OT: Kentucky/Florida in 2013-14

[StrangeGator]

Originally Posted by wci347

Why would any of them come back? They will develop minimally because all of Cal's new recruits have been guaranteed starting positions.

I think WCS and at least one of Poythress and Goodwin coming back. Kentucky will be very good at those positions.

Not sold on both the Harrisons being big difference makers as freshmen. I like Wilbekin, Hill and Frazier against Kentucky's backcourt. Don't care who the starting PG is. Wilbekin will get his minutes at both guard spots because of his experience and defensive ability.

I think DFS and Prather will be a potent combo at the three and will probably produce more than Kentucky will from that position.

Walker and Yeguete will both get plenty of minutes and probably take turns starting. This will be one of our toughest match ups against Kentucky, and where we might be outmatched.

If Young comes back, I think we get the advantage at the five. He and Harris have a big advantage in experience over WCS and Johnson. If it's just Harris, we give up an advantage here and will have to rely on a three man rotation at the two post positions. Kentucky has a ridiculous amount of talent and depth in the front court.

UF will improve next year a little. Kentucky will improve a lot, but it will take some time to jell. I see UF holding their own in the conference, but Kentucky will have it together by tournament time and could go deep. UF will definitely go deep into the tournament. Too much talent and experience.

[InstiGATOR1]

Originally Posted by REM08

If you think Wilbekin is a better point guard than Derrick Rose, Tyreke Evans, John Wall or Brandon Knight was in their one year each in college, then I don't think the burden of proof is on me.

1. First you try to weasel out a bit by changing the discussion and you now think which ever Harrison will be a lead guard not a PG?

2. You interjected Rose, Evan, Wall and Knight into the discussion so actually the burden of proof is on you. I merely said I would take Wilbekin as a SR over whichever Harrison as a Frosh.

3. Since you were too lazy and it is trivially easy, I did compare Wilbekin to Knight, Wall, Evans and Rose. You can find the information here:

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/com...5=derrick-rose

It turns out that in addition to be a very very very good defensive player, essentially his teams defensive stopper for anyone 6'7" and under, Wilbekin is a more efficient offensive player and a better shooter from the field in college this year than any of the PGs you brought up. Specifically, of these four PGs, Wilbekin this year has

A. the best offensive rating, ie points be possession used up and only Rose is close to Wilbekin.

B. the best effective FG shooting and it is not close.

C. the best assist to turnove ratio by a fairly good margin.

So again Wilbekin an excellent defensive player probably better than any of the Calipari Frosh PGs and a more efficient offensive player. So I think it is hardly outrageous that I would take Wilbekin over whatever Harrison.

4. And to take your anti-UF bias out of this, I included Aaron Craft in that link above. Notice how similar Craft and Wilbekin are statistically and they of course have the similar defensive reputations. So are you are saying you would take whichever Harrison over Aaron Craft of Ohio State. Do you want to stick to that?

[LetItFly]

Originally Posted by InstiGATOR1

1. First you try to weasel out a bit by changing the discussion and you now think which ever Harrison will be a lead guard not a PG?

2. You interjected Rose, Evan, Wall and Knight into the discussion so actually the burden of proof is on you. I merely said I would take Wilbekin as a SR over whichever Harrison as a Frosh.

3. Since you were too lazy and it is trivially easy, I did compare Wilbekin to Knight, Wall, Evans and Rose. You can find the information here:

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/com...5=derrick-rose

It turns out that in addition to be a very very very good defensive player, essentially his teams defensive stopper for anyone 6'7" and under, Wilbekin is a more efficient offensive player and a better shooter from the field in college this year than any of the PGs you brought up. Specifically, of these four PGs, Wilbekin this year has

A. the best offensive rating, ie points be possession used up and only Rose is close to Wilbekin.

B. the best effective FG shooting and it is not close.

C. the best assist to turnove ratio by a fairly good margin.

So again Wilbekin an excellent defensive player probably better than any of the Calipari Frosh PGs and a more efficient offensive player. So I think it is hardly outrageous that I would take Wilbekin over whatever Harrison.

4. And to take your anti-UF bias out of this, I included Aaron Craft in that link above. Notice how similar Craft and Wilbekin are statistically and they of course have the similar defensive reputations. So are you are saying you would take whichever Harrison over Aaron Craft of Ohio State. Do you want to stick to that?

You have been consistent thats for sure

REM...to be fair, instigator has even said Wilbekin will be starting over Hill, which I assume means he thinks he is going to be the better of the two next year. While I thinks that is crazy he has been consistent. I think Hill is a 10 times better player than both of the Harrisons but no one will know until they play next year.

[REM08]

Originally Posted by InstiGATOR1

1. First you try to weasel out a bit by changing the discussion and you now think which ever Harrison will be a lead guard not a PG?

