Why are some "sins" overlooked vs. others?

[OaktownGator]

Originally Posted by QGator2414

Wish I could do that. Why don't you tell me which military threats have not involved a legitimate threat to the American people? Your confidence makes it appear you have seen intelligence most are not privileged to see.

As I said before. I have no doubt bad decisions were made. But I just don't think they were made lightly...

Below is a list of military actions where there was little to no legitimate threat to Americans and no attack against America.

It also does not reflect the fact that we have our bases and troops in other people's backyards all over the globe, which itself increase hatred of our country and puts those servicemen and women at greater risk than they would be at home, or deployed at sea in international waters.

Also very interesting that from a country borne of revolt, most of the actions listed below not labelled as a "war", involved us helping their govts put down a revolt... would be the same as if the French had come over here and helped the Brits kick our azz.

With a notable exception being Iran, where we helped over throw a democratically elected govt... because they were going to nationalize their oil.

I agree the decisions were not made lightly... they were made with a perverted sense of priorities, and a decrepit moral foundation.

For instance, not agreeing with people in foreign lands is no justification for killing them. Their oil policies and system of govt is none of our business. And when people revolt against their govt (real grass roots revolt and not a military coup), they have damned good reasons to do so, and we should be the last country to stand in their way.

Below I don't list things like the Cuban missile crisis which I take as legitimate defense of our country against a very real threat. And I mention actions against terrorists as legit, but something we almost certainly brought on ourselves with our constant military meddling in other people's business.

Late 40s to 50s.
Korean War.
Greece.
Iran.

60s to 70s.
Vietnam war. Related actions in Laos and Cambodia.
Dominican Republic.
Iran - blowback from installing the shah.

80s
El Salvador.
Grenada.
Nicaragua.
Panama.
Columbia.
Phillipines.

90s
Iraq and Kuwait - Desert Storm, then ongoing actions. Saddam was our ally through his most deplorable actions against his own people and Iran thru the 80s... then he made the mistake of screwing with oil.
Serbia, Bosnia and Herzogovinia... this series of actions got justified for humanitarian reasons to stop massive casualties, and I support public debate on that type of action, but we certainly were in no danger. And we certainly are not consistent in doing that type of thing.
East Timor... another venture you might justify for humanitarian reasons, but again we were in no danger.

2000-date
Iraq War.


The war in Afghanistan along with various actions in Libya, Somalia, Pakistan, probably other places I'm not aware of, are all related to terrorism.... definitely retaliation for an attack and a very real threat - at least from AQ in Afghanistan. We have to assume other actions are against real threats to us as well.

I would however argue, that if not for six decades of military interference in the Mideast (three generations of folks being given reason to hate us), people over there wouldn't give two chits about us and none of this would be an issue now.

You reap what you sow.

[Lawdog88]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

Yes, but it's also good to have Jesus on reserve, just in case you need to drag him in.

Well Jesus was a Jew, after all. And it's not like the Jews didn't have a history of mixing it up with the locals; heck, they even used children with rocks to kill giants.

And as you know, Jesus may have redeemed the world, but there are plenty of folks in the world with nasty attitudes, who either don't know that, or who knowing that, don't want to be redeemed. Oh dear, what will we do with those meanies ?

Besides, sometimes you have to fight against the armed bad guys, you know, just like you said you would if one crawled in your window at night.

So is it any different to stand up to someone who would slaughter you for your faith, than it is to stand up against people who would slaughter you because you live in a country that is understood by the world (rightly or wrongly) to be "Christian" ?

February 7, 2013

Six Christians in Borno state, NIGERIA, were slain at First Baptist Church in Maiduguri on Christmas Eve. There was also an attack on an evangelical church in Yobe state; gunmen killed Pastor Yohana Sini, 50, and five other members of his church. The Islamic supremist group Boko Haram is strongly suspected in both massacres.

So if that were you, you would lay down to the machete or the AK without fighting back ?

Wars are the same thing. Just bigger. See, e.g., WWII.

