Niners CB: "Openly GAY Players Would Not Be Welcomed On The Team"

[ArtVandelay]

Originally Posted by WESGATORS

People who kill themselves do so not because there is a problem with society but because there is a problem with themselves. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to help them, but let's not blame external forces when the culprit is clearly internal. It's irrational to try to change a society to "be nice" when the solution lies in helping the individual better deal with stress.

Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS

How do you know this? Have you spoke with many people that have committed suicide because they couldn't live with being gay?

I think you are being a little naive if you don't think that society contributes to their internal struggles/demons.

[gatorman_07732]

Originally Posted by ArtVandelay

Are you able to tell whether or not someone is gay just by looking at them?

Your post was just beyond bizarre and highly assumptive

[JohnC1908]

Originally Posted by ArtVandelay

Are you able to tell whether or not someone is gay just by looking at them?

So as long as you don't know it's alright? If I spy on a woman taking a shower no big deal if she doesn't see me?

[WESGATORS]

Originally Posted by ArtVandelay

How do you know this? Have you spoke with many people that have committed suicide because they couldn't live with being gay?

I think you are being a little naive if you don't think that society contributes to their internal struggles/demons.

Well, whenever there's a conflict there are two sides to the conflict. There's the stimulus and there's the response. An individual cannot control the stimulus, but an individual can control the response. That said, sometimes a deficiency in logical thought process limits one's ability to respond in a healthy manner (for example, sometimes our emotions get the best of us and we do things that we would not otherwise choose to do if we could properly plan out a response). The idea of someone killing themselves as a result of name-calling or any sort of verbal bullying reveals a deficiency in the response (regardless of whether or not the stimulus was appropriate, nice, ethical, or what have you).

You could come across an individual that if you say "hi" to them the wrong way they will start hitting themselves in the head. That's not your fault for saying "hi" to them even though that is the stimulus for their response. The fault lies with their ability (or lack thereof) to handle a reasonable response.

If I go and drink too much because your post offended me, that's not your fault for posting what you did, it's my fault for being unable to handle what you posted.

Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS

[ArtVandelay]

Originally Posted by gatorman_07732

Your post was just beyond bizarre and highly assumptive

I'm simply saying that if he has showered with other men before, there is a good chance that he has done so with someone that is gay...

Originally Posted by JohnC1908

So as long as you don't know it's alright? If I spy on a woman taking a shower no big deal if she doesn't see me?

No idea what you are talking about. I was responding to someone that said they wouldn't take a shower with someone that was gay.

[Lawdog88]

Originally Posted by ArtVandelay

Are you able to tell whether or not someone is gay just by looking at them?

Well, in cases where they act like it in the shower by checking out my junk, I can be pretty confident.

But if they are more coy, like maybe sneaking a peak while pretending not to, I would have to wait until they put on their pink earrings to be certain.

[JohnC1908]

Originally Posted by ArtVandelay

No idea what you are talking about. I was responding to someone that said they wouldn't take a shower with someone that was gay.

And you were hinting that they may have and didn't know about it...why?

[JohnC1908]

Personally, I have no problem being around homosexuals, attending their weddings, or being in the same dressing room as them. However, some do. Everyone is not the same.
Also the whole being offended deal I find fake. People just throw that word out like candy. It has become synonymous with not agreeing with liberal viewpoints.

[northgagator]

Originally Posted by gatorman_07732

How would you even know that? Are you crazy?

Questions:
1, Did you shower in GYM class in your public/private school years?
2, Are you sure that none of the guys in the showers were gay?
3, Have you showered our sat in the spa at health clubs?
4, Are you sure that none of the guys that were in the shower or the tub were gay?
5, Are you afraid that you look so hot that a gay man can not keep has hands off of you when he saw your naked form? In other words do you think you are a man magnet?
6, Are you afraid if hit on that you could not say no?
7, Who are the insecure ones on this thread?

A thought to ponder or worry about.
If in your life time you have showered or hot tubed with over a thousand different men while in a unclothed or partially unclothed condition chances are that you were in very close proximity with 30 to 150 gay men.

