America's Forgotten Religion-Deism

[Burke]

The United States was created toward the end of a historical period known as the 18th Century Enlightenment. This was the most rational period in the history of the Western World. The West had been dominated by the Christian Church (and monarchs allied with it) from Roman times until then. And that domination had been oppressive.

The Enlightenment was time when the influence of reason waxed and the influence of Christianity waned. The Enlightenment originated in England and spread to France from which it spread much further--including to America.

In Europe, the Enlightenment was a fashion that died out with the French Revolution, but in America, where our forefathers were looking to found a nation, it did not die out. In many respects, it still exists here.

The intellectual heritage of The Enlightenment was reason and the Rights of Man.

Although Christianity did not disappear, the characteristic religion among intellectuals of the Enlightenment was Deism.

Deists believed that there was a God who started everything, gave man reason to live with, and left. Deists did accept what we today call intelligent design, but they rejected organized religions such as Christianity.

One of the biggest myths in American history is that America is the product of Christian beliefs and that the Founders were a bunch of Bible thumping "evangelical" types.

In fact, Thomas Jefferson, et al were nothing like Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Dr. Dobson or others of their ilk.

The link below is to a Deism site with a lot of very interesting historical info. If you want to know the real history of America in this area, you should spend some time looking at it and at the links it provides.

http://www.deism.com/

[wgbgator]

I don't think Deists rejected organized religion per se, they rejected superstition & miracles. The Unitarian Church has deep roots in Deism.

[swampcabbage]

If I were religous, I would be a Deist. I believe there was a creator; but I don't believe His/Her eye is on the Sparrow.

[brainstorm]

I read up on this in the past. It is interesting, for sure. They tend to see the laws of nature as our "Bible" so to speak.

http://www.earlyamericanhistory.net/...ng_fathers.htm

[Dreamliner]

I'm down with this. I strongly believe that Christians who want to portray America (then or now) as a Christian nation, do their Lord a great diservice.

Just look at America (then and now). Why would a follower of Jesus want to tag him with that ?

[Dreamliner]

As an aside, I seem to remember reading that regular church attendance, in the Colonies, was around 11% in 1775.

[mneale44]

Originally Posted by Burke

The United States was created toward the end of a historical period known as the 18th Century Enlightenment. This was the most rational period in the history of the Western World. The West had been dominated by the Christian Church (and monarchs allied with it) from Roman times until then. And that domination had been oppressive.

The Enlightenment was time when the influence of reason waxed and the influence of Christianity waned. The Enlightenment originated in England and spread to France from which it spread much further--including to America.

In Europe, the Enlightenment was a fashion that died out with the French Revolution, but in America, where our forefathers were looking to found a nation, it did not die out. In many respects, it still exists here.

The intellectual heritage of The Enlightenment was reason and the Rights of Man.

Although Christianity did not disappear, the characteristic religion among intellectuals of the Enlightenment was Deism.

Deists believed that there was a God who started everything, gave man reason to live with, and left. Deists did accept what we today call intelligent design, but they rejected organized religions such as Christianity.

One of the biggest myths in American history is that America is the product of Christian beliefs and that the Founders were a bunch of Bible thumping "evangelical" types.

In fact, Thomas Jefferson, et al were nothing like Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Dr. Dobson or others of their ilk.

The link below is to a Deism site with a lot of very interesting historical info. If you want to know the real history of America in this area, you should spend some time looking at it and at the links it provides.

http://www.deism.com/

You can blame religion all you want, but the reformation was what enabled the enlightenment to occur, and that is because the truth was liberated from bondage during the reformation. And ultimately if you really want to get technical, according to most historians John Calvin is the father of America, and so I do not think that you can be so swift to reject the America's Christian roots.

[wgbgator]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

I'm down with this. I strongly believe that Christians who want to portray America (then or now) as a Christian nation, do their Lord a great diservice.

Just look at America (then and now). Why would a follower of Jesus want to tag him with that ?

I blame Constantine for being the first Christian statist.

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by wgbgator

I blame Constantine for being the first Christian statist.

And so he was. And Christians have been grasping for the reigns of power ever since.

[wgbgator]

Originally Posted by mneale44

You can blame religion all you want, but the reformation was what enabled the enlightenment to occur, and that is because the truth was liberated from bondage during the reformation. And ultimately if you really want to get technical, according to most historians John Calvin is the father of America, and so I do not think that you can be so swift to reject the America's Christian roots.

Roots are fine. Communism and socialism are rooted in Christianity & the Enlightenment as well. Not many statues of Jesus or Voltaire in the former USSR though.

[dynogator]

So Deists believe in a God, but not Christ?

[wgbgator]

Originally Posted by dynogator

So Deists believe in a God, but not Christ?

Jefferson was an admirer of Jesus as a historical figure, but had his doubts about his divinity. I think that is/was a pretty typical Deist position.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

[Dreamliner]

Now, the Founders are one thing (and the God of the Declaration of Independance), but a great many of America's early settlers were manifestly not Deists. And I think they were likely better people than were many of the Americans who founded and forged the American state.

[mneale44]

But July 10, 2009 was also the 500th anniversary of John Calvin, the great Reformer whose teachings became the foundation of the Huguenot churches of France, the Reformed churches of the Netherlands, and the Presbyterian churches of Scotland. Like Martin Luther, Calvin emphasized the all-sufficiency of Scripture alone (Sola Scriptura) as the source of Christian doctrine, the all-sufficiency of grace alone (Sola Gratia) as the provision for our salvation, and the all-sufficiency of faith alone (Sola Fide) as the means of receiving God’s grace.