2. You interjected Rose, Evan, Wall and Knight into the discussion so actually the burden of proof is on you. I merely said I would take Wilbekin as a SR over whichever Harrison as a Frosh.

3. Since you were too lazy and it is trivially easy, I did compare Wilbekin to Knight, Wall, Evans and Rose. You can find the information here:

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/com...5=derrick-rose

It turns out that in addition to be a very very very good defensive player, essentially his teams defensive stopper for anyone 6'7" and under, Wilbekin is a more efficient offensive player and a better shooter from the field in college this year than any of the PGs you brought up. Specifically, of these four PGs, Wilbekin this year has

A. the best offensive rating, ie points be possession used up and only Rose is close to Wilbekin.

B. the best effective FG shooting and it is not close.

C. the best assist to turnove ratio by a fairly good margin.

So again Wilbekin an excellent defensive player probably better than any of the Calipari Frosh PGs and a more efficient offensive player. So I think it is hardly outrageous that I would take Wilbekin over whatever Harrison.

4. And to take your anti-UF bias out of this, I included Aaron Craft in that link above. Notice how similar Craft and Wilbekin are statistically and they of course have the similar defensive reputations. So are you are saying you would take whichever Harrison over Aaron Craft of Ohio State. Do you want to stick to that?

I have no anti-UF bias whatsoever. I have the same pro-my team bias that you have though.

If you can't see the correlation I've laid out with past Cal point guards and the fact that this makes my suggestion that Harrison might be a better PG than Wilbekin far from outrageous, then there's little else we can accomplish. I never said it was laughable that you would pick Wilbekin over Andrew who is unproven.

Honestly though, if you can't see the difference between him and Knight/Wall/Rose, then its clear we're both wasting our time here. Luckily we'll find out soon enough.

[InstiGATOR1]

Originally Posted by REM08

I have no anti-UF bias whatsoever. I have the same pro-my team bias that you have though.

If you can't see the correlation I've laid out with past Cal point guards and the fact that this makes my suggestion that Harrison might be a better PG than Wilbekin far from outrageous, then there's little else we can accomplish. I never said it was laughable that you would pick Wilbekin over Andrew who is unproven.

Honestly though, if you can't see the difference between him and Knight/Wall/Rose, then its clear we're both wasting our time here. Luckily we'll find out soon enough.

What you said was this:

Originally Posted by REM08

You'veI'm not trying to say that UK will be the best team of all-time next year. But UF better at every single position??? You lost all credibility there. Please.

The discussion then turned to the PG position. I have clearly won that battle. BTW, you did not answer the question of whether you want to take whichever Harrsion over Aaron Craft.

So you want to to turn to SG? Do you want to argue whichever Harrison and James Young will be better than Frazier's 124.3 offensive rating and 65.3% true shooting percentage? Probably Frazier's numbers go down a bit when he is starting, playing more minutes and has more shooting responsibility, but I am pretty confident he is going to be pretty good. I am pretty confident he will be better than whichever Harrions and James Young. Do you want to argue on this one too or do you want to save time and concede early rather than delaying your concession like on the PG issue?

[REM08]

Originally Posted by InstiGATOR1

What you said was this:



The discussion then turned to the PG position. I have clearly won that battle. BTW, you did not answer the question of whether you want to take whichever Harrsion over Aaron Craft.

So you want to to turn to SG? Do you want to argue whichever Harrison and James Young will be better than Frazier's 124.3 offensive rating and 65.3% true shooting percentage? Probably Frazier's numbers go down a bit when he is starting, playing more minutes and has more shooting responsibility, but I am pretty confident he is going to be pretty good. I am pretty confident he will be better than whichever Harrions and James Young. Do you want to argue on this one too or do you want to save time and concede early rather than delaying your concession like on the PG issue?

I didnt' shift the conversation at all. Yes, I think its ridiculous to say that UF will be better at every single position next year. I think most would agree with me - even on this site.

I don't see what Craft has to do with any of this other than you think he and Wilbekin are about the same and you think that I think Craft is much better than Wilbekin. I really don't know. They seem pretty similar. I'd error on the side of the higher ceiling and Cal's past success with guards of Andrew's caliber. You seem to be the only human on this board incapable of understanding this.

We clearly disagree here and your delusion is keeping us from gaining any ground. You stated your thoughts about Uk an another thread and they make it pretty clear you're incapable of being objective when it comes to anything having to do with them. That nullifies this whole debate right there.

You've also put yourself in a tough position. If Florida is to be better at every position next year, has more chemistry, more experience and far better coaches, how exactly will next season turn out for the two teams? Surely Florida will sweep Kentucky, right? Win the conference? Go further in the tournament? And not just all of these things, but each of them by a pretty easy margin. The games shouldn't even be close really. We could have had this same discussion preceeding every year Cal has been at UK and you would be saying these same things. Some people can at least attempt objectivity, some can't.

