The Nicene Creed

[Spurffelbow833]

I grew up in a Methodist church, where the Nicene creed is a bit different than in the Catholic church and some of the other Protestant churches. Methodists say that "He was crucified, dead and buried. On the third day, He arose from the dead." Then I found out that for many others, the creed says Jesus descended into hell before rising from the dead. What exactly does this mean to those who follow this version of the creed? That Jesus not only died for us, but spent 3 days in unimaginable torment before he rose from the dead?

[g8orbill]

There are 2 Creeds- The Nicene Creed that you are used to and The Apostles Creed that you referenced where we say he descended into hell. The Episcopal Church uses both Creeds, depending on the type of Service-I believe John Weslyan was an Episcopalian who broke away and founded the Methodist Church. In the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod we use The Apostles Creed, however, at the end we say We believe in the Holy Christian Church, instead of the holy catholic church (small c and means universal church not the Roman Catholic Church)

[agigator]

First off, it's always better to go straight to the Bible. The first time I heard the Nicene Creed I thought it sounded pretty cool. Then I went and looked up the scriptures on which it's supposedly based and, honestly, it looks like the people who wrote it made a few leaps and took a few liberties. Having said that...

As I understand it, there's more than one word in Greek that gets translated into "hell" in English. There's Hades which is the realm of the dead and then there's Gehenna(the lake of fire in Revelation 20) which was dump outside of Jerusalem where people burned their garbage. Hades, the realm of the dead is described, somewhat in the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31). Note that it contains both a place of rest and a place of torment. Nobody goes to heaven, as in the place where God lives, and no one goes to Gehenna until judgement day. Up until that point the dead go to Hades.

[Dreamliner]

I strongly suspect that the hell references of the New Testament pertained to the events of 70 AD and what they entailed for the people who spurned their Messiah.

[Lawdog88]

As an Anglican, I revere the Creeds, prayers, liturgies, and rites expressed in the Book of Common Prayer.

They were never intended to "trump" the scriptures - and do not - and are not "authoritative" in that sense, but they merely assist as expressions of faith in the totality of worship, communion, comfort, and bonding with God and man that is available in the true Holy Catholic (all of the body of believers') Church.

Back when the other forum existed, we discussed these things.

Bill's answer above, is correct.

[cocodrilo]

I don't see what is wrong with Jesus visiting hell, Hades, or whatever it was called. He had three days to kill.

[harwil]

Originally Posted by g8orbill

There are 2 Creeds- The Nicene Creed that you are used to and The Apostles Creed that you referenced where we say he descended into hell. The Episcopal Church uses both Creeds, depending on the type of Service-I believe John Weslyan was an Episcopalian who broke away and founded the Methodist Church. In the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod we use The Apostles Creed, however, at the end we say We believe in the Holy Christian Church, instead of the holy catholic church (small c and means universal church not the Roman Catholic Church)

John Wesley was an Anglican priest who died an Anglican and an ordained Anglican priest. It was his followers who broke away from the Anglican Church.

The Episcopal Church uses the Apostles Creed, the shorter one, as a Baptismal Creed.It says that Jesus "descended to the dead." The Nicean Creed arose from the Coucil of Nicea in 325 A.D., in current day Turkey across the Sea of Marmara from Constantiople which was the undivided Church's statement of the Trinity ,the Incarnation and Resurrection of Jesus.

[agigator]

Originally Posted by Lawdog88

As an Anglican, I revere the Creeds, prayers, liturgies, and rites expressed in the Book of Common Prayer.

They were never intended to "trump" the scriptures - and do not - and are not "authoritative" in that sense, but they merely assist as expressions of faith in the totality of worship, communion, comfort, and bonding with God and man that is available in the true Holy Catholic (all of the body of believers') Church.

Back when the other forum existed, we discussed these things.

Bill's answer above, is correct.

I remember those discussions though I don't believe I participated. I also don't know if the original poster did or not.

