NBN has changed my mind on things

[don23lucia]

Originally Posted by gatormann

I s there anybody out there that doesn't think Kentucky will be among the favorites to win it all next season?

I dont think so early on I think people will be a little more weary of giving all the incoming freshmen so much attention till they start winning, I think the Gators will be the hands down favorite to win it all next year.

[BEH]

Originally Posted by newmexicogator

The key to last years team was Darius Miller. You cannot convince me otherwise. When they faced adversity and the freshmen were clueless you had a guy like him picking up the slack. If you look at his tenure at UK he came in under a different coach where he underperformed and blossomed into a good player under Calipari. Bu the key was he stayed 4 years. I dont think any player who is good enough to be like Darius miller will stay for 4 yrs under Cal. That will be what prevents UK from winning another title IMO. The key to UFs 2006 title were Moss and Chris Richard who gave that stabilizing factor. Any NC team has a guy or two like that.

Does UF have a guy like that this year? I am hoping Murphy and KB are those guys. But it is yet to be seen.

I don't disagree with your post at all. In fact Calipari also has the same view. This year he brought in Mays and Harrow at guard and returned Hood and Beckham. However, three of the four have been sick or hurt. So this season UK is not a threat especially now that Noel is out for the season. Also folks Miller was a five star recruit just like Liggins and Patterson, so they were not players who came out of nowhere.

But the idea that John Calipari plans to play all freshmen is what is so stupid in some of these threads. Calipari does not make the rules he just lives under the rules. He has a proven track record of refining a kids game in one year. They come in a good talent; however, Calipari does develop them and their game. Calipari tell everyone that will listen to him that he hates the one and done yet opposing fans use it against him.

Next year UK will bring back some talent again. It will be ignored but they will be there getting their minutes.

[REM08]

Originally Posted by 108

UK won last year because some unexpected players stayed a second year and they had some good role players from the previous regime to add to the freshman class

Cal has to find a way to mimic that or it will be a hard thing to duplicate

It's hard to respect Cal as a coach the way he does it now...all-world recruiter but what else?

A lot of "else." He's a phenomenal motivator and is, most years, as good at getting maximum defensive effort and getting kids, especially young ones, to "buy in" as any coach in the country. Something else that gets overlooked is his skill in end of game situations and designed plays coming out of timeouts.

In no way is Cal the best coach in the world or anything, but you won't find many people tied to college basketball that think he's only a recruiter. Ask Billy D what he thinks of his ability as a coach. Rick Pitino has said multiple times that Calipari is fully responsible for one of the 3 best program building jobs in the history of college basketball. I dont' know if Rick is right about that, but he's said it multiple times and even lists the other two in his top three.

[BengermanV]

Originally Posted by BEH

Other than Jeff, No.

I don't. Unless you get Wiggins, I'll take our roster next year over UK's.

[MJGator8104]

Flu's tough and you'll probably have a better outlook when you're not feverish. Things look and feel a lot worse and/or hopeless when you, yourself, are sick. Hope you're feeling better, Jeff.

[GatorRade]

Originally Posted by Colin

Exactly. He got you to the FF twice, with one title. No one should be complaining.

Agreed. I think Jeff is taking this a little far, like our fans with somewhat non-objective view of UK. There are definitely somethings that senior led teams will give you and some things that talented freshman led teams will give you. Titles are hard to come by either way, but I don't think they are too much less likely with the latter team.

[gtr2x]

In general I would agree about the need for veteran leadership, tho it doesnt necessarily need to be seniors, juniors can be just fine.

Of course if you recruit the next Lebron James/Magic Johnson/Michael Jordan, etc, then veterans are more of a luxury that you can win without having.

[rtgator]

Originally Posted by BEH

I don't disagree with your post at all. In fact Calipari also has the same view. This year he brought in Mays and Harrow at guard and returned Hood and Beckham. However, three of the four have been sick or hurt. So this season UK is not a threat especially now that Noel is out for the season. Also folks Miller was a five star recruit just like Liggins and Patterson, so they were not players who came out of nowhere.
But the idea that John Calipari plans to play all freshmen is what is so stupid in some of these threads. Calipari does not make the rules he just lives under the rules. He has a proven track record of refining a kids game in one year. They come in a good talent; however, Calipari does develop them and their game. Calipari tell everyone that will listen to him that he hates the one and done yet opposing fans use it against him.

Next year UK will bring back some talent again. It will be ignored but they will be there getting their minutes.

You're right. He didn't come out of nowhere. He was 2008 Kentucky Mr. Basketball.

But, he represents a senior who had a major role in assisting the true freshmen and sophomores in their quest for a national title. I don't know if they could have won it without Miller.

Hence, the need for upperclassmen to bring leadership and experience to the youthful, largely inexperienced roster. They had that last year. Not so much this year.