Question: How many times were you hit on?
Answer: Judging from your responses I am assuming that the answer is zero.
Question: Do you feel left out or slighted? If so have you ever wondered why?

The reason why I played this little game with you was to show you that for the most part gay men are considerate and they do not want to cause any trouble.
The exception to this rule is when you are in area that has a high concentration of gay people (San Francisco, Midtown Atlanta, Greenwich Village New York, Castro San Francisco, Boys Town Chicago). If you go to a health club in these areas then you can expect to see the gay men acting more overtly. How they will treat or react to you will be based on your actions.

Note:
The surevys on who is gay or bi range from 3% to as high as 15%.
There are many legit reasons on range of percentages.
Sampling methods are or may not be reliable due to methods and location of the survey.
The validity of the answers ar or may be skewed because of fear of being outed or for other reasons.

[northgagator]

Originally Posted by WESGATORS

People who kill themselves do so not because there is a problem with society but because there is a problem with themselves. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to help them, but let's not blame external forces when the culprit is clearly internal. It's irrational to try to change a society to "be nice" when the solution lies in helping the individual better deal with stress.

Wes, please read this post again and then read my response.
After doing so please tell me if you really believe in what you posted.

Question: Have you ever had any psychology or sit in on a therapy session?

Many people (especially adolescents) that suffer from depression are prone to sucicide.
Have you ever wondered why they are depressed and get to the point of sucicide?

Some adolescents when faced with issues of being a loner or an outcast become clinically depressed.

Researchers have found that suicide among lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender (LGBT) youth is comparatively higher than among the general population. LGBT teens and young adults have one of the highest rates of suicide attempts.[1] According to some groups, this is linked to heterocentric cultures and institutionalised homophobia in some cases, including the use of LGBT people as a political wedge issue like in the contemporary efforts to halt legalising same-sex marriages.[2] Depression and drug use among LGBT people have both been shown to increase significantly after new laws that discriminate against gay people are passed.[3] Bullying of LGBT youth has been shown to be a contributing factor in many suicides, even if not all of the attacks have been specifically addressing sexuality or gender.

Clinical social worker Caitlin Ryan's Family Acceptance Project (California State University, San Francisco) conducted the first study of the effect of family acceptance and rejection on the health, mental health and well-being of LGBT youth, including suicide, HIV/AIDS and homelessness.[4] Their research shows that LGBT youths "who experience high levels of rejection from their families during adolescence (when compared with those young people who experienced little or no rejection from parents and caregivers) were more than eight times likely to have attempted suicide, more than six times likely to report high levels of depression, more than three times likely to use illegal drugs and more than three times likely to be at high risk for HIV or other STDs" by the time they reach their early 20s.[4]

Numerous studies have shown that lesbian, gay, and bisexual youth have a higher rate of suicide attempts than do heterosexual youth. The Suicide Prevention Resource Center synthesized these studies and estimated that between 30 and 40% of LGBT youth, depending on age and sex groups, have attempted suicide.[5] A U.S. government study, titled Report of the Secretary's Task Force on Youth Suicide, published in 1989, found that LGBT youth are four times more likely to attempt suicide than other young people.[6] This higher prevalence of suicidal ideation and overall mental health problems among gay teenagers compared to their heterosexual peers has been attributed to Minority Stress.[7][8] "More than 34,000 people die by suicide each year," making it "the third leading cause of death among 15 to 24 year olds with lesbian, gay, and bisexual youth attempting suicide up to four times more than their heterosexual peers."[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_among_LGBT_youth

Question: Who damaged their self esteem?
In a lot of case their self esteem was damaged by external forces (parents, siblings, school mates).

Question: How did these external forces damaged the self esteem of these troubled adolencents?
Peer pressure, taunting, teasing, bullying, rejecting, shunning, beatdowns.

Question: Why did these external forces do this?
Because their victims were percieved as weak, different, undesirable, unworthy, abnormal, unclean, evil, sinful, not a child of God.

