Your MLB Hall of Fame ballot

[JohnC1908]

Originally Posted by Gatorsmob

But you can't argue that he did play the position and no other catcher put up the offensive numbers he did. There is a reason catchers don't put up huge offensive numbers year after year because of the wear and tear put on your body day in and day out.

I understand but he was a horrible catcher. Not below average but just downright horrible. I think he should eventually get in but does not deserve the prestige that comes with being a first ballot HOF'r.

[Wuerffel5220]

Old- I am with you in that the whole career needs to be taken in account. I was just playing devil's advocate for those who argue against Bonds because he was "dirty" He was not dirty his entire career. All belief is that he started using after the 1999 season. So rule 3B would still theoretically apply if you exclude the "dirty seasons" as he was a 13 year vet by that point. So when I say he was a HOF before that, if his career ended then, he wouldve had 445 HR, 460 SB, 3 MVP's, ROY, 8 All Star Appearances and 8 Gold Gloves. That's a Hall of Famer, even if you add zeros to his next 7 seasons, instead of the greatest 5 year run in the history of baseball, including a season with 73 HR's and a separate season with a .370 Batting Average (and another at .362) with 4 straight MVP's. No one who's ever played, on steroids or not, has ever come close to a stretch like that.

It doesn't take into account the vague rule 5 interpretation. Was Ty Cobb, a virulent racist and player who intentionally tried to injure fielders, worthy? Should we remove him? That clause becomes a very gray area.

[Wuerffel5220]

Originally Posted by JohnC1908

I understand but he was a horrible catcher. Not below average but just downright horrible. I think he should eventually get in but does not deserve the prestige that comes with being a first ballot HOF'r.

Is there really more prestige?

Can you tell me which of these guys were first ballot HOF's off hand and which weren't?

Hank Aaron
Joe DiMaggio
Lou Brock
Lou Gehrig
Kirby Puckett
Cy Young
Robin Yount
Yogi Berra
Dennis Eckersley
Jimmie Foxx
Eddie Murray

[JohnC1908]

5220 no I really can't honestly but I know the standards of who does and doesn't get in have changed quite a bit.

[Wuerffel5220]

The even number guys- DiMaggio, Gehrig, Young, Berra and Foxx are not 1st ballot guys.

Gehrig, Young and Foxx were "punished" because they only took 6 in the initial class.
The standard now tends to be "DiMaggio wasn't a first ballot guy, so XXXXXX, shouldn't be" or as you said "he's a Hall of Famer, but not a first ballot HOF worthy player"

To me, you are either a Hall of Famer or you aren't

[JohnC1908]

Originally Posted by Wuerffel5220

To me, you are either a Hall of Famer or you aren't

I could get on board with that but that's not the way it works. IMO, Piazza was a DH playing catcher. His stats really shouldn't be compared with Bench, Campanella, etc. Maybe the prettiest right hand swing I've ever seen though.

[Wuerffel5220]

Originally Posted by JohnC1908

I could get on board with that but that's not the way it works. IMO, Piazza was a DH playing catcher. His stats really shouldn't be compared with Bench, Campanella, etc. Maybe the prettiest right hand swing I've ever seen though.

Would you never vote for a "specialist". A closer or a DH under any circumstances?

[Gatorsmob]

I understand what you are saying John but he played catcher there is no arguing that day in day out he put on the knee pads and wore his body out playing catcher. You can say he was a terrible catcher but you can't deny what he did hitting wise while he played catcher. This is like saying Ozzie smith doesn't deserve to be in the hall of fame cause he couldn't hit. Ozzie who is probably the best defensive shortstop to live got in because of that and by no means because of his hitting.

[gatorman_07732]

Originally Posted by Tebowism0823

I agree with this. If you cheated you don't deserve to be in. Period!

Exactly how did Rose cheat?

[JohnC1908]

Originally Posted by Wuerffel5220

Would you never vote for a "specialist". A closer or a DH under any circumstances?

Of course I would but I think I'd be a bit more reluctant than vote for somebody who is perceived as the greatest offensive catcher of all time.

[Sylez_G_Koolaid]

Jonah Keri had one of the better takes on the vote, in my opinion. Worth the read. This part I liked especially:

Then there's the subset of voters who … let's be charitable and say they're not winning any math-related Genius Grants. Forget WAR or JAWS or any other specific advanced stat. Can we get a little nuance beyond hewing to round numbers of hits, home runs, and wins? It'd be great if more voters could at least acknowledge the vastly different offensive criteria that should define success for a first baseman compared to a shortstop, center fielder, or especially a catcher. Maybe a little nod to park effects, and how playing most of one's career at the Astrodome or Safeco Field might yield vastly different results than, say, Fenway? No one's asking anyone to retake their math SATs, but maybe something a little better than a quick scan of raw Triple Crown stats and then calling it a day.

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-tr...l-hall-of-fame

[panhandlegator70]

I know there is a baseball forum but this is more read. Here is how I would solve the steroid problem. Vvote based on their stats before they were under suspicion. Binds would get in based in his years in Pittsburgh alone, same for pre Yankee Clemons. That would problem peace out Sosa and McGuire (and I really kijed McGuire) and don't forget everyone knew but were happy for McGuire and sammy (Rifkin stream was a part for sure) to put butts back in the seats post strike

[Wuerffel5220]

There's a good HOF discussion going on in the Pub. Going to move this there

[Wuerffel5220]

Love Jonah Keri and Grantland

[gtr2x]

If we are going all pure on this thing then what about evicting the guys that threw spitters and cut the ball, etc. Funny how that seems to be OK, even cool that they got away with it in some circles. Names like, Perry and Ford come to mind for starters.

[G8rChuck85]

Merging the "hall of fame" thread with the "Your MLB Hall of Fame ballot" thread.

[LeafUF]

Cheating is as much as a part of the game as as the bases.

You know how to fix the issues just make steroids legal and let it play itself out.