isn't very good for those misses, and I don't think I've corrected sitting back. Definitely need to repeat, might need a 10-20% reset to work on some form.
Bench:
5x130(Repeat)
4x130
3x130
-Hit all the reps, but have some form misses. Still working on the new powerlifting type form, and even thought I'm getting a great setup, I lose tightness in 1 of my shoulder/scapula areas and get super weak in one arm. Repeat.
DL:
5x225(+10)
-Form felt really good, even though it's starting to get a bit heavy. Probably 1 more 10lb jump.
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