Dr. Ben Carson speaks truth to Obama at prayer breakfast.

[DaveFla]

Originally Posted by rivergator

No, that's not what I said. Go back and read it again.



I'm not sure that sharing the belief of your church is exactly 'guilt by association.' I suppose it's possible that he doesn't believe anything his church does, but that'd be a bit odd, don't you think?

I did. You made the claim that he believed the earth is only 6,000 years old. I asked you to provide proof. Lacuna linked to some Washington comPost blog article which made the attempt to do what your are doing here; that is, discredit the doctor for being affiliated with a group who may, or may not believe that the earth is 6,000 years old.

The use of the absolute term "anything" above is yet another river-isms... To you, apparently, it is absolute. Either he belongs, and therefore, agrees with everything his group claims to represent, or he believes nothing the group believes, right?

Is it possible that he belongs to this group, yet doesn't agree 100% with everything they espouse? If not, isn't that contrary to that which you accused me of doing in e other thread.

It's simple. Provide me with a link where Dr. Carson claims that he believes the Earth is but 6,000 years old. I'm not even saying that he didn't say it, but only asking you to show me where he said it. It's clear that the Washington comPost won't back up their insinuation, but we all know that they're MUCH less credible than you are (and I mean that quite sincerely).

[Row6]

Too bad he has no manners and is apparently absorbed in his own sense of self importance.

The event was a "non partisan" prayer breakfast, not a spot for back benchers to promote their political ideas. The president followed with his remarks which ignored this fool and spoke in non partisan terms about working together despite differences in the name of faith and brotherhood.

[DaveFla]

Originally Posted by Row6

Too bad he has no manners and is apparently absorbed in his own sense of self importance.

The event was a "non partisan" prayer breakfast, not a spot for back benchers to promote their political ideas. The president followed with his remarks which ignored this fool and spoke in non partisan terms about working together despite differences in the name of faith and brotherhood.

I actually agree with this. It was the wrong venue to criticize Obama even though he wholly deserved this criticism, and MORE.

Of course, you also agree that the State of the Union address was the wrong venue for Obama to criticize the SCOTUS, right?

[JerseyGator01]

The doctor just wanted to ensure that the media didn't cover the prayer breakfast, so he criticized the Messiah.

[rivergator]

Originally Posted by DaveFla

I did. You made the claim that he believed the earth is only 6,000 years old. I asked you to provide proof.

You really need to learn the difference between "You said he said" and "apparently he believes ..."

Lacuna linked to some Washington comPost blog article which made the attempt to do what your are doing here; that is, discredit the doctor for being affiliated with a group who may, or may not believe that the earth is 6,000 years old.

Really, the Wash Post article was an attempt to discredit him? Did you read it? It explains there's a protest and said what the protest was about. And it went on to say:

Carson has given dozens of commencement speeches and received some 50 honorary degreesm but this is apparently the first time that his views on evolution have become an issue at a graduation.

Carson is world renowned for his work with children, becoming in 1987 the first surgeon to successfully separate siamese twins conjoined at the back of the head. In 2000 he was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the highest civilian award in the United States.

He is also known for his own life story — he was raised by a single mother in Detroit and struggled for a time in school but wound up at Yale University — and for his philanthropy: The Carson Scholars Fund recognizes exceptional young people.

Carson works at Johns Hopkins University, where he is director of the Division of Pediatric Neurosurgery, co-director of the Craniofacial Center and a professor of neurosurgery, oncology, plastic surgery and pediatrics.

real hatchet job, huh?

[gatorman_07732]

Originally Posted by DaveFla

I actually agree with this. It was the wrong venue to criticize Obama even though he wholly deserved this criticism, and MORE.

Of course, you also agree that the State of the Union address was the wrong venue for Obama to criticize the SCOTUS, right?

Screw that, they should have had people like him involved for ideas in healthcare reform instead of a bunch of lawyers and politicians. I'm sure he feels like much of the rest of us, that Obama stuck up our a$$. I sure hope you don't think Obama doesn't play by these nice tidy rules.

[DaveFla]

Originally Posted by rivergator

You really need to learn the difference between "You said he said" and "apparently he believes ..."



Really, the Wash Post article was an attempt to discredit him? Did you read it? It explains there's a protest and said what the protest was about. And it went on to say:



real hatchet job, huh?

I don't see where I used the term "hatchet job"... Perhaps you will point that out to me when you post your link to this Dr. saying that the Earth is 6,000 years old?

Anyway, this was the part of the comPost's blog article of which I was critical:

An unusual controversy has erupted at Emory University over the choice of famed neurosurgeon Ben Carson to deliver this year’s commencement address because he does not believe in evolution.

[does he not believe in evolution? If not, do you or the comPost have a link?]

Nearly 500 professors, student and alumni signed a letter (see full text below) expressing concern that Carson, as a 7th Day Adventist, believes in creationist theory that holds that all life on Earth was created by God about 6,000 years ago [IOW, lacking credible evidence Carson has EVER espoused this, this is merely guilt by association the comPost is attempting to use to discredit the good doctor...]. It rejects Darwin’s theory of evolution, which is the central principle that animates modern biology, uniting all biological fields under one theoretical tent, and which virtually all modern scientists agree is true.

The letter’s authors are not seeking to have Carson disinvited. Instead, they say it was written to raise concerns about his anti-scientific views.

Carson has given dozens of commencement speeches and received some 50 honorary degreesm but this is apparently the first time that his views on evolution have become an issue at a graduation.

Carson is world renowned for his work with children, becoming in 1987 the first surgeon to successfully separate siamese twins conjoined at the back of the head. In 2000 he was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the highest civilian award in the United States.BU_blog.html

As you are proving in this discourse, the claims are easier made than proven.

