BELIEF IN THE EXISTENCE OF GOD and REINCARNATION

[Gatormb]

Originally Posted by CHFG8R

Interesting. Correct me if I'm wrong, but these things (bolded) sound very similar to aspects of Hinduism. On a side note, I actually was trying to look up the word for it (Brahamin, I think, at least as some Hindus define it) and was struck by all the information on the Wiki page. What an interesting religious tradition. I got stuck on that for about an hour.

Heinz57. Little of this little of that all mixed in together for one happy family.

[Gatormb]

Originally Posted by cocodrilo

But karma should tell you whether you were good or bad.

coco, if reincarnation exists, I hope it's the Eastern version and a number of people on Too Hot come back as a tree, get harvested for paper and end up with the Bible being printed on them.

Speaking of Karma!

[gatorman_07732]

Originally Posted by Lawdog88

Some have an issue with the Catholic view that salvation is held out in front of a penitent believer like a carrot on a stick, such that the believer can only "know" it for certain, if and only if, "earn" it by some sort of personal effort or some sacramental acts, day by day.

Of course, the Protestant view is that we cannot "earn" or merit the Grace of God, no matter how we live, even by the act of asking for it; all we can do is receive it and thereafter, allow the working of the Holy Spirit to regenerate us away from the "old" man.

The way I see it is, if you're comfortable with it, and believe it then go for it. As long as you're practicing and giving all your faith you have everything to gain and nothing to lose. I would never discourage anyone of their beliefs and give the impression that mine is superior to anyone else's faith. The most important thing is having your personal relationship.

[Lawdog88]

Originally Posted by gatorman_07732

The way I see it is, if you're comfortable with it, and believe it then go for it. As long as you're practicing and giving all your faith you have everything to gain and nothing to lose. I would never discourage anyone of their beliefs and give the impression that mine is superior to anyone else's faith. The most important thing is having your personal relationship.

You hit the sweet spot with that one, GMan.

[CHFG8R]

Originally Posted by Gatormb

Heinz57. Little of this little of that all mixed in together for one happy family.

I'm curious why you feel the need to denigrate other people's beliefs in this way? Did I dispariage Christianity in this post? No.

Did you have an experience where Hindus denounced your beliefs and now you feel the need to reciprocate?

What do you fear that you feel the need to react to a harmless post in this way? Sorry, but it's kinda sad.

[CHFG8R]

Originally Posted by gatorman_07732

The way I see it is, if you're comfortable with it, and believe it then go for it. As long as you're practicing and giving all your faith you have everything to gain and nothing to lose. I would never discourage anyone of their beliefs and give the impression that mine is superior to anyone else's faith. The most important thing is having your personal relationship.

You, my friend, "get it."

[lacuna]

Originally Posted by CHFG8R

Interesting. Correct me if I'm wrong, but these things (bolded) sound very similar to aspects of Hinduism. On a side note, I actually was trying to look up the word for it (Brahamin, I think, at least as some Hindus define it) and was struck by all the information on the Wiki page. What an interesting religious tradition. I got stuck on that for about an hour.

There are a number of striking similarities. The Vedas - the sacred writings of the Hindustani cultures - are the source of a number of fascinating myths that have interesting parallels in both Judaism and Christianity.

Brahma is considered to be the creative agent of the 3 major Gods in the triune Hindu tradition. Brahma's consort is Saraswati. Depending on which of the many myths associated with these two, Saraswati is not only his consort but also his daughter. Some of the myths have her as his sister. Brahma is revered by his devotees as being the source or father of mankind, with Saraswati being the mother.

God told Abram that he would be the father of a "multitude" of nations. (Genesis 17:4) God then said Abram's name was to be Abraham and his wife Sarai was to be known as Sarah. On two occasions Abraham tried to convince 2 Canaanite kings Sarah was his sister rather than his wife.

Abraham's nephew, Lot, fathered two nations incestuously with his 2 daughters who seduced their drunken father.

Whether or not there was a direct link between the Torah and the ancient Vedas that precede the writings traditionally accredited to Moses, it is indicative of an underlying commonality that has been lost but for what is left to us in those sacred writings.

[Tim85]

Originally Posted by lacuna

There are a number of striking similarities. The Vedas - the sacred writings of the Hindustani cultures - are the source of a number of fascinating myths that have interesting parallels in both Judaism and Christianity.

Brahma is considered to be the creative agent of the 3 major Gods in the triune Hindu tradition. Brahma's consort is Saraswati. Depending on which of the many myths associated with these two, Saraswati is not only his consort but also his daughter. Some of the myths have her as his sister. Brahma is revered by his devotees as being the source or father of mankind, with Saraswati being the mother.