Question: Do you expect an adolescent who is struggling with drugs, sexuality, academics or whatever to be strong enough to stand up to the rejection they experience from their family and peers?

Questions:
Do you know that these struggles result in prolong mental stress?
Do you know how mental stress impacts your brain chemistry?

Stress is meant to be a short term response but when it goes on for days, weeks, and months it can start to break down your brain and body. Think of it like a spare tire in your car. Most spare tires are meant to get you just a few miles down the road until you can get a new tire and a proper tire change. Living with chronic stress is like driving around on four spare tires for years at a time.....In addition, cortisol can increase your risk for depression. Cortisol in excess can overcome the feel good hormones in the brain and prevent you from being able to become happy naturally. Serotonin and other feel good hormones are reduced in the brain after long term stress. It's clear that in order to preserve your brain function, you need to take steps to reduce stress.

http://stress.lovetoknow.com/How_Doe...fect_the_Brain

Question: Do you know what is the result of being under long term mental stress?

The biopsychosocial model states that the causes of clinical depression is based on biological, psychological and social causes, while the diathesis-stress model states that people with clinical depression have a pre-existing vulnerability, either genetic or schematic, that has been triggered by a stressful life event. In general, however, experts cite psychological, biological and environmental factors as all being possible causes of clinical depression, and that brain chemistry and genetics appear to be components.

http://www.ehow.com/about_5095185_de...epression.html

Question: Do you know what the effects are of depression if untreated?

People who are depressed cannot simply “pull themselves together” and be cured. Without proper treatment, including antidepressants and/or psychotherapy, untreated clinical depression can last for weeks, months, or years. Appropriate treatment, however, can help most people with depression

http://www.webmd.com/depression/guid...ession-effects

Question:Do you know the relationship is between clinical depression and sucicide?

Clinical depression cannot be left ignored. The condition affects many people and it is important to address. According to www.suicide.org, "untreated depression is the number one cause for suicide." Depression left untreated can lead to deadly consequences. Clinical depression requires immediate treatment. If you or a loved one has concerns about depression, seek assistance of a heath care professional.

http://www.examiner.com/article/depression-is-real

Note: I bet you are going to say that a gay teenager commiting sucicide is a tragic thing but that and adult gay should be handle the stress. I am call BS on that statement before you say it. Many gay adults knew they were gay as teenagers and many of them carried the stress and the clinical depressing that comes with it into adulthood.

Last Question:
Has it ever occured to you change in a society to "be nice" is a solution in helping the individual better deal with stress?

[gatorman_07732]

Originally Posted by northgagator

Questions:
1, Did you shower in GYM class in your public/private school years?
2, Are you sure that none of the guys in the showers were gay?
3, Have you showered our sat in the spa at health clubs?
4, Are you sure that none of the guys that were in the shower or the tub were gay?
5, Are you afraid that you look so hot that a gay man can not keep has hands off of you when he saw your naked form? In other words do you think you are a man magnet?
6, Are you afraid if hit on that you could not say no?
7, Who are the insecure ones on this thread?

A thought to ponder or worry about.
If in your life time you have showered or hot tubed with over a thousand different men while in a unclothed or partially unclothed condition chances are that you were in very close proximity with 30 to 150 gay men.

Question: How many times were you hit on?
Answer: Judging from your responses I am assuming that the answer is zero.
Question: Do you feel left out or slighted? If so have you ever wondered why?

The reason why I played this little game with you was to show you that for the most part gay men are considerate and they do not want to cause any trouble.
The exception to this rule is when you are in area that has a high concentration of gay people (San Francisco, Midtown Atlanta, Greenwich Village New York, Castro San Francisco, Boys Town Chicago). If you go to a health club in these areas then you can expect to see the gay men acting more overtly. How they will treat or react to you will be based on your actions.

Note:
The surevys on who is gay or bi range from 3% to as high as 15%.
There are many legit reasons on range of percentages.
Sampling methods are or may not be reliable due to methods and location of the survey.
The validity of the answers ar or may be skewed because of fear of being outed or for other reasons.

