Controversial Religion Billboard.

[oragator1]

Originally Posted by lacuna

The Golden Rule or the ethic of reciprocity is a central teaching in all faiths. All religions but one state in a variety of ways - either in the positive or negative - that we should treat all other people in the way we wish to be treated or to not deal with them as we ourselves don't want to be dealt with.

The one exception is Islam which states "None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself" or alternate translation "Not one of you is a believer until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself." It is the only one to exclude all but fellow believers in Islam. And knowing how women are discriminated against, perhaps it even excludes them from the maxim and justifies their mistreatment.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/reciproc2.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/reciproc3.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/mor_dive3.htm

That interpretation would come as a surprise to many Muslims.

http://mtakbar.wordpress.com/2008/01...o-golden-rule/

I am still waiting to understand what the false witness is. Muslims do believe in all of the people mentioned on the billboard, they just hold some in different regard than Christians. I am also curious as to how Christianity isn't a religion.

[CHFG8R]

Originally Posted by bluelang

What is false advertising, exactly? Islam was created after Christianity and based on the same laws, just as Christianity was on Judaism.

Exactly and for good reason. When he CREATED Islam for HIS OWN PERSONAL GAIN, Muhammed took a good look at the landscape and, not surprisingly, sought to glom on to the fastest growing religion in the region at that time - Christianity. Smart move if you think about it. Instead of trying to build a religion FOR YOU OWN PERSONAL GAIN from the ground up (with a new creation story, etc.), just build off of what is already established and growing. Co-opt the prevailing religion of the day and close all those nasty little loopholes so that the religion - and its followers - are in lockstep with your personal goals of power acquisition.

It's really pretty simple when you do the basic math. That is, unless you actually believe that God spoke to him through Gabriel in a cave (fittingly, with no witnesses) and that all the power - military, financial and political - he gained was just mere coincidence.

[orangeblueorangeblue]

Yes, the last thing we can do is follow a religion that co-opted elements of other religions.

[wgbgator]

Haha, if people wanted a truly "original" religion, they should probably become Scientologists or something.

[Gatormb]

Buddhism does not be believe in a personal god.

Hindu's believe in many gods.

In Islam they try to please god in order to gain mercy.

All of these religions are man's attempt to please God. Only Christianity teaches that that is impossible so God reached down to man in reconciliation through Jesus Christ. Christianity teaches that ONLY through a relationship with the Savior can you be made right (righteous) with God the Father. That relationship produces saving repentance, a contrite heart grateful that our sin was paid for on the cross, that makes us want to please Jesus. This opposed to an attitude of "well if I have to believe so I don't go to hell, I'll do it."

Certainly Christianity is "organized" but it's all about an individual relationship with Christ, not about a "religion". That's the difference.

[Gatormb]

Originally Posted by wgbgator

Haha, if people wanted a truly "original" religion, they should probably become Scientologists or something.

Cost ya a couple hundred grand to get rid of those pesky alien souls.

[CHFG8R]

Originally Posted by orangeblueorangeblue

Yes, the last thing we can do is follow a religion that co-opted elements of other religions.

Just calling a Duck a Duck. Christianity may be guilty of the same thing to a lesser degree. Of course, that's the downfall of having your philosophy spread by a disparate group as opposed to clearly serving the gains of one. That's how you get messy stuff like the concept of the Trinity (of which wars were beng fought at the time of Islam's founding by it's self-serving founder). Muhammed was smart in that he nipped that stuff in the bud right away. That's clearly the angle of the "this is the direct word of God as spoken through Gabriel and transcribed by Muhammed" part of the doctrine. Eliminates all that messy interpretation stuff that, in addition to creating internal questions re. the doctrines, also led directly to wars between the factions.

Muhammed's motives are actually pretty clear cut when you step back and take a good look at the circumstances - and results - of Islam's creation. Clearly, no Prophet has ever "profited" as much as he from his "conversations with God."

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by wgbgator

Haha, if people wanted a truly "original" religion, they should probably become Scientologists or something.

They probably don't want to endure persecution. Or they might like to travel to Germany at some point.

[wgbgator]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

They probably don't want to endure persecution. Or they might like to travel to Germany at some point.

Given some of the posts here, you'd think Christians are the most persecuted religion on earth. So, I don't think that's it. Some people seem to relish being victims of persecution. Now that Scientology has its tax exempt status too, it can also revel in the type of "persecution" that only Americans can suffer.

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by wgbgator

Given some of the posts here, you'd think Christians are the most persecuted religion on earth. So, I don't think that's it. Some people seem to relish being victims of persecution. Now that Scientology has its tax exempt status too, it can also revel in the type of "persecution" that only Americans can suffer.

A distinction needs to be made here. American Christians are not really persecuted. Worldwide, that's a different matter.

[wgbgator]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

A distinction needs to be made here. American Christians are not really persecuted. Worldwide, that's a different matter.

Fair enough. But I doubt many Iranian Christians are posting on this forum, so I think that was implied in my post.