God told Abram that he would be the father of a "multitude" of nations. (Genesis 17:4) God then said Abram's name was to be Abraham and his wife Sarai was to be known as Sarah. On two occasions Abraham tried to convince 2 Canaanite kings Sarah was his sister rather than his wife.

Abraham's nephew, Lot, fathered two nations incestuously with his 2 daughters who seduced their drunken father.

Whether or not there was a direct link between the Torah and the ancient Vedas that precede the writings traditionally accredited to Moses, it is indicative of an underlying commonality that has been lost but for what is left to us in those sacred writings.

Couldn't a lot of the stories have similarities almost solely from the Biblical story of Babel? I'm not really all that informed on the subject, but it seems like that could explain why there are "striking similarities."

[HALLGATOR]

Originally Posted by lacuna

Deep questions, Steve. I would imagine you have mulled them over and over in your mind before bringing them to the forum.

I don't know that what I think will bring you any comfort or reassurance but I'll respond and offer perspectives that are outside and beyond orthodox Christian doctrine for consideration.

First off - I don't believe in a "Supreme Being." I do consider myself to be a theist - more specifically a panenetheist, but this concept of God is more in keeping with orthodox Judaism than orthodox Christianity. When Moses encountered God and asked God His name, he was told God's name was Ayeh Asher Ayeh. This translates to 'I Will Be What I Will Be' or 'I Am What I Am Becoming'. It denotes a dynamic process rather than a Being set apart. God is more Verb-like than Noun.

In Deuteronomy 6 the omnipresence of God is heard through the proclamation:

Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One.
Shema Israel, Adonai Elohenu, Adonai Echad

The Hebrew word Echad, translated as 'One', is a word meaning undivided wholeness, singularity. Judaism generally regards the phrase to mean God is intrinsically involved in and with creation or the Universe - every thing that exists. God is not separate from all we perceive and we are not separate from God. We are in God and God is in us. God is not a Being. God is Being.

Acts 17:28 relates Paul telling the Athenians it is God in whom "we live and move and have our being."

I need to make it clear, I do not believe the Bible should be interpreted literally as Fundamentalist and Evangelicals believe it should be. I do believe however, the Book holds much spiritual truth conveyed in metaphorical stories and other sage writings and prophecies. It is a Book with many layers of understanding.

In Genesis it is written God breathed into Adam (man) the breath of life (God's spirit) and man became a living soul. In Ecclesiastes it is written at the time of death the spirit of the deceased "returns to God who gave it." In Hebrews it is written the 'word of God is sharper than a 2 edged sword, dividing soul from spirit.'

So what happens to the soul? Jesus said there would be no marriage in the resurrection: "they cannot any more die; for they are equal to the angels, and are the sons of God, being sons of the resurrection." That seemingly implies there will be no physical body. Man became a "living soul" when the spirit of God was breathed into him. When the spirit returns to God upon man's death, the soul ceases to exist.


(This is not the end, but I've got to go out for a few hours. Will continue later.)

Good post lacuna, I was particularly interested to find what you write of with respect to how God answered Moses. In my past readings it was presented as "I am that I am" or "I am". Moving this translation into verb form lends a whole new light on it and provides new food for thought. I have, for many years, thought we were part of a process if there is indeed an afterlife.

[grayg8rstevo]

Terrific responses. My understandings are Christian with some concepts outside those belief systems, which I believe are companion thoughts. At the core, there is only reuniting with the ETERNAL CREATOR. The CREATOR is all there is. We are all energy
and all part of ONE, yet distinct, and wherever we are when we are here, if sure seems like we are far apart. How is that for conundrums? I am always interested in what others think on the most important question of all time. Thanks, keep it coming.

[gatorman_07732]

Originally Posted by grayg8rstevo

Terrific responses. My understandings are Christian with some concepts outside those belief systems, which I believe are companion thoughts. At the core, there is only reuniting with the ETERNAL CREATOR. The CREATOR is all there is. We are all energy
and all part of ONE, yet distinct, and wherever we are when we are here, if sure seems like we are far apart. How is that for conundrums? I am always interested in what others think on the most important question of all time. Thanks, keep it coming.

The bottom line gray is it's great to discuss these things but not judge. I think most of us that posted on this thread appreciate your inquisitiveness.

[lacuna]

Sorry for the break. But to continue -

I Think from the verses in Genesis and Ecclesiastes I referred to earlier it could be deduced the soul, the egoistic aspect of our self, is produced from a joining of sorts (a marriage?) between the physical and the spiritual. When the physical is no longer capable of sustaining life as we recognize it, the joining is dissolved, the soul disintegrates and the spirit returns to Source.