#1 is no so that implodes your argument

[northgagator]

Originally Posted by gatorman_07732

#1 is no so that implodes your argument

LOL

[WESGATORS]

Originally Posted by northgagator

Wes, please read this post again and then read my response.
After doing so please tell me if you really believe in what you posted.

North, I will do my best to respond to all your points/questions, but I do have to work on Monday.

First, let me say that I thought about adding qualifications and clarifications to my comment, but yes, I do believe that external forces are a necessary part of shaping who we become. I do believe that a strong family and local community are important in helping a child understand how to deal with these external forces. So my answers will necessarily be different for bullying as it pertains to children vs. bullying as it pertains to adults. And of course, the children who never properly learned to cope will eventually become adults that don't know how to cope.

Make the individual strong, and he/she will be able to handle any adversity (ANY adversity). Then it won't matter what the bullies say or do. That, I believe, should *always* be the first and foremost focus.

Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS

[WESGATORS]

Originally Posted by northgagator

Question: Have you ever had any psychology or sit in on a therapy session?

Yes

Originally Posted by northgagator

Many people (especially adolescents) that suffer from depression are prone to sucicide.
Have you ever wondered why they are depressed and get to the point of sucicide?

I believe that depression is a disease, a corruption of the mind, an illness that prevents the mind from acting rationally. I absolutely wonder why people would choose to end life rather than fix the problem; or more accurately, why potential fixes aren't as easily perceived by those who are depressed as those who are not depressed. The problem is with the depressed, not with society.

I think the notion of a teenager determining that they are irreparably homosexual is certainly a potential cause for depression. Others may not consider that but would instead only look at the reactions to such a determination. I think the determination itself should be more properly assessed. But that is oddly becoming more and more taboo in some circles of our society.

Originally Posted by northgagator

Question: Who damaged their self esteem?
In a lot of case their self esteem was damaged by external forces (parents, siblings, school mates).

Agree, this goes back to my previous post where I was expressing my intent to establish a difference between how an external force impacts a child vs. how an external force impacts an adult. There will *always* be a case where the children never properly learn how to deal with these external forces even as adults. Sometimes it comes in the form of depression (not that all cases of depression fit this bill), and sometimes it comes in the form of crime or even other forms of abuse that are not detected as crime. In none of those cases is it truly proper to blame the last external force as a cause to the problem when the problem truly occurred throughout development. So if someone decides to kill themselves, the "last straw" is hardly what lead to the death, there was likely a lifetime or even a lengthy series of events or development that led to developing the irrational mindset.

Originally Posted by northgagator

Question: How did these external forces damaged the self esteem of these troubled adolencents?
Peer pressure, taunting, teasing, bullying, rejecting, shunning, beatdowns.

You're pointing to a flaw in the development of a child, that's on the parents and the local community. Overcoming peer pressure, taunting, teasing, bullying, rejection, shunning, and beatdowns also make people better. It's the support structure that the child has that makes the difference. That is where the focus should be. We need more parents and families empowering their children rather than helping them to become victims. How many times when a child has low self-esteem can we point to serious flaws in the relationship of the parents with one another and/or with them and their children?

Originally Posted by northgagator

Question: Why did these external forces do this?
Because their victims were percieved as weak, different, undesirable, unworthy, abnormal, unclean, evil, sinful, not a child of God.

When was the last time you went to church? Maybe you should try a different church. I wish I would have gone more as a youth (and/or paid attention more); there's a lot of value in being able to build self-esteem when paying attention to what the Bible offers. I'm not saying that is the only way to build confidence, but if a parent doesn't know what else to do, they should try to get more involved in a local church (or at a minimum other activities that involve children participating in uplifting activities with other children).

Originally Posted by northgagator

Question: Do you expect an adolescent who is struggling with drugs, sexuality, academics or whatever to be strong enough to stand up to the rejection they experience from their family and peers?

Again, this goes back to the development of a child; flaws in the development of a child fall on the parents, BUT it should be noted that flaws can also be overcome (kind of the paradox of parenting); we try to avoid challenging situations (or what we think may be too challenging of situations) but the more challenging of a situation our children overcome, the better off they are.