I'm done....

[QGator2414]

Originally Posted by HALLGATOR

Off topic, but congratulations and hope everything goes OK.

Thanks. Have a date tonight with my four year old at the Father/Daughter Dance for Ambleside assuming her little brother does not interrupt...

[QGator2414]

Originally Posted by Gatormb

Get a Droid. Oh wait. Love[list=1]
Love ya Dave.

Actually upgraded to the 20th century yesterday with a Samsung Galaxy...

[Row6]

Originally Posted by DaveFla

I actually agree with this. It was the wrong venue to criticize Obama even though he wholly deserved this criticism, and MORE.

Of course, you also agree that the State of the Union address was the wrong venue for Obama to criticize the SCOTUS, right?

I appreciate your fair minded approach to this event, but no, the proper subject of SOTU speech are political issues of the day, and saying he disagreed with a SC decision is not an insult.

[DaveFla]

Originally Posted by Row6

I appreciate your fair minded approach to this event, but no, the proper subject of SOTU speech are political issues of the day, and saying he disagreed with a SC decision is not an insult.

Nor was Dr. Carson's criticizing Obama for the tremendous debt he has run up, but the venue, like the SOTU, was wrong.

I figured your hypocrisy would not allow you to be consistent here. That's ok, just as long as you can see it as well.

[lacuna]

I could find online no evidence Dr Carson directly said he believes in a young earth. But the fact is he is a Seventh Day Adventist so it logically follows he affirms the SDA doctrines. Looking at statement of beliefs on the church's website this is what I found:

Affirmations

As a result of the two international conferences and the seven division conferences, the Organizing Committee reports the following affirmations:

We affirm the primacy of Scripture in the Seventh-day Adventist understanding of origins.

We affirm the historic Seventh-day Adventist understanding of Genesis 1 that life on earth was created in six literal days and is of recent origin.

We affirm the biblical account of the Fall resulting in death and evil.

We affirm the biblical account of a catastrophic Flood, an act of God's judgment that affected the whole planet, as an important key to understanding earth history.

We affirm that our limited understanding of origins calls for humility and that further exploration into these questions brings us closer to deep and wonderful mysteries.

We affirm the interlocking nature of the doctrine of creation with other Seventh-day Adventist doctrines.

We affirm that in spite of its fallenness nature is a witness to the Creator.

We affirm Seventh-day Adventist scientists in their endeavors to understand the Creator's handiwork through the methodologies of their disciplines.

We affirm Seventh-day Adventist theologians in their efforts to explore and articulate the content of revelation.

We affirm Seventh-day Adventist educators in their pivotal ministry to the children and youth of the church.

We affirm that the mission of the Seventh-day Adventist Church identified in Revelation 14:6, 7 includes a call to worship God as Creator of all.

http://adventist.org/beliefs/stateme...in-stat54.html

[rivergator]

Lacuna, Dave seems quite upset that I said "apparently Carson believes" one of the basic tenets of his church.

[DaveFla]

You could, of course, make that assumption, but again, one could also make the assumption that all Muslims at terrorists because their Q'uran calls for Muslims to kill all infidels, but this was yet another argument river argued against.

So we agree. The attempt to paint Dr. Carson as one who believes the Earth is only 6,000 years old is, indeed, a false assumption.

Thank you.

[wygator]

Of course, it is OK to say his church believes this. However, it is not OK to ASSUME he agrees with every doctrine of his chosen church.

Analogy...if you are a Democrat or Republican, do you always agree with every item on the party platform, or with every belief of your chosen candidate? Of course not.

I think we need to approach it in this fashion absent direct quotes on the issue from Dr. Carson himself.

[oaklandroadie]

Originally Posted by Row6

Too bad he has no manners and is apparently absorbed in his own sense of self importance.

The event was a "non partisan" prayer breakfast, not a spot for back benchers to promote their political ideas. The president followed with his remarks which ignored this fool and spoke in non partisan terms about working together despite differences in the name of faith and brotherhood.

Ohh, if we could only access the way back machine to see how Row felt about Colbert going after Bush at the correspondent's dinner!

[MichiGator2002]

Originally Posted by mocgator

BS. The Marxist was called out by a far smarter man and the Marxist didn't like it. How dare someone have a thought that isn't in line with the Marxist's talking points. Our President is a child.

Hmm... in the past I have compared Obama to guys like the Duvaliers, or to Joaquin Phoenix's Commodus. Never occured to me to go with Queen Isabella II of Spain, but maybe you are on to something.

[mocgator]

Dissent is patriotic if you're a white millionaire cable TV comedian, not if you're a black neurosurgeon.

[gatorman_07732]

Originally Posted by mocgator

Dissent is patriotic if you're a white millionaire cable TV comedian, not if you're a black neurosurgeon.

I break down to simply dissent is not allowed if you don't think like them. Once you do then they try to make you out to be stupid. You know, the whole "Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it thing".

[108]

conservatives always seem to give more credence to a black man who speaks more towards their views in the age of Obama...as if their opinion holds more weight

there are a number of them who are making a very good living taking advantage of this shallow respect

about the speech, he is obviously thoughtful and educated, and no-doubt PC can go too far, but being anti-PC isn't an excuse to be offensive. One can make a point without being offensive, even if it offends because of its truth. Conservatives seem to think it means you should be able to say whatever you want, in whatever manner you want, without people disagreeing or opposing it.

in the free market place of ideas, there are opinions and opposing opinions...free speech goes both ways

trying to censor disagreement to speech is no different than those trying to censor speech itself