BELIEF IN THE EXISTENCE OF GOD and REINCARNATION

[reformedgator]

Originally Posted by Lawdog88

So you instead believe in eternal whoopies for all comers, of all persuasions ? Hey, so let's just go do some reincarnation, or Unitarianism, or other spiritual ju-ju stuff.

So Jesus' words that He is the door; that only He can give eternal life to man; and that some men are goats, some are sheep, and when He judges all men and all deeds at the end of time, some won't be happy with the outcome . . . and all of that is just a metaphor ?

Huh ?

It seems like some like to metaphorize anything that is a hard teaching or doesn't fit in with the God they'd like Him to be. It's hard to get around the many passages that speak of our cosmic rebellion against a Holy God & its consequences.
I don't know what kind of law you practice, but have you experienced many people who were clearly guilty, were judged fairly but didn't expect any punishment & were clearly shocked when they went their sentence was announced?

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by Lawdog88

So Jesus just wasted a bunch of words about His ultimate authority on a metaphor that has no real meaning.

Got it.

Wait, so you don't take all scripture literally ? I just didn't take you for the kind of person who wanted to metaphorize everything.

[Lawdog88]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

Wait, so you don't take all scripture literally ? I just didn't take you for the kind of person who wanted to metaphorize everything.

Which do you want to do ? Is your rule flexible enough that it bends either way, especially when you need to make a joke about something because your theology is broken ?

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by Lawdog88

Which do you want to do ? Is your rule flexible enough that it bends either way, especially when you need to make a joke about something because your theology is broken ?

Wait, so Jesus is not really coming in the clouds and the lion is not really going to lay down with the lamb ? Are you saying that THIS it it ?

Now I'm totally disillusioned.

[Lawdog88]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

Wait, so Jesus is not really coming in the clouds and the lion is not really going to lay down with the lamb ? Are you saying that THIS it it ?

Now I'm totally disillusioned.

With your confused thinking, I would think that would be the obvious result.

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by Lawdog88

With your confused thinking, I would think that would be the obvious result.

I'm just more confused by your confusion more than anything else. You're letting me down, man.

[GuyWhiteyCorngood]

Christian Tickle Fight!!!! (about eternal damnation)

[Lawdog88]

Originally Posted by GuyWhiteyCorngood

Christian Tickle Fight!!!! (about eternal damnation)

Hey, you stay out of this !

[Lawdog88]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

I'm just more confused by your confusion more than anything else. You're letting me down, man.

Just answer me this: Was Jesus speaking metaphorically when He said He would judge all men and their deeds, separating the sheep from the goats ? Does your metaphorical interpretation mean that He will not really judge men and their deeds, and that His words have no literal meaning (hey, it was just a figure of speech, Dude), ergo: He was lying ?

Hint: He did say, "as a shepherd . . . "

Matthew 25:31-46

New International Version (NIV)

The Sheep and the Goats

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world . . . ." (reasons for the separation follow) . . . then the reward (punchline): "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

[Lawdog88]

Originally Posted by Itssaul

. . . give me one way I can be more open minded than "idk, show me ANYTHING with proof and I shall believe "

You can only be more open minded if you determined to find whatever you are demanding proof of, without insisting that anybody do your work for you. Which is what you want everybody to do, including God, because that's the lazy way and whatever you claim to be interested in, really doesn't seem to be that important to you.

With that implicit demand to be fulfilled set up, you'll never get anywhere and never find out anything; all of that is merely a defensive rationalization. And a lot of other things.

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by Lawdog88

Just answer me this: Was Jesus speaking metaphorically when He said He would judge all men and their deeds, separating the sheep from the goats ? Does your metaphorical interpretation mean that He will not really judge men and their deeds, and that His words have no literal meaning (hey, it was just a figure of speech, Dude), ergo: He was lying ?

Hint: He did say, "as a shepherd . . . "

Matthew 25:31-46

New International Version (NIV)

The Sheep and the Goats

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world . . . ." (reasons for the separation follow) . . . then the reward (punchline): "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Yes, and in 1 Kings 10:24 the WHOLE world sought audience with Solomon. Presumably this would have included the ancient Eskimos. Damn! their arms must have been tired!

[Lawdog88]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

Yes, and in 1 Kings 10:24 the WHOLE world sought audience with Solomon. Presumably this would have included the ancient Eskimos. Damn! their arms must have been tired!

No, no . . . just stick to what Jesus said about Himself.

Not what was said somewhere in the Old Books.

[lacuna]

Originally Posted by Lawdog88

No, no . . . just stick to what Jesus said about Himself.

Not what was said somewhere in the Old Books.

Okay -

In John's gospel Jesus said he was bread. French? White? Whole wheat? Wonder Bread?

Jesus said he was a vine. Surely producing a superior vintage, but what variety?

Jesus said he was a gate, and the light of the world, a shepherd.

Jesus was flesh and blood else he could not have died when he was crucified. He was not a plant, not a wooden gate, not a loaf of bread, not a torch or oil lamp lit to give light, he led no livestock around Judea for 3 years.

So, if Jesus called himself a vine, the bread of life, the light of the world, a shepherd - what could he possibly have intended to convey about himself other than in a metaphorical sense?

Why should any statements allegedly said by Jesus in John's gospel saying he was the "Son of God" be taken other than in the same way the statements above are taken? Metaphorically.

[Juggernautz]

This thread is a fix for those that participated in the "Religion" forum.

[cocodrilo]

Originally Posted by Juggernautz

This thread is a fix for those that participated in the "Religion" forum.

It's 16 pages now, while ironically the Religion forum seems to have died from lack of interest.

[Lawdog88]

It was no metaphor that Jesus claimed to be co-equal with God.

In the synoptics.