Anyway, the OP mentioned the Nicene Creed but the actual information sought was

Originally Posted by Spurffelbow833

What exactly does this mean to those who follow this version of the creed? That Jesus not only died for us, but spent 3 days in unimaginable torment before he rose from the dead?

Bill's response, which you approved of, was basically, "You've confused the Apostle's creed with the Nicene creed." He answered the question without addressing the real issue. Which, I think, illustrates one of the problems with creeds. Knowledge of non-authoritative creeds has apparently supplanted knowledge of authoritative scripture.

Also, note, the OP asked people who "follow" the creed and no one even batted an eye. Do you think it's a good idea to follow something that's non-authoritative when you have access to something that is? I don't. But I do think it's a very easy trap to fall into.

Bottom line, theoretically, creeds aren't authoritative and they don't trump scripture but it appears that creed knowledge often comes at the expense of Bible knowledge. So, in practice, creeds do wind up trumping scripture.

[g8orbill]

you are correct agi-I stopped reading before the end of his post

I believe I l remember learning somewhere along the line in Confirmation classes that during the time the Apostles Creed was written hell was being buried in the ground. And it did not signify that he was in some tortuous place.

[madgator]

Originally Posted by cocodrilo

I don't see what is wrong with Jesus visiting hell, Hades, or whatever it was called. He had three days to kill.

If I had 3 days and the luxury of instanteous travel, I'd go to Hawaii or Bora Bora. As opposed to hell or hades

[Lawdog88]

Originally Posted by agigator

I remember those discussions though I don't believe I participated. I also don't know if the original poster did or not.

Anyway, the OP mentioned the Nicene Creed but the actual information sought was


Bill's response, which you approved of, was basically, "You've confused the Apostle's creed with the Nicene creed." He answered the question without addressing the real issue. Which, I think, illustrates one of the problems with creeds. Knowledge of non-authoritative creeds has apparently supplanted knowledge of authoritative scripture.

Also, note, the OP asked people who "follow" the creed and no one even batted an eye. Do you think it's a good idea to follow something that's non-authoritative when you have access to something that is? I don't. But I do think it's a very easy trap to fall into.

Bottom line, theoretically, creeds aren't authoritative and they don't trump scripture but it appears that creed knowledge often comes at the expense of Bible knowledge. So, in practice, creeds do wind up trumping scripture.

Only if people don't read scripture and understand it, or are into proof texting some irrelevant point - which certainly can be done with scripture.

Now that may be blasphemy for the literalists (that the Bible could possibly contain an irrelevant point ). But I am not one of them.

Do I think some people may rely on creeds because they may not like studying scripture ? Sure.

[wargunfan]

A good link on the subject.
http://carm.org/christianity/christi...-he-died-cross

[wargunfan]

Originally Posted by madgator

If I had 3 days and the luxury of instanteous travel, I'd go to Hawaii or Bora Bora. As opposed to hell or hades

You're set up nicely to do the latter.

[cocodrilo]

Originally Posted by madgator

If I had 3 days and the luxury of instanteous travel, I'd go to Hawaii or Bora Bora. As opposed to hell or hades

In Jesus' time, Hawaii hadn't been discovered yet, had it?

[Spurffelbow833]

Originally Posted by cocodrilo

In Jesus' time, Hawaii hadn't been discovered yet, had it?

Not even by the ones who actually discovered it.

[Dreamliner]

There is some evidence that Jesus visited East St. Louis while awaiting his ascension.

[MichiGator2002]

Apple store. That is also why it took three days.

[wargunfan]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

There is some evidence that Jesus visited East St. Louis while awaiting his ascension.

Surprised He was able to get out of there alive.

[cocodrilo]

Originally Posted by MichiGator2002

Apple store. That is also why it took three days.

I wish he would go into stores and drive out all the salesmen who peddle desktop computers with Windows 8 on them.