Originally Posted by northgagator

Questions:
Do you know that these struggles result in prolong mental stress?
Do you know how mental stress impacts your brain chemistry?

Question: Do you know what is the result of being under long term mental stress?

Question: Do you know what the effects are of depression if untreated?

Question: Do you know what the effects are of depression if untreated?

Question:Do you know the relationship is between clinical depression and sucicide?

Yes, it is very important to learn how to handle/manage stress! Let's not teach our children that this is an impossible task. Let's not teach our children that a football player from across the country (or even across the city) should have the ability to impact our self-esteem.

Originally Posted by northgagator

Note: I bet you are going to say that a gay teenager commiting sucicide is a tragic thing but that and adult gay should be handle the stress. I am call BS on that statement before you say it. Many gay adults knew they were gay as teenagers and many of them carried the stress and the clinical depressing that comes with it into adulthood.

One's self assessment should not be based on the opinions of others. Look at Seminole fans, they go right on doing their thing despite the fact that they are an easy target. For that I sort of respect them. Whatever you choose to be; whatever you identify yourself as, be proud of who you are otherwise what's the point? You probably know my thoughts on homosexuality, but if you are a homosexual, why would you care other than for the philosophical aspect of my view? I think society in general should be better equipped to not be so sensitive about how others perceive them.

You say many of them "knew they were gay as teenagers" but isn't it possible that corrupt external forces led to an illogical conclusion? That illogical conclusion led to conflict which led to depression? (I'm not saying it happens that way with everybody, but so many seem to like to discount this possibility in today's world)

Originally Posted by northgagator

Last Question:
(size reduced ) Has it ever occured to you change in a society to "be nice" is a solution in helping the individual better deal with stress?[/size]

My wife is a kindergarten teacher, and she reminds me all the time of the "be nice" aspects of life, and there are many times when I appreciate her perspective, but I also think that a does of "toughen up" needs to be dished out from time to time too. So the *haters* can work on being nice, but my point all along is that regardless of whether they do that or not, we as individuals (who don't have any control over that - the external hate) can always work on toughening up for our own mental health.

I appreciate the discussion, and I hope nothing I've said comes across as offensive. Let me know if you disagree with anything I've said or if you think some (or all) of it doesn't make sense.

Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS

[CockyInSeattle]

I'm apprehensive about weighing in on this thread, but I feel I need to. My wife was deserted by her biological mother (divorced and antagonistic to my father-in-law) when she was very young, and two lesbians took her in and raised her. She didn't turn out gay, and she's a loving incredible mother of three kids, and the most loving and wonderful woman I have ever met. "Aunt Nancy" and "Aunt Jeanne" were supportive of our marriage and children. It was sad when Nancy was denied the right to visit her partner of thirty years when Jeanne was dying in the hospital, because they weren't legally a couple, even though they had devoted thirty years of their life together and even owned a house together.

For your religious beliefs, you should never be persecuted by the government, but your religious beliefs end at the tip of your nose, and you should never have the right to deny rights to another individual because of your beliefs.

I have two amazing friends, with three amazing kids, where the husband is white and the wife is black. Their marriage in SC was illegal until sometime in the 1980's. Interracial marriage was once illegal because of religious views.

To me, somewhere our society has lost the value of 'live, and let live.' Why is it so important to force another person to live by your values? I value love and compassion as the supreme of human development. Everyone I have talked to who is gay believes they were born that way, it wasn't a choice. Scientific evidence supports this. I will love and support my kids regardless of their sexual orientation.

[Dreamliner]

If you've ever had any psychology ... you're probably pretty messed-up.

[northgagator]

Wes, Thanks for the time, effort, sincerity, and civility that you used in respond to my post. I don't agree with some of your answers and I will respond in a similar manner as you did to me. It sure beats getting into a pissing contest.