So . . . He was speaking metaphorically in the synoptics when He said He judges all mankind ? When He claimed to know the thoughts, the inner nature, the hypocrisies of people (Matt 9:4; 12:25; 22:18) ? When He said that He would judge mankind on the last day (7:22-23) ? When He said He will send his angels (a mere man sending angels ? Pshaw !) to remove evildoers from His kingdom (13:41), and that He will reward each person according to what he has done (16:27) ? I mean, what mere man has: 1) a kingdom with angels . . . 2) capable of removing evildoers . . . and 3) gives out rewards for deeds in the judgment of all mankind ? Is this a metaphorical riddle ?

And thus, presumably continuing in that metaphor, He said that He will tell the wicked "Depart from me, you who are cursed" - implying that the essence of that punishment is not simply separation from God - but separation from Him. (25:34, 41). This especially chosen language of eternal separation is simply metaphorical language ?


Or how about . . . was He speaking metaphorically in the synoptics when He claimed the authority of God to forgive sins ? (Luke 5:17-26; 7:36-50). Or when He also determined who might and who might not be forgiven (18:9-14) ?

For instance, in healing the paralytic lowered through the roof, He declared: "Friend, your sins are forgiven." Jewish thinking was that either the man was born into sin (like the blind man) and thus was cursed of God, or that only an offended party can forgive an offense. But since God - only - is offended by every sin, it made no sense for a mere man to grant forgiveness to a stranger whom Jesus had never met. So, it was blasphemous to claim to have the authority to forgive sins only God could forgive, which the Pharisees immediately grasped: "This fellow is blaspheming. Who can forgive sins but God alone?" (Matt 9:3; Luke 5:21).

Knowing the Jews’ thinking, Jesus incited a showdown over whether He had the authority to forgive sins (only God can do that), asking the Pharisees: "Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk?' [must have been a long pause after that one]. But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins. . . . " Then He said to the paralytic, "Get up, take your mat and go home" (Matt 9:4-6), and the man got up and went home. Make no mistake: Jesus the Messiah, the Christ, is saying, "I have forgiven him, I am showing you doubting lawyers of the law that I claim the authority of God to be able to forgive sins by healing him, and I have proven both." Thus, He did not claim to heal or forgive on God’s authority, but on the authority that God had given Him. Was Jesus’ claim to be co-equal with God and to have the authority that only God has to forgive sins . . . merely metaphorical ?

Was Jesus speaking metaphorically in the synoptics when He said that the eternal destiny of humans depends on their response to Him ? When He said eternal life comes to those who know and confess Him and who are known and confessed by Him (Matt 7:21-27; 10:32-33) ? He said that His disciples must love him more than father or mother, son or daughter, more than life itself, and anyone unwilling to forfeit his life for Christ will lose it forever (10:37-39; 16:24-26; Luke 14:26-27; Mark 8:34-38). Metaphorical language ? Or is He saying that to be known by Him they must literally love Him more than anyone or anything else, and keep His commands even if the keeping entails death ? For those who know Him and publicly confess allegiance to Him, He says they will live forever; if not, they will experience God's eternal wrath. More metaphors ?


How about when Jesus applied to himself the OT texts that describe God, not man ? More metaphors ? After the triumphal entry riding on a colt, the Jewish leaders complain to Jesus that the children of Jerusalem are welcoming Him with cries of "Hosanna to the Son of David." He replied by quoting Ps 8:2: "From the lips of children and infants you have ordained praise." However, Psalm 8 is addressed "O LORD, our Lord." He thus unmistakably applies an OT passage about praise directed only to God . . . to Himself.

Also, when Jesus declares that heaven and earth will pass away before His words pass away (Matt 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 21:33), He claims that His words have the same permanence as God's (Isa 40:8). Was He just metaphorically saying that He knew that people would be talking about the wonderful things He said for a long time . . . or was He ascribing to His own words to be eternally co-equivalent with Gods words ?

Sounds like the need to read scriptures for metaphors comes and goes and depends on when one needs them to fit a prejudged view of a broken theology. Especially so if the need for metaphors exceeds the obedience to recognize what Jesus claimed about Himself . . . in the synoptic gospels . . . and not in the Gospel of John.

He said He was God.

And He is.

[Lawdog88]

Originally Posted by Juggernautz

This thread is a fix for those that participated in the "Religion" forum.

What is it fixing for you ?

[lacuna]

Originally Posted by Lawdog88

It was no metaphor that Jesus claimed to be co-equal with God.

In the synoptics.

So . . .

. . . Sounds like the need to read scriptures for metaphors comes and goes and depends on when one needs them to fit a prejudged view of a broken theology. Especially so if the need for metaphors exceeds the obedience to recognize what Jesus claimed about Himself . . . in the synoptic gospels . . . and not in the Gospel of John.

He said He was God.

And He is.

Thank you for your lengthy and thoughtful reply, M.

This topic has been covered several times before. At present I have no heart to rehash it. I am sincerely happy your theology works for you.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Mine's working just fine, having set me free from despair, untold sins, frustrations and continuously providing life giving spiritual nourishment. May yours also continue to Bless You.

Shalom,
J

[Lawdog88]

Originally Posted by lacuna

Thank you for your lengthy and thoughtful reply, M.

This topic has been covered several times before. At present I have no heart to rehash it. I am sincerely happy your theology works for you.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Mine's working just fine, having set me free from despair, untold sins, frustrations and continuously providing life giving spiritual nourishment. May yours also continue to Bless You.

Shalom,
J

Appreciate the courtesies, J.

Some day just for fun a discussion of Jesus' use of the metaphor, simile, analogy, allegory, parable, in his sayings, stories, teachings, and revelations, and what they mean for the fans of textual criticism (Bultmann / Heidegger), as opposed to - the orthodox Christians - other than literalists . . . could be interesting.