But Calvin also influenced law and government. His emphasis on Sola Scriptura led to his doctrine of the priesthood of all believers, stressing that all believers are priests and Jesus Christ is our great high priest, so we need no priest or bishop to intercede on our behalf. But if, as Calvin taught, every plowboy should be able to read and interpret the Scriptures for himself, then every plowboy must be taught to read. This led to widespread literacy, which made republican self-government possible.

Calvin’s emphasis on Sola Gratia led to a recognition of the total depravity of human nature. Because of man’s sinful nature, we cannot live in a state of anarchy; we need government to maintain law and order. But because those in authority have the same sinful nature as the rest of us, we cannot trust government with too much power. This led to the system of limited government, separation of powers, checks and balances, and reserved individual rights that characterize republican self-government.

Years ago, I spoke to the Christian Legal Society at the University of North Dakota Law School. I emphasized the role of Calvin in providing the theological and philosophical basis for our Constitution. One young Christian man was utterly amazed by this. He told me he had a master’s degree in history, and until that night he had never heard of John Calvin! But Leopold von Ranke, founder of the modern school of history in Germany, stated flatly, “John Calvin was the virtual founder of America.” And George Bancroft, the leading American historian of the first half of the 1800s, though not a Calvinist himself, called Calvin the “father of America” and added, “He who will not honor the memory and respect the influence of Calvin knows but little of the origin of American liberty.”

Calvin: Father of America

[Burke]

The idea that John Calvin was the intellectual precursor of America is beyond inane.

The Puritans were essentially the Calvinists in America and were Biblical collectivists, theocratic socialists, the antipode of individualism, individual rights, the Enlightenment, and everything America stands for.

They would NEVER have written or adopted the Constitution, which was written long after 1620 and, in fact, after more than 100 years of The Enlightenment.

Christians claim that the Reformation was a great improvement over the prior domination by the Catholic Church, but the Reformers were every bit as bloody. Arguably, the Reformation was a step backward. In part at least, it was a revolt against the influence of Scholasticism in the Catholic Church, and a big part of Scholaticism was Aristotle, the most influential of the rational philosophers.

[Burke]

For those who have not done so, take a look at the link I provide. It's very educational.

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by Burke

The idea that John Calvin was the intellectual precursor of America is beyond inane.

The Puritans were essentially the Calvinists in America and were Biblical collectivists, theocratic socialists, the antipode of individualism, individual rights, the Enlightenment, and everything America stands for.

They would NEVER have written or adopted the Constitution, which was written long after 1620 and, in fact, after more than 100 years of The Enlightenment.

Christians claim that the Reformation was a great improvement over the prior domination by the Catholic Church, but the Reformers were every bit as bloody. Arguably, the Reformation was a step backward. In part at least, it was a revolt against the influence of Scholasticism in the Catholic Church, and a big part of Scholaticism was Aristotle, the most influential of the rational philosophers.

Then again, some of us aren't Constitutional sentimentalists. Also, the Reformers manifestly did not throw off Aristotileanism (not to lionize Aristotle in any way).

[GuyWhiteyCorngood]

I've been back and forth on deism vs theism on here several times. It's pretty common for theists to justify religious dogma and legalism with deist arguments. I've had to point out that fallacious leap on a number of occasions. Arguing the God of gaps doesn't lend any credibility to claims of the supernatural or divine.

I've also argued that Christianity may have never been intended to be way it is now. I know...it's crazy. I've posted this article from Harpers a number of times. I doubt anyone has read it yet, but it talks about Thomas Jefferson's bible and the Gnostic gospel of Thomas. It draws some really interesting parallels.

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by GuyWhiteyCorngood

I've been back and forth on deism vs theism on here several times. It's pretty common for theists to justify religious dogma and legalism with deist arguments. I've had to point out that fallacious leap on a number of occasions. Arguing the God of gaps doesn't lend any credibility to claims of the supernatural or divine.

I've also argued that Christianity may have never been intended to be way it is now. I know...it's crazy. I've posted this article from Harpers a number of times. I doubt anyone has read it yet, but it talks about Thomas Jefferson's bible and the Gnostic gospel of Thomas. It draws some really interesting parallels.

The Gospel of Thomas was probably penned no earlier than 150 AD, perhaps nearly one-hundred years after the New York Yankees-Los Angeles Lakers of the Gospels - Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

[GuyWhiteyCorngood]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

The Gospel of Thomas was probably penned no earlier than 150 AD, perhaps nearly one-hundred years after the New York Yankees-Los Angeles Lakers of the Gospels - Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

There are opposing thoughts on the matter. I'm no expert on the subject, but I've read arguments for Thomas coming around 50 AD. I think Thomas is interesting because it leaves out some of the absurd (by materialistic standards) elements of the life and nature of Jesus. It paints him more as a man and a philosopher - not a god or the son of god.

Some of the theories pit John vs Thomas, pointing to John as a conductor of a smear campaign against Thomas. Elaine Pagels has a bunch of books on the subject, but then again, she's not from FSU. She may lack credibility. I don't think she's alone on the subject though.

Isn't there also a Gnostic connection to the Masons and the Knights of Templar? Jefferson apparently wasn't a Mason, but it's interesting how things seem to be inter-related.