[lacuna]

Originally Posted by Tim85

Why are the followers of Christ also thieves, murderers, adulterers, selfish, greedy? Also, how much time have you spent in different churches across America to know that American Christians are collectively and generally double minded when it comes to this?

Originally Posted by Tim85

Would a christian be anyone claiming to follow Christ, or those actually following Christ?

These are valid questions.

A Christian, in my mind, is one who conducts his or her life within the moral parameters laid out by Jesus. A Christian is one who reveres and respects the Christ who taught the moral precepts and diligently strives to obey them out of love.

There are many who claim the mantle of Christianity but disdain some of its tenets when their own selfish agendas and intentions are thwarted. Rather than calling them Christians, perhaps it would be better to call them hypocrites or deceivers.

Simply calling ones self a Christian doesn't make one a Christian. Jesus said we will be known by the fruit our lives produce, the love we bear towards each other and how we conduct ourselves. And not by what title we self apply to our selves.

Are there Christians who lie, or steal, or kill, or over eat, or commit adultery. Yes, sadly. Most of us are weak and when temptations arise it's difficult - perhaps nearly impossible - to withstand those temptations. But it can be done if the heart is in the right place.

[QGator2414]

Originally Posted by MichiGator2002

We should consult the volumes and volumes of helpful teaching and wisdom Jesus gave us when he returned to reign and be our God back in the late first century. I mean, it isn't like He would come back and then just not offer so much as one quotable insight to guide humanity toward His will for the next couple of millennia... er... hmm.

The moral right of self-defense, or the moral obligation to defend the weak and the innocent, don't require or assume that you, the agent, are morally flawless. You are not worshipping yourself when you exercise them.

So it follows that when these rights and obligations are aggregated by a nation, it isn't an implied assertion that there is a divine charter for that nation. Now, I will concede that sometimes people spiritualize the United States beyond what is appropriate, but the are independent phenomena. Your view, Dream, would seem to set a standard by which the only way to disprove state "idolatry" would be to always stand idly by, to never intercede on your own behalf or on behalf of one whom you could protect from injustice.

Quality Post!

[RealGatorFan]

I am not an authority on Theology but here goes:

You can't compare abortion with capital punishment or war. An unborn child committed no act that requires death and is at the mercy of the people. Murderers require capital punishment to preserve life. War is required only when it is just.

Genesis 9:6 - “Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image." God mandates the use of capital punishment.

The Book of Joshua also details numerous wars in the name of God. WWII was a war we as human beings could not ignore. Yes, other wars are not necessary but God does require us to obey our government's laws as long as the laws don't violate God's laws.

The Pharisees asked Jesus a question: "Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?" But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, "You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? Show me the coin used for paying the tax." They brought Him a denarius, and He asked them, "Whose portrait is this? And whose inscription?" "Caesar's," they replied. Then He said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's." In full agreement, the Apostle Paul taught, "This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor"

[108]

Don't worship Christ, try to emulate his love in action

That's the best any of us can do

The rest is out of our control

Love of war is an extension of ones ego

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by Lawdog88

Well Jesus was a Jew, after all. And it's not like the Jews didn't have a history of mixing it up with the locals; heck, they even used children with rocks to kill giants.

And as you know, Jesus may have redeemed the world, but there are plenty of folks in the world with nasty attitudes, who either don't know that, or who knowing that, don't want to be redeemed. Oh dear, what will we do with those meanies ?

Besides, sometimes you have to fight against the armed bad guys, you know, just like you said you would if one crawled in your window at night.

So is it any different to stand up to someone who would slaughter you for your faith, than it is to stand up against people who would slaughter you because you live in a country that is understood by the world (rightly or wrongly) to be "Christian" ?

So if that were you, you would lay down to the machete or the AK without fighting back ?

Wars are the same thing. Just bigger. See, e.g., WWII.

It also helps you inflame people, so as to turn them into bad guys who need killin.' Turns out we're good at that.

[Lawdog88]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

It also helps you inflame people, so as to turn them into bad guys who need killin.' Turns out we're good at that.

Good point. About some people just need killin', that is.

Let's ponder for a moment, a short list of who those people might be, and where they can be found. Huuuuummmmm.