I don't think the returning spirit retains memories, emotions or connections to the physical life most recently experienced in a way we can easily relate to. I think this apportioned spirit is part of the Universal Mind we commonly refer to as 'God'. This discrete allotted and incarnated portion allows God to experience and physically participate in Universal Totality. We are unaware of our greater heritage because it is limited, screened and opposed through our physical nature.

The natural world is an awesome center of recycling and revolution. The earth revolves, day endlessly merges into night and back again into day. The spinning earth in turn circles unceasingly around its solar center. The galaxy spins and repositions itself returning to a given point over a period of many thousands of years.

Bodies die and decay into elemental substances to sustain life in other forms. Water evaporates and is recycled endlessly through rainfall. Why is it so absurd to think our spiritual aspect - our conscious awareness, unencumbered with the emotional ties and egoistic impulses associated with our physical nature cannot also be recycled?

The Bible does not deny a rebirth but possibly for one verse that is frequently proof texted as evidence rebirth does not occur. Considered in context I don't think that's what it is necessarily saying:

Hebrews 9:23-28 ...
23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence.
25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own.
26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

This short verse is not denying the possibility the spiritual aspect of a person is reborn into another when the accounts of the former life are paid. Karma may even dictate future lifespan[s] are necessary to settle accounts.

Apparently the disciples had more than a passing acquaintance with the concept of rebirth and retribution as they asked Jesus in John 9:2 ... "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"

In Matthew 11 Jesus tells his disciples John the Baptist is the prophesied return of the prophet Elijah. "He who has ears, let him hear."

If verses from the Bible are the basis for deciding whether rebirth is fact, there are more verses indicating it is true than the single one in Hebrews that is cited to disprove it. Orthodox Judaism, then and now, fully embraces the concept of rebirth.

Jesus said (Matthew 7:21-23) 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’
23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

What is the will of the Father? It's what Jesus has been teaching and what he continued to teach throughout his remaining time on earth. The 3 synoptic gospels that record his teachings do not have him saying his followers had to "believe in him" to be saved from a fiery eternal punishment. The esoteric Gospel of John is an entirely different emphasis on the incarnation of the Christ. I don't think it should be interpreted or understood as literally as the 3 synoptics are generally.

Christian orthodoxy rejects the concept of spiritual rebirth because it contradicts the dogma that requires Jesus to be an atoning sacrifice for our sins. The atonement doctrine commonplace in most evangelical churches today is the theory of Penal Substitution. It is not, I repeat, not the theory of atonement that was taught or believed in the earliest years of the incipient church. The followers of Jesus were more familiar with the Ransom theory (also now known as the Christus Victor Theory) of atonement. It is more in keeping with what Jesus said in Matthew 7 about doing the will of the Father as the means of entering the Kingdom of Heaven and does not require the Christian to believe in Jesus as much as it states the necessity of believing Jesus and doing what he taught.

In 1st Corinthians 5:7 Paul referred to Jesus as "our Passover Lamb." The trust the Israelites placed in the sacrificial rite of the Passover Lamb was what freed them from their bondage in Egypt. The self sacrifice of Jesus, and trust in believing what he taught, is what frees us from the bondage of sin in our life today. When we deeply apprehend and embrace the truth of his words and teachings, we don't want to sin any more. We shoulder our cross and follow in his steps. That's not to say temptation is removed. We all know it is not. But it does enable us to recognize the enslaving power sin holds over us. The truth sets us free (John 8:31,32).

If we don't get it right. Rejoice, sinner! We've got a chance to come back and re-test!

[wargunfan]

Originally Posted by gatorman_07732

Awesome question coco. Not everybody can have a true belief of salvation and Eternal life, because to do so you need to leave certain things in the hands of god especially during times of turmoil in your life. I can't emphasize how difficult this can be, but it is the difference when you put the lord in charge of your life and trust him. If one chooses to take there life, they have certainly not reached that point.

Not to hijack the thread, but this is an interesting question about suicide. I have known Viet Nam veterans who had accepted Christ as their Savior and lived a life of faith for many years. Then at some point they became depressed (PTSD?) and killed themselves. I believe God makes allowances for those poor souls who fall into depression and choose to seek relief by ending their lives. God's mercy and loving kindness towards His children is from everlasting to everlasting.

[CHFG8R]

Lacuna, that sounds a lot like what I've been reading about Hinduism. This was an interesting paragraph from the Wiki page.