[dangolegators]

I would lose interest in UF basketball if we followed UK's model of renting one-and-done players every year. I love seeing players develop over 3 or 4 years. UK can have all these lottery pick one year players. Obviously UF is going to have one-and-done players from time to time, and that's fine. But 4 or 5 of them a year? That would suck. And I agree with the OP that it is not a good way to win NCs. But even if it were, I would not prefer it.

[themistocles]

Lots of really interesting notes here.

Billy D was an incredible recruiter of Mickey D All Americans when he came to UF, despite it being a football school. Up until his time, the Gators had recruited a grand total of 3 Mickey D players. within 3 years, he had recruited 4 (Miller, Dupay, Nelson & Harvey), and then he recruited 3 (Lee, Brown & White). But, as was noted, their tendency to jump ship caused him to go more for the Brent Wright, Al Horford, Noah (30-75) types, with a few top guys (Brewer, Beal, etc.) sprinkled in.

I thought Cali's comment ("Where do you find the 4-year players?") was rather interesting.

The answer is simple, you don't find them among the top 25 rated kids coming out of high school, but between 26 and 150, and there are many, many, very talented players in that range.

Very interesting discussion.

EXPERIENCE simply cannot be replaced. That is why there is recognition of the jump between Frosh and Soph (which 19-year old Wilbekin realized this year due to [1] no more Walker, and [2] maturing physically).

[REM08]

Originally Posted by rtgator

You're right. He didn't come out of nowhere. He was 2008 Kentucky Mr. Basketball.

But, he represents a senior who had a major role in assisting the true freshmen and sophomores in their quest for a national title. I don't know if they could have won it without Miller.

Hence, the need for upperclassmen to bring leadership and experience to the youthful, largely inexperienced roster. They had that last year. Not so much this year.

Every year there are a given number of 5 star prospects. Most all of them have the ability to make a big impact on the college scene. Only some of them have the skills or athleticism (or potential - which is key and sometimes all they need) to warrant being a relatively high pick in the following year's NBA draft.

I think the latter group is more likely to choose Kentucky, on average, than the other group of players who either dont' translate to the NBA as well or just need more time before scouts will take them seriously. This is a gift and a curse for UK IMO. A gift because we end up with more of the supremely talented or "special" type players. But a curse because this type is much more likely to leave early. The key for UK is whether a players NBA potential is realized enough that they're very effective as freshmen in college. Some years, like this year, this isnt' the case.

As the above posts point out, Darius Miller and Deandre Liggins are example of relatively high rated players that didn't have the early entry options that others did. I think Billy has had some great examples of this group as well. I think we're ALL in agreement that, ideally, you have some of both.

My theory is that Cal is such a big draw for early entry candidates that the other category of players are actually less interested in playing for him also. This creates an odd situation where Cal has a much easier time landing the very top players, but actually a harder time of getting guys ranked lower. Honestly, I'm a 5'9 white guy and LOVE Kentucky basketball. But were I 18 and offered a scholarship from Cal (and really thought I had NBA potential in the future), I'd probably choose to play somewhere else where I woudlnt' be expecting to play behind the newest John Wall every year.

[BEH]

Originally Posted by 108

UK won last year because some unexpected players stayed a second year and they had some good role players from the previous regime to add to the freshman class

Cal has to find a way to mimic that or it will be a hard thing to duplicate

It's hard to respect Cal as a coach the way he does it now...all-world recruiter but what else?

It is hard for you to respect Cal as a coach because of the way he does it? Well it is the same way all coaches do it. He recruits no differently than any other coach, except he has a reputation for telling recruits the truth instead of lying to them. He promices them total hell at UK if they come because that is what it takes to reach the kids goals of being the best he can be. Calipari does have the best school to recruit to because they have the best facilities and following, but other than that he has to develop his own tools to convince the kids to come to his school as all other coaches.

All world recruiter, a good x's and o's coach and a very decent human being who gives a large portion of his income back to his community.

If winning a title was easy then there would be no basketball fans. A national title takes talent, good coaching, good health and some basic good luck. I think that talent and coaching are the two most important, otherwise coaches would be interchangable parts and would make minimum wage.

[BEH]

Originally Posted by BengermanV

I don't. Unless you get Wiggins, I'll take our roster next year over UK's.

Okay, take UF and I will take UK. I will give you five points a game.

[dailydoublecat]

Wow this has turned into a great thread with opinions and thoughts. I am feeling a little better of day 3 of Tamiflu, but gosh this is the pits. My frustration is from someone I trust we are losing tons and will be starting over. It is getting old to me as it still blows my mind that these freshmen are leaving and they aren't very good IMHO.

I would like Calipari to add some players that will stay for a bit is all. He makes 4 mill figure it out!!
Jeff

[BengermanV]

Originally Posted by BEH

Okay, take UF and I will take UK. I will give you five points a game.

Sounds like a deal!

So you would take:

Harrison
Harrison
Young
Lee
Johnson

With little to no depth behind them (we'll assume your bench looks similar to this year's).

Over...

Wilbekin/Hill
Frazier/Walker/Graham
Finney-Smith/Prather
Walker/Yeguete
Young (?)/Harris

?