Some armed invader crawling in your bedroom window. Check.

Some terrorist in a third world country, bent on killing Christians, for the sake of killing Christians. Check.

Some robber taking an innocent person hostage in a bank, and threatening to kill her. Check.

A bunch of post 9/11 foreigners in a training camp overseas, with the announced mission to make it to the USA and do as much harm, mayhem, and killing as possible. Check.

A country run by misguided, crazed idiots who have developed a nuclear weapon and who are threatening to use it on a neighboring peaceful state, who doesn't have any defense. Check.

A country threatening to attack a long-standing ally of ours, who is isolated and in the middle of other miscreant, threatening countries. Perhaps.

I am sure you can add to the list, or that you have one of your own.

[wargunfan]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

Why not ? I mean, it's not like Christians are interested in worshipping Christ.

What does Christ say about that nowadays? What is His current instruction to His church?

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by wargunfan

What does Christ say about that nowadays? What is His current instruction to His church?

Get out and vote ? Kill more Muslims ?

[Lawdog88]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

Get out and vote ? Kill more Muslims ?

Who's on your list ?

[MichiGator2002]

Originally Posted by wargunfan

What does Christ say about that nowadays? What is His current instruction to His church?

Yep. Again, not one teaching or quotable insight given, not a single one, despite ostensibly fulfilling the promise to return in person less than a century after His eminently quotable, brief first visit. Sounds legit.

[wargunfan]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

Get out and vote ? Kill more Muslims ?

I take it Christ is silent nowadays. So sorry.

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by wargunfan

I take it Christ is silent nowadays. So sorry.

So you've heard from him lately ?

[MichiGator2002]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

So you've heard from him lately ?

Well, being divine and nominally immortal if He so chooses in human form, I just assumed He must still be around if He came back already 19.5 millennia ago. But, whether that is the case or He just dropped by to see if He had forgotten to unplug the coffee machine, we still got not so much as one soundbite, not one teaching or edict or parable to add to the well-studied guidance of His first visit.

[GatorFanCF]

Dreamliner asks some questions that I love and hate all at the same time because they challenge me and how I conduct my faith - don't necessarily agree; but, I give him (her?) credit for making the discussion healthily provocative. The commentary reminds me of the scripture about "not everyone who cries 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of God." Yikes - that's a sobering thought! Thanks to all who chimed in.

One answer to the original question is cultural. Jews and many Christians all over the world drink alcohol; but, some folks - pretty much only in the USA - think it's "sinful." My son spent a few weeks in South Africa and when he came home I asked him what did he notice about the USA vs. SA; and, his first comment was "...we waste so much water." I'm sure in certain cultures wasting water is a punishable offense; and, if we are good stewards, we should not be wasting anything...our time, our money, our water, nor our love. So, folks, feel free to continue to post and "fear not."

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by MichiGator2002

Well, being divine and nominally immortal if He so chooses in human form, I just assumed He must still be around if He came back already 19.5 millennia ago. But, whether that is the case or He just dropped by to see if He had forgotten to unplug the coffee machine, we still got not so much as one soundbite, not one teaching or edict or parable to add to the well-studied guidance of His first visit.

Seriously, the implication was that (strangely) if Jesus has already returned, then he must be silent. But if he hasn't returned (and is therefore 1.95 millennia late), what's he doing these days ? Is he in the chat room ?

[Lawdog88]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

Seriously, the implication was that (strangely) if Jesus has already returned, then he must be silent. But if he hasn't returned (and is therefore 1.95 millennia late), what's he doing these days ? Is he in the chat room ?

So what good are you ? All you can do is pose questions that you can't answer ?

Anybody can do that.

Pshaw.

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by Lawdog88

So what good are you ? All you can do is pose questions that you can't answer ?

Anybody can do that.

Pshaw.

Did you guys ever answer the question as to why Jesus is 1.95 mil late ?

[Lawdog88]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

Did you guys ever answer the question as to why Jesus is 1.95 mil late ?

Show us your kill list first.

What's in your wallet ?