[CHFG8R]

Originally Posted by wgbgator

Given some of the posts here, you'd think Christians are the most persecuted religion on earth. So, I don't think that's it. Some people seem to relish being victims of persecution. Now that Scientology has its tax exempt status too, it can also revel in the type of "persecution" that only Americans can suffer.

I refer to this mentality as "nailing yourself to the cross." Fitting, don't ya think?

[lacuna]

Originally Posted by oragator1

That interpretation would come as a surprise to many Muslims.

http://mtakbar.wordpress.com/2008/01...o-golden-rule/

I'll abide by what I posted earlier. Islam does not have an all inclusive ethic of reciprocity as found in all other religions.

Read the Hadith you posted carefully in context. It is referring to disagreements among Muslims and their internal dealings with one another.


Quran 48:29 ... Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves.

Quran 9:123 ... O you who have believed, fight those adjacent to you of the disbelievers and let them find in you harshness. And know that Allah is with the righteous.

[oragator1]

Originally Posted by lacuna

I'll abide by what I posted earlier. Islam does not have an all inclusive ethic of reciprocity as found in all other religions.

Read the Hadith you posted carefully in context. It is referring to disagreements among Muslims and their internal dealings with one another.


Quran 48:29 ... Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves.

Quran 9:123 ... O you who have believed, fight those adjacent to you of the disbelievers and let them find in you harshness. And know that Allah is with the righteous.

Disappointed but I guess not surprised with your response. I didn't provide that link for the follow up Hadith, but the interpretation of the original one. Muslims say your original passage means one thing, including some of their eminent scholars (and even the site you quoted btw, the context was on the golden rule), but you, as someone who comes from a completely different faith, you are the one who can properly discern the context. And then you completely ignore the bible's own apparent hypocrisy on exactly the same point in your additional passages.

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die." -- Dt.13:6-10"

I am sure the next post will be putting the above quote into "context" about how the verse reference was to Israel and not all non-believers etc, without affording Muslims the same privilege on the quotes you chose to highlight or as I mentioned above, or deferring to their experts as to what the passages mean.
This is exactly why I view the major religions as dangerous, because they encourage exactly this sort of behavior, minimizing others in the name of yours, trumpeting something that's supposed to be about good and inclusiveness by the denigration of others. And what's as bad or worse, is that many of those who are deeply religious (in all religions) seem pathologically incapable of even recognizing this flaw. There are literally dozens of sites that explain some of these passages in context if anyone waned to have an open mind about it.

[92gator]

Originally Posted by Gatormb

Buddhism does not be believe in a personal god.

Hindu's believe in many gods.

In Islam they try to please god in order to gain mercy.

All of these religions are man's attempt to please God. Only Christianity teaches that that is impossible so God reached down to man in reconciliation through Jesus Christ. Christianity teaches that ONLY through a relationship with the Savior can you be made right (righteous) with God the Father. That relationship produces saving repentance, a contrite heart grateful that our sin was paid for on the cross, that makes us want to please Jesus. This opposed to an attitude of "well if I have to believe so I don't go to hell, I'll do it."

Certainly Christianity is "organized" but it's all about an individual relationship with Christ, not about a "religion". That's the difference.

Are you therefore joining 'jstewie15' in claiming Christianity isn't a religion?

[92gator]

Originally Posted by CHFG8R

Exactly and for good reason. When he CREATED Islam for HIS OWN PERSONAL GAIN, Muhammed took a good look at the landscape and, not surprisingly, sought to glom on to the fastest growing religion in the region at that time - Christianity. Smart move if you think about it. Instead of trying to build a religion FOR YOU OWN PERSONAL GAIN from the ground up (with a new creation story, etc.), just build off of what is already established and growing. Co-opt the prevailing religion of the day and close all those nasty little loopholes so that the religion - and its followers - are in lockstep with your personal goals of power acquisition.

.....

You could actually substitute Martin Luther for Muhammed up there, and 'Islam' with protestantism, and it would fit.

Dispense with all of those shackles that came with the Church that Yeshua actually founded--vows of chastity, vows of poverty, submission to authority, respecting precedence and Sacred Tradition, etc., ...replace with 'sola scriptura', and you have the justification for every man being able to found their own personal *Private Profit Center* in the name of Jesus Christ, and call it a 'church'.

...and you get good ol' fashioned Capitalist Christianity!

Just and Yeshua designed it!

[92gator]

Originally Posted by oragator1

That interpretation would come as a surprise to many Muslims.

http://mtakbar.wordpress.com/2008/01...o-golden-rule/

.....

...as your interpretation comes as a surprise to anyone who isn't a muslim apologist.

[oragator1]

Originally Posted by 92gator

...as your interpretation comes as a surprise to anyone who isn't a muslim apologist.

That's exactly the point, it's not my interpretation, I am deferring to those who can speak to it. I don't claim to be an expert on any religion, but particularly not on one I wasn't raised with, I would believe those who know it far better than me. But not surprised that point was lost.

[92gator]

^^^gotcha'.

However, whatever they may proclaim, muslims haven't exactly taken pains to promote 'the golden rule' in any country in which they represent a majority.

...so please forgive me for taking your noble defense of their cause, with a grain of salt.