[jmoliver]

Uk should be preseason #1 next year and we will be somewhere in the top 10. I think UK will make a lot of teams look bad next year, they will be that good. Funny, most UK fans thought this years team was worthy of a top 5 ranking.

[Colin]

If Goodwin, WCS and Poythress return then UK will be really good, but most of those kids are projected in the first round, so it would be a surprise for them to return when their minutes will be less next year, and other new players will compete for attention in the next draft.

For the Gators, the return of Patric would be huge, figuratively and literally. A frontcourt of PY, Harris, Yequete, DFS, Walker and Prather is as deep and talented of a frontcourt as Billy has had. And they're veterans, except for Walker.

[InstiGATOR1]

Originally Posted by REM08

I didnt' shift the conversation at all. Yes, I think its ridiculous to say that UF will be better at every single position next year. I think most would agree with me - even on this site.

First of all I said:

Originally Posted by InstiGATOR1

The discussion then turned to the PG position.

I did not say whether you or I turned it to the PG position. I think we both went in that direction first maybe because of my past skepticism of a 6'5" Frosh PG. Still apparently you do not what to make your case that whatever Harrison and Young will be better than Frazier next year. So how about we move on to SF? Or you pick a position you think UK will be better than UF next year. [BTW, when I started typing the potential lineups of both programs, I did not have UF better at all positions as my prior. It just after I had looked at them that I decided I like what UF had at each position.]

As far as what I said on transfer thread on the interesting experiment of Poythress and Wiltjer it was somewhat satire in two directions. I not only try to stay out of the Calipari debates here, I don't even read such thread. Discussing the two teams now or in the future is interesting to me calling Calipari names is not. Also it was a bit of satire of Rupp's Rafters and how a number of posters their view Poythress and Wiltjer. I happen to think both of them might well do better in another system. I don't view them like some UK fans.

[InstiGATOR1]

Originally Posted by REM08

I'd error on the side of the higher ceiling and Cal's past success with guards of Andrew's caliber.

BTW,

1. Why would any UK fan worry about upside and why should it enter our discussion? If a player is one and done, his ceiling is not going to realized at UK.

2. Did you not even click on the link after I did all the work for you? Calipari's past success with Rose, Evean, Wall and Knight did not produce a guard even as offensively efficient at Wilbekin in college.

[REM08]

Originally Posted by InstiGATOR1

BTW,

1. Why would any UK fan worry about upside and why should it enter our discussion? If a player is one and done, his ceiling is not going to realized at UK.

2. Did you not even click on the link after I did all the work for you? Calipari's past success with Rose, Evean, Wall and Knight did not produce a guard even as offensively efficient at Wilbekin in college.

Insti...good grief. If I posted a link that showed how Erving Walker was actually taller than Patric Young, would you click it? I don't care about stats or efficiency ratings. Derrick Rose, Brandon Knight, and John Wall were better (as freshmen) than Scotty Wilbekin will be next year. Remember John Wall - that guard who finished 2nd in national POY voting??? And you want me to look at some stats??? If you asked 100 coaches to rank order those 4 guards from the one they'd want to have for one year the most to the least, Scotty (and I think he's good) would finish last. You explanation of offensive efficiency to them wouldn't matter. Different players play different roles on different teams for different coaches surrounded by different teammates.

I mention upside because I'm talking about upside for next year. Downside is higher for Andrew also, I'll give you that. Its a risk reward thing.

I've now explained my position 5 times more than I intended to. Now we can wait until next year. Here's a hypothetical for ya. Andrew Harrison wins national POY next year averaging a triple double. You'll still say that you'd take Wilbekin. I'm not even being sarcastic. You'd have your reasons and would even provide links to stats. I don't doubt it.

[dailydoublecat]

Originally Posted by jmoliver

Uk should be preseason #1 next year and we will be somewhere in the top 10. I think UK will make a lot of teams look bad next year, they will be that good. Funny, most UK fans thought this years team was worthy of a top 5 ranking.

Calipari prepared us for them not being as good as advertised. He said after the blue- white game that there is no way we are a top 5 team and the people that put us there were crazy!! I did think we would click later in the season, but it wasn't meant to be. Our freshmen will improve!!
Jeff

[InstiGATOR1]

Originally Posted by REM08

I don't care about stats or efficiency ratings.

If you don't care about the facts, thne why do you even watch or care about college basketball. I mean go big blue. They are surely the best team in the country to you. Heck why play those silly games, I bet UK can arrange to have the players come stand around in Rupp for a few hours and you can go admire them.

You do understand that winning or losing is a stat, right? You do under that makng or missing a shot is a stat, right? Seriously if you don't care about stats why in the world would you care about a sport any sport? Maybe opera or concerts are more your thing?

[whitelakegator]

UK getting six Mickey D's AAs? Plus whoever stays from this team. They will be loaded next year.