Originally Posted by WESGATORS

I believe that depression is a disease, a corruption of the mind, an illness that prevents the mind from acting rationally. I absolutely wonder why people would choose to end life rather than fix the problem; or more accurately, why potential fixes aren't as easily perceived by those who are depressed as those who are not depressed. The problem is with the depressed, not with society.

I am glad that you recognize the severity of depression. As for your question why people choose suicide you need to read up on how prior stress and the length of depression alters the brain chemistry and brain functions. The results of these alterations makes it physically impossible for the brain to executes the functions that makes us feel happy and be pain free. It also limits logical thought and overrides our instinctive survival skills. In many cases the depressed victim is either on autopilot or in a confused state of mind where self destruction is a logical and viable option. With proper treatment (therapy/medication) coping skills are developed and brain chemistry is put back in balance. With prayer and and a good treatment plan the patient has a good chance to avoid self destruction.

Originally Posted by WESGATORS

. In none of those cases is it truly proper to blame the last external force as a cause to the problem when the problem truly occurred throughout development. So if someone decides to kill themselves, the "last straw" is hardly what lead to the death, there was likely a lifetime or even a lengthy series of events or development that led to developing the irrational mindset.

Clarification is needed on this statement. This scenario is an example of clinical depression goes untreated or has ineffective treatment. Sooner or later the deterioration leads to the pain and hopelessness overriding the coping and survival skills.

Originally Posted by WESGATORS

You're pointing to a flaw in the development of a child, that's on the parents and the local community. Overcoming peer pressure, taunting, teasing, bullying, rejection, shunning, and beatdowns also make people better. It's the support structure that the child has that makes the difference. That is where the focus should be.

The support structure does make a difference but you make sound to easy. Not every child has parents who are adequately skilled to override the external actions that we both listed. Also the issue impacting the victim and the accompanying external actions can overmatch the most effective parenting. This is one reasons why the schools and youth organizations have implemented anti bullying campaigns.

Originally Posted by WESGATORS

We need more parents and families empowering their children rather than helping them to become victims. How many times when a child has low self-esteem can we point to serious flaws in the relationship of the parents with one another and/or with them and their children?

Please refer to my most prior statement.

Originally Posted by WESGATORS

When was the last time you went to church? Maybe you should try a different church. I wish I would have gone more as a youth (and/or paid attention more); there's a lot of value in being able to build self-esteem when paying attention to what the Bible offers.

I am not a regular church goer. As a student I went to Mass six times a week. Now I spend 30 to 60 minutes throughout the day every day in prayer. I frequently read my bible. I have studied a lot of Middle East history. I read/listen/view to various ministers. One of my major influences was the readin/study of Agape Love.

Originally Posted by WESGATORS

I'm not saying that is the only way to build confidence, but if a parent doesn't know what else to do, they should try to get more involved in a local church (or at a minimum other activities that involve children participating in uplifting activities with other children).

No argument from me here.

Originally Posted by WESGATORS

Again, this goes back to the development of a child; flaws in the development of a child fall on the parents, BUT it should be noted that flaws can also be overcome (kind of the paradox of parenting); we try to avoid challenging situations (or what we think may be too challenging of situations) but the more challenging of a situation our children overcome, the better off they are.

I agree up to a point. The exception is that there are some challenging situations that a lot of people (child/parent) are not equipped to handle

Originally Posted by WESGATORS

Yes, it is very important to learn how to handle/manage stress! Let's not teach our children that this is an impossible task. Let's not teach our children that a football player from across the country (or even across the city) should have the ability to impact our self-esteem.

Agree, however not all damages to self esteem come from people. Some of those damages come from physical ailments, disabilities, and disfigurements. Theses forces are very difficult to overcome or to fend off.

Originally Posted by WESGATORS

You probably know my thoughts on homosexuality, but if you are a homosexual, why would you care other than for the philosophical aspect of my view? I think society in general should be better equipped to not be so sensitive about how others perceive them.

.
I am straight, married, and a father.
I agree with your statement on perception just as long that perception does not cross over the line to hate, discrimination, harassment, bullying, and beat downs.