I'm going to go with the team that has as just as much talent (and most of ours will be proven) and way more experience, with the better in-game coach on our sideline. Both teams will be great, however.

[don23lucia]

Originally Posted by BEH

Okay, take UF and I will take UK. I will give you five points a game.

Ill take that too.

[REM08]

Originally Posted by BengermanV

Sounds like a deal!

So you would take:

Harrison
Harrison
Young
Lee
Johnson

With little to no depth behind them (we'll assume your bench looks similar to this year's).

Over...

Wilbekin/Hill
Frazier/Walker/Graham
Finney-Smith/Prather
Walker/Yeguete
Young (?)/Harris

?

I'm going to go with the team that has as just as much talent (and most of ours will be proven) and way more experience, with the better in-game coach on our sideline. Both teams will be great, however.

No one would take a 5 man team unless it was a group of NBA allstars. Give me two decent returnees and if those freshmen pan out like the average freshmen has under Cal, I'll take UK's team. I disagree that UF's roster has just as much talent. What I'll give you is that UF's roster may have equal or greater than UK when it comes to players ready to contribute in college next year. Some of this depends on some panning out for Florida just like UK. Two freshmen, transfers (which usually don't set the world on fire as a rule) and a partly new team that would have to gel. You guys have so many pieces you certainly don't need to hit for the same batting average as UK will next season as far as players meeting expectations. I'll take UK's ceiling all day long, but its not a given they'll hit this.

[REM08]

Originally Posted by dailydoublecat

Wow this has turned into a great thread with opinions and thoughts. I am feeling a little better of day 3 of Tamiflu, but gosh this is the pits. My frustration is from someone I trust we are losing tons and will be starting over. It is getting old to me as it still blows my mind that these freshmen are leaving and they aren't very good IMHO.

I would like Calipari to add some players that will stay for a bit is all. He makes 4 mill figure it out!!
Jeff

I hate the flu so much I never go without the vaccine. I've been lucky so far and the vaccine has always worked out - as far as I can tell. Hope things get better for ya though.

What Jeff is taling about, correct me if I'm wrong though, is that there are a contigent of UK insider-types that insist that UK will lose every contributing player from this year. I've heard one guy even say that the ONLY returning player from this year's team will be Jarod Polson. The guy I listen to the most (value the opinion of) suggests that while this is possible, it is very unlikely.

If Jeff's peeps are right, I'll be VERY frustrated with this year also. Its been easy as a UK fan (for me at least) to get on board with what Cal has been doing considering the great contributions we've gotten to enjoy from most one and done players. Its not as fun to only see them there a year, but if they're ready for the league, I'm ALL for them going. --- This all changes for me when we start getting fairly pathetic performances from freshmen who get drafted on potential alone after one unsuccessful season at Kentucky. Thats when I'll change my tune. I can live with whatever happens this year, but it can't become a theme going forward that Cal is unable to adjust to.

[GatorRade]

Originally Posted by dailydoublecat

Wow this has turned into a great thread with opinions and thoughts. I am feeling a little better of day 3 of Tamiflu, but gosh this is the pits. My frustration is from someone I trust we are losing tons and will be starting over. It is getting old to me as it still blows my mind that these freshmen are leaving and they aren't very good IMHO.

I would like Calipari to add some players that will stay for a bit is all. He makes 4 mill figure it out!!
Jeff

I remember a Florida-Kentucky from the early 2000s. I am guessing this was 2003. Florida was littered with young all Americans. Tubby Smith's team was filled with 4 year players. Their defense was swarming. Florida could barely even pass the ball around the perimeter! To my recollection, the Gators lost by around 20 points..both games. I remember thinking this collecting of 1-2 year players was not a recipe for success (despite a final four run just a couple years earlier).

Anyway, I think you see my point, Jeff. It's easy to get caught up in "traditional wisdom" once your team gets whacked by a traditional team. But man, your cats were hell last year. And so were the 2000 Gators. You guys are going to have up and down years, but your up will be way up.

[themistocles]

Well, this has turned into a very interesting discussion regarding the very nature of NCAA basketball.

Tons of excellent points that point all over the place.

Interestingly enough, I think that everyone and every point is at least partly correct.

The thing is that an incredible game like Basketball, which few games rival, perhaps Chess (I used to be an outstanding chess player and was watching a Grand Master Play once on Venice Beach in California and was astounded because he was absolutely destroying a player that I thought was playing great, until a fellow let me know who the CRUSHER was), and perhaps a few other games, but Basketball is so incredibly complex that all manner of dependent coarisings occur which makes it very difficult to predict much, except in those exceedingly rare situations like last years Ky team, or the Lew Alcindor UCLA teams.

Thanks a lot Jeff for getting sick, but hopefully you are feeling better now and are more optimistic about the future.

Fortunately, being a Ky fan, you know that things are likely to get better in the future than they are now. Not many can say that in down times.