03-04-2013, 10:24 AM
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#41
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Total passivity is not a mandate of Christian faith.
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03-04-2013, 10:26 AM
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#42
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Gator Country's Ring of Honor
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Neither is total devotion to Caesar.
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03-04-2013, 10:27 AM
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#43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamliner
Total devotion to Christ is a mandate of Christian faith.
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Then there is a nice synergy there, since Christ did not teach total, all contexts passivity.
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03-04-2013, 10:27 AM
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#44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiGator2002
Then there is a nice synergy there, since Christ did not teach total, all contexts passivity.
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Neither did he teach whom we should bomb.
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03-04-2013, 10:32 AM
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#45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamliner
Neither did he teach whom we should bomb.
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No, I don't suppose He did, but then, He also didn't definitively rule out the notion that it might be a necessary thing to bomb someone at some point, so target selection is something left to human faculty and moral contemplation.
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03-04-2013, 10:36 AM
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#46
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Here is a good 5 minute discussion among Christians from Larry King on this subject.
I suppose we can put our trust in the united nations... 
__________________
"It's easier to convince a person that a government should be doing something for them it currently isn't than to convince a person that government shouldn't be doing something for them it currently is."
Allen West
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03-04-2013, 10:38 AM
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#47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamliner
Neither is total devotion to Caesar.
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I did not realize supporting protection is total devotion to Caesar...
__________________
"It's easier to convince a person that a government should be doing something for them it currently isn't than to convince a person that government shouldn't be doing something for them it currently is."
Allen West
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03-04-2013, 10:55 AM
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#48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiGator2002
No, I don't suppose He did, but then, He also didn't definitively rule out the notion that it might be a necessary thing to bomb someone at some point, so target selection is something left to human faculty and moral contemplation.
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... and Caesar ?
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03-04-2013, 11:23 AM
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#49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamliner
... and Caesar ?
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I don't really see how being supportive of troops and trying to be proactive about protecting our country is seen as devotion to Caesar. After all, our current Caesar I would bet is currently very disliked amongst most if the American Christians were talking about.
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03-04-2013, 11:27 AM
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#50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim85
I don't really see how being supportive of troops and trying to be proactive about protecting our country is seen as devotion to Caesar. After all, our current Caesar I would bet is currently very disliked amongst most if the American Christians were talking about.
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Why are followers of Christ wringing their hands about their country ? Shouldn't they be minding the church ? Instead of disliking the current Caesar (the Caesar they didn't vote for), shouldn't they be disliking their double-mindedness ?
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03-04-2013, 11:31 AM
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#51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamliner
Why are followers of Christ wringing their hands about their country ? Shouldn't they be minding the church ? Instead of disliking the current Caesar (the Caesar they didn't vote for), shouldn't they be disliking their double-mindedness ?
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Why are the followers of Christ also thieves, murderers, adulterers, selfish, greedy? Also, how much time have you spent in different churches across America to know that American Christians are collectively and generally double minded when it comes to this?
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03-04-2013, 11:35 AM
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#52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim85
Why are the followers of Christ also thieves, murderers, adulterers, selfish, greedy? Also, how much time have you spent in different churches across America to know that American Christians are collectively and generally double minded when it comes to this?
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Because I've talked with so many Christians like yourself, Christians whose thoughts so quickly run to defending America, serving America, and otherwise apologizing for her sins.
Isn't our citizenship in heaven ?
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03-04-2013, 11:43 AM
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#53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamliner
... and Caesar ?
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... and Wayne Newton?
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03-04-2013, 11:44 AM
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#54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiGator2002
... and Wayne Newton?
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Why not ? I mean, it's not like Christians are interested in worshipping Christ.
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03-04-2013, 11:50 AM
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#55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamliner
Because I've talked with so many Christians like yourself, Christians whose thoughts so quickly run to defending America, serving America, and otherwise apologizing for her sins.
Isn't our citizenship in heaven ?
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We should consult the volumes and volumes of helpful teaching and wisdom Jesus gave us when he returned to reign and be our God back in the late first century. I mean, it isn't like He would come back and then just not offer so much as one quotable insight to guide humanity toward His will for the next couple of millennia... er... hmm.
The moral right of self-defense, or the moral obligation to defend the weak and the innocent, don't require or assume that you, the agent, are morally flawless. You are not worshipping yourself when you exercise them.
So it follows that when these rights and obligations are aggregated by a nation, it isn't an implied assertion that there is a divine charter for that nation. Now, I will concede that sometimes people spiritualize the United States beyond what is appropriate, but the are independent phenomena. Your view, Dream, would seem to set a standard by which the only way to disprove state "idolatry" would be to always stand idly by, to never intercede on your own behalf or on behalf of one whom you could protect from injustice.
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03-04-2013, 11:51 AM
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#56
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Moderator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamliner
Why not ? I mean, it's not like Christians are interested in worshipping Christ.
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It was a comment on the abject non sequitur that was chirping "... and Caesar" at me.
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03-04-2013, 11:55 AM
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#57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiGator2002
We should consult the volumes and volumes of helpful teaching and wisdom Jesus gave us when he returned to reign and be our God back in the late first century. I mean, it isn't like He would come back and then just not offer so much as one quotable insight to guide humanity toward His will for the next couple of millennia... er... hmm.
The moral right of self-defense, or the moral obligation to defend the weak and the innocent, don't require or assume that you, the agent, are morally flawless. You are not worshipping yourself when you exercise them.
So it follows that when these rights and obligations are aggregated by a nation, it isn't an implied assertion that there is a divine charter for that nation. Now, I will concede that sometimes people spiritualize the United States beyond what is appropriate, but the are independent phenomena. Your view, Dream, would seem to set a standard by which the only way to disprove state "idolatry" would be to always stand idly by, to never intercede on your own behalf or on behalf of one whom you could protect from injustice.
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Dear Jesus -
We DEMAND the 'moral right to defend' ourselves!
Signed,
The Wayne Newtonians
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03-04-2013, 11:57 AM
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#58
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Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2007
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Don't need to ask it, we already have it. It is implicit in the dignity of human life. You pretty much just outed yourself as believing self-defense is in and of itself un-Christian, though, which brings us back to you inventing a false theology of total passivity.
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03-04-2013, 12:00 PM
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#59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichiGator2002
Don't need to ask it, we already have it. It is implicit in the dignity of human life. You pretty much just outed yourself as believing self-defense is in and of itself un-Christian, though, which brings us back to you inventing a false theology of total passivity.
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Yes, but it's also good to have Jesus on reserve, just in case you need to drag him in.
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03-04-2013, 12:16 PM
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#60
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All SEC
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Location: Jacksonville, FL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamliner
Why not ? I mean, it's not like Christians are interested in worshipping Christ.
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Would a christian be anyone claiming to follow Christ, or those actually following Christ?
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