Hinduism grants absolute and complete freedom of belief and worship.[73][74][75] Hinduism conceives the whole world as a single family that deifies the one truth, and therefore it accepts all forms of beliefs and dismisses labels of distinct religions which would imply a division of identity.[76] Hence, Hinduism is devoid of the concepts of apostasy, heresy and blasphemy

A refreshing way to look at it if you ask me.

[lacuna]

Originally Posted by Tim85

Couldn't a lot of the stories have similarities almost solely from the Biblical story of Babel? I'm not really all that informed on the subject, but it seems like that could explain why there are "striking similarities."

There is an ancient commonality to all the stories that is impossible to ferret out. We can only marvel at the similarities and parallels and appreciate the deeper truths they attempt to convey. Aldous Huxley spoke of a Perennial Philosophy, a single underlying truth that was the foundation of all the world's religious traditions prior to the mythology and accumulation of dogma that all inevitably acquire.

[HALLGATOR]

Originally Posted by wargunfan

Not to hijack the thread, but this is an interesting question about suicide. I have known Viet Nam veterans who had accepted Christ as their Savior and lived a life of faith for many years. Then at some point they became depressed (PTSD?) and killed themselves. I believe God makes allowances for those poor souls who fall into depression and choose to seek relief by ending their lives. God's mercy and loving kindness towards His children is from everlasting to everlasting.

I've never thought that a person who commits suicide could be considered sane as we normally view it. Perhaps in rare occasions, such as the terminally ill or someone in excruciating pain but when a person reaches the depths of mind and spirit that self-inflicted death is a viable option they have entered into the realm of insanity in my opinion.

[gatorman_07732]

Originally Posted by wargunfan

Not to hijack the thread, but this is an interesting question about suicide. I have known Viet Nam veterans who had accepted Christ as their Savior and lived a life of faith for many years. Then at some point they became depressed (PTSD?) and killed themselves. I believe God makes allowances for those poor souls who fall into depression and choose to seek relief by ending their lives. God's mercy and loving kindness towards His children is from everlasting to everlasting.

War, regardless of what one goes through if you truly give yourself to him for the answer suicide will never be the answer. Their sickness over came there will for god to take over their life. We must look at Jesus Christ and ask who has gone through more than him. My opinions and mine only

[lacuna]

Originally Posted by HALLGATOR

Good post lacuna, I was particularly interested to find what you write of with respect to how God answered Moses. In my past readings it was presented as "I am that I am" or "I am". Moving this translation into verb form lends a whole new light on it and provides new food for thought. I have, for many years, thought we were part of a process if there is indeed an afterlife.

God is a totality. Christian orthodoxy teaches God is a Trinity with the 3 aspects being Father, Son and Spirit. Hindu traditions also recognize a triune aspect to God as Brahma being the creative aspect, Shiva as destroyer and Vishnu as the stabilizing force. I think the Vedas are closer to reality than Christian theological doctrines on this subject.

As a thoughtful exercise I sometimes envision God through word play.

God is the Lover, the Beloved and the Loving.

The Knower, the Known and the Knowledge.

The Actor, the Acted Upon and the Action.

God is Totality. God opposes, accepts or receives then transforms.

Possibilities are endless.

There is a theological theory called Process Theology. It's embraces God as endless panentheistic manifestation. There's a lot on the 'Net having to do with Process Theology so you might want to do a 'google' search on the subject for further reading.

[wargunfan]

Originally Posted by gatorman_07732

War, regardless of what one goes through if you truly give yourself to him for the answer suicide will never be the answer. Their sickness over came there will for god to take over their life. We must look at Jesus Christ and ask who has gone through more than him. My opinions and mine only

Of course suicide is not a rational answer to life's problems. Mired in the pit of depression one ceases to be rational. Men who have come back from the horrors of war suffer mental and emotional traumas you and I don't fully understand. My point is that when a Christian commits suicide we can't assume that the act nullifies their salvation. Even the strongest of Christians have lost marriages, relationships, even their sanity. When suicide is the last act of an emotionally broken Christian my belief is that God understands and forgives.

[gatorman_07732]

Originally Posted by wargunfan

Of course suicide is not a rational answer to life's problems. Mired in the pit of depression one ceases to be rational. Men who have come back from the horrors of war suffer mental and emotional traumas you and I don't fully understand. My point is that when a Christian commits suicide we can't assume that the act nullifies their salvation. Even the strongest of Christians have lost marriages, relationships, even their sanity. When suicide is the last act of an emotionally broken Christian my belief is that God understands and forgives.

War, I appreciate you diving into this whole other side of this phenomenon and can only tell you what I think from my spiritual side of things. I think this might well be worth a thread with some posters on here that have much to contribute. Not to mention any names, but I think we can really have a good conversation of ideas as long as we respect those ideas.