Greece Again

[oragator1]

Originally Posted by chemgator

If Greece wants to exit the euro and reinstate the drachma or whatever it is, they can print as much money as they want. They can print money until they are blue in the face. I doubt it will help them, though.

Their stupid protests and strikes are really making a bad situation worse. Tourism is a big part of their economy, and no one wants to go to a country where the taxi drivers, hotel staff and everyone else is on strike. You'll be stranded somewhere if you don't know some locals to bail you out.

I have posted the articles explaining this before, they aren't simply protesting because they are losing benefits, there is a great deal of anger because the country is literally full of tax cheats, mostly from the middle and upper classes. Had all of the expected taxes been collected they literally would not have even had a crisis, but their enforcement is embarrassingly lax. So now it is the poor and lower middle classes who are being forced to pay the price for the cheaters who were already ahead of them economically - they got a leg up by cheating and another one with austerity hitting those below them hardest. There is resentment at the government for letting the country into this mess, but also at their fellow citizens. It's n ugly scene.

[Burke]

What's a tax cheat?

Someone who doesn't pay his "fair share"?

Like the 50% here who pay nothing?

Or the other 50% who pay for everything?

But also, what would have happened had the "rich" been forced to pay more?

Everything would have been hunky dory.

But wait, don't higher taxes hurt the economy?

And tend to reduce overall tax revenue.

"Rape the rich" is not a viable economic plan.

Its not an economic plan at all.

It's just exploitation.

[oragator1]

Originally Posted by Burke

What's a tax cheat?

Someone who doesn't pay his "fair share"?

Like the 50% here who pay nothing?

Or the other 50% who pay for everything?

But also, what would have happened had the "rich" been forced to pay more?

Everything would have been hunky dory.

But wait, don't higher taxes hurt the economy?

And tend to reduce overall tax revenue.

"Rape the rich" is not a viable economic plan.

Its not an economic plan at all.

It's just exploitation.

Tax rant aside, there is a massive black market in Greece that's rooted in a distrust of government from the socialist days. And as I pointed out it's not just a rich issue, it's middle class too. When someone gets their car fixed there is a published price and a black market price in many places, when someone gets a government decal there's the published price and the price for bribing a government worker to get one for you. Owning a pool is supposed to be taxed but something like 10% of the people with pools claim it. Doctors show income of 25k with 2 big houses because they take all of their money under the table.
It's a corrupt inefficient economy that the government did nothing to stop. And whether one agrees with the taxes or not, the law is the law. Move if you don't like it, but in the meantime their government was losing billions and billions every year to people breaking the law and did nothing, except to make cuts to the poor. If enough people there thought the laws were unjust, change them, but breaking the law without consequence and having another group penalized for it isn't just either. That's where much of the anger comes from.

[geauxgator1]

Originally Posted by gatorman_07732

No, what I'm saying is Greece was irresponsible with their polices and killed their economy. Greece unemployment is at 27% and don't have people supporting their over-bloated federal government. This is what happens when people think the central government is the solution to everybody's problems. There is no wealth creation in Greece, therefore there's not enough people paying into what the Greece central government promises their people. They can easily CREATE wealth if their polices reflected growth, but they don't.

That's right the government can't create industry/wealth, they can only regulate and take. For some reason liberals cant seem to understand that. The system simply collapses. We'll be there pretty soon, so it will be a "learning experience' as they like to say.

[geauxgator1]

Originally Posted by busigator96

What is funny is the personal savings rate for Greeks is higher than ours. That says government corruption to me.

Not that I doubt you, but I'd like to know what the comparative figures really are. Most govts are corrupt, just to what extent is the question. Those figures will never be published!

[Burke]

Some people are "penalized" because others don't pay taxes to buy things for them.

Typical leftie thinking.

[chemgator]

Originally Posted by oragator1

I have posted the articles explaining this before, they aren't simply protesting because they are losing benefits, there is a great deal of anger because the country is literally full of tax cheats, mostly from the middle and upper classes. Had all of the expected taxes been collected they literally would not have even had a crisis, but their enforcement is embarrassingly lax. So now it is the poor and lower middle classes who are being forced to pay the price for the cheaters who were already ahead of them economically - they got a leg up by cheating and another one with austerity hitting those below them hardest. There is resentment at the government for letting the country into this mess, but also at their fellow citizens. It's n ugly scene.

Every country that gets into a debt problem has both a tax collection problem and a spending problem. The question is a matter of percentages. In the U.S., the problem is clearly weighted towards a severe spending problem--probably 90% (excess) spending, and 10% (insufficient) taxation. You can clearly see this when you look at the fact that you could tax the wealthy at a 100% rate and still not balance the budget. I don't know how much the Greek problem is weighted towards taxation or spending, but they clearly have a spending problem. Too many handouts, too many do-nothing gov't-supported jobs, too little private enterprise and hard work. Very few value-added products being exported from Greece.

[oragator1]

Originally Posted by Burke

Some people are "penalized" because others don't pay taxes to buy things for them.

Typical leftie thinking.

So being pro law and order, wanting laws enforced and people breaking them punished is lefty now? Interesting.

Here is the original article I was talking about, back at the beginning of the crisis. Again it's one thing to say "taxes are unfair" and a whole other thing to break the law to make a point, especially when it plays a major role in bankrupting your country and you aren't held accountable. If you don't like the laws get them changed or leave.


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/wo...anted=all&_r=0

[leogator]

Originally Posted by chemgator

Every country that gets into a debt problem has both a tax collection problem and a spending problem. The question is a matter of percentages. In the U.S., the problem is clearly weighted towards a severe spending problem--probably 90% (excess) spending, and 10% (insufficient) taxation. You can clearly see this when you look at the fact that you could tax the wealthy at a 100% rate and still not balance the budget. I don't know how much the Greek problem is weighted towards taxation or spending, but they clearly have a spending problem. Too many handouts, too many do-nothing gov't-supported jobs, too little private enterprise and hard work. Very few value-added products being exported from Greece.

Unfortunately, most manufacturing jobs were exported either to Germany or China. Their most valued export is college-educated people, which they have too many for such a small country.

[Burke]

Lefties are "pro-law and order" only when they like the laws. When they don't, they ignore them.

Like with immigration.

[wgbgator]

"Law and order" is a loaded term. I usually take it to mean a) harsh sentencing b)mandatory minumums, c) 3 strikes laws, d) "tough on crime" e) pro-drug war f)pro-death penalty as deterent

Not very "left-wing" at all, especially from a civil liberties stand point.

[JerseyGator01]

The reason they are not enforced is because they often contradict each other. There are no tax experts anymore. I wish Jeopardy would have a week of show with CPAs who specialize in tax law. You could make these people look silly with just the right questions.

I took an intro class to personal income tax law in the late 80s at UF. Biggest text book with the smallest print ever. Actually, I had three textbooks. All exams were open book, which didn't help at all given the monstrous size of the books.