Originally Posted by WESGATORS

You say many of them "knew they were gay as teenagers" but isn't it possible that corrupt external forces led to an illogical conclusion? That illogical conclusion led to conflict which led to depression? (I'm not saying it happens that way with everybody, but so many seem to like to discount this possibility in today's world)

Most gay people do not choose to be gay. The choose to accept being gay when the realize that they are. There are several studies that shows sexuality is impacted/influenced by the hormones the fetus is exposed to prior to birth.

Originally Posted by WESGATORS

My wife is a kindergarten teacher, and she reminds me all the time of the "be nice" aspects of life, and there are many times when I appreciate her perspective, but I also think that a does of "toughen up" needs to be dished out from time to time too. So the *haters* can work on being nice, but my point all along is that regardless of whether they do that or not, we as individuals (who don't have any control over that - the external hate) can always work on toughening up for our own mental health.

You can only toughen up for what you are capable to handle. Also, no matter how tough you are you are no match for a lot of situations if you are already in a state of depression such a a death of a loved one, chronic pain, and a chemical imbalance.

Originally Posted by WESGATORS

I appreciate the discussion, and I hope nothing I've said comes across as offensive. Let me know if you disagree with anything I've said or if you think some (or all) of it doesn't make sense.

Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS

We are good.

Just remember I am not asking you to accept my views on sexuality.
All that I suggest that you remember the old bible verse: Hate the sin but love the sinner.

[JohnC1908]

Originally Posted by CockyInSeattle

I'm apprehensive about weighing in on this thread, but I feel I need to. My wife was deserted by her biological mother (divorced and antagonistic to my father-in-law) when she was very young, and two lesbians took her in and raised her. She didn't turn out gay, and she's a loving incredible mother of three kids, and the most loving and wonderful woman I have ever met. "Aunt Nancy" and "Aunt Jeanne" were supportive of our marriage and children. It was sad when Nancy was denied the right to visit her partner of thirty years when Jeanne was dying in the hospital, because they weren't legally a couple, even though they had devoted thirty years of their life together and even owned a house together.

For your religious beliefs, you should never be persecuted by the government, but your religious beliefs end at the tip of your nose, and you should never have the right to deny rights to another individual because of your beliefs.

I have two amazing friends, with three amazing kids, where the husband is white and the wife is black. Their marriage in SC was illegal until sometime in the 1980's. Interracial marriage was once illegal because of religious views.

To me, somewhere our society has lost the value of 'live, and let live.' Why is it so important to force another person to live by your values? I value love and compassion as the supreme of human development. Everyone I have talked to who is gay believes they were born that way, it wasn't a choice. Scientific evidence supports this. I will love and support my kids regardless of their sexual orientation.

I agree with all of this, great post.

[WESGATORS]

Originally Posted by northgagator

You can only toughen up for what you are capable to handle. Also, no matter how tough you are you are no match for a lot of situations if you are already in a state of depression such a a death of a loved one, chronic pain, and a chemical imbalance.

Philippians 4:13

I Corinthians 10:13 (sometimes "test" is more appropriate than "tempt" depending on the situation)

And for the non-Christian who might be reading this, there's always Christopher Robin :

"You're braver than you believe, stronger than you seem, and smarter than you think."

More later, but I caught your response too late.

Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS

[WESGATORS]

I'll sneak one more in for the night...

Originally Posted by northgagator

Most gay people do not choose to be gay. The choose to accept being gay when the realize that they are. There are several studies that shows sexuality is impacted/influenced by the hormones the fetus is exposed to prior to birth.

I believe sexuality is a much slower developing process than what most make of it. You won't find many 3 or 4 year old boys that would state a preference for girls over boys. Either way, I've never thought of the underlying desires as a choice as much as they are a development (much more influenced by environment than by genetics). But the more "born with it you are" the easier it would be to modify with technological advances...for those who wish to modify it, of course. Some would say "why does it need to be modified?" Yet we live in a society where it's acceptable to mutilate, pierce, stuff, and stain various parts of your body...surely being able to modify or perhaps solidify one's sexual behavior would be another welcome modification.

Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS