Why is Florida better without Bradley Beal and Erving Walker?

[madgator]

Originally Posted by alietigator

I cant believe I just read that. You have been taking stats and turning them to your point for the past 3 years but avoiding the obvious stats..
First I never said tyus didn't play well. You say Parsons was Ok because he was 3-8. 2 of those made feild goals were lay ups and he missed his only 3 and was 1-2 from free throw. He played way under par. Maklin couldnt make a free throw and was in foul trouble the whole game. Thats why he never hit his potential because BD didn't trust him at the end of games due to free throws. Young actually played well that game because of macklins foul problems. Boynton only had 1 turnover but was 3-9 and his misses were momentum killers, not walker's.

Now for walkers stats. So walker had an average game for his standards??? WOW. He was 5-8 FG, 3-5 on 3s, 8-10 for free throws and 1 turnover. I guess his 3 misses were real momentum killers. This is why you are a joke when it comes to walker. he played one of the best games of anyone in the tournament, but it was just average because we should have won by 15, and thats all walkers fault.

There is no was wilbiken in 2011 could have helped if he got more minutes. He could barely dribble the ball up the court. Defense was always great, but the offense was terrible when he ran it that year.

Walker had so many faults and crappy games, but you will never say he did anything above average.

100% not true. I give/gave Walker plenty of compliments on his strengths. yes, I do rail on the kid a bunch. so if you take that into consideration, for me to say he was "zero sum" means that he obviously did something I appreciated and he did it well.

the UCLA game for me was a lot like the UGA game in athens that year and a common theme throughout his days at PG. His stats look good. He did a lot of exciting things that jump out in peoples memories (the bouncing off the fat guy, the steal on the inbounds pass etc). But his actual play as a PG was sub-par and was detrimental to the team despite the win and his personal stats.

I just never liked watching the way the kid managed a game as a PG. I'm just looking for something different out of my PG in the way he approaches the game.

I'm not trying to use stats in my favor. Just pointing out that Boynton had only 1 turnover (you said he was a turnover machine that game) and that Parsons was off (and he was only 1 made FG from 50% for the day).

Much of what I say about Walker is difficult to quantify or prove because they are not statistically verifiable. How do you statistically measure a zig when you should have zagged? Situational mistakes that do not translate into stats. Not utilizing team mates.

much of what I'm talking about is subtle points of the game. there are players out there that are statistical monsters that I wouldn't want anywhere near my team (and I'm not even talking about locker room cancers).

So I guess that my expectations of how the game should be played is just as important as the end results. maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong. I'm a sucker for the fundamentals and sound basketball theory and execution.

[Jonas]

Originally Posted by gatordd

without Brad no without Erv yes... he is/was and always will be a liability on D.

Can you or someone else define what a defensive liability is?

[ArtVandelay]

We are better because certain players are playing a bigger role and have improved tremendously...

not

because we don't have Beal or Walker...

[cmarcum]

I don't think were better..I just didn't like the way the team was used last year...thot scottie startin and erv coming off the bench ala vinnie johnson from the pistons would have made us a much better team...would have improved our bench scoring when kb and brad had to rest...and our defensse would have been much better with scottie on the floor...erv got abused by opposing teams simply bcuz of his size...but his ability to shoot and make free throws and break the press was critical in us closing out games

[rserina]

Originally Posted by cmarcum

I don't think were better..I just didn't like the way the team was used last year...thot scottie startin and erv coming off the bench ala vinnie johnson from the pistons would have made us a much better team...would have improved our bench scoring when kb and brad had to rest...and our defensse would have been much better with scottie on the floor...erv got abused by opposing teams simply bcuz of his size...but his ability to shoot and make free throws and break the press was critical in us closing out games

How often have you ever seen a senior three-year starter go to the bench for a sophomore? Never happens. The closest we have ever come is Weeks in 99-00, but that was only because neither he nor Dupay could run the point effectively and the ball stopped too often with them. Even Green didn't supplant Roberson in 04-05 after Walsh returned from injury and we had five guys rotating at the 1-3.

Plus, I don't see how pairing Walker with Rosario off the bench would have made us a better team. Maybe better defensively in the starting lineup, but much worse defensively when the starters went to the bench. A far better rotation would have been playing Wilbekin and Walker together more often, which would have allowed Walker to play off the ball some while Wilbekin covered some of his defensive deficiencies against certain point guards.

One overlooked aspect of our troubles last year is that the league was stacked. Just very, very good. The only ugly loss was to UGA, which can at least be partly attributed to the absence of Yeguete. Even with that, plus all the inexperience and moving parts, we were still underseeded at 7 (probably a 5), and pretty much a shot or two away from the Final Four.

[tommyuf21]

Originally Posted by gatorrick1

Really sad how many people on here just don't get it. All this talk about how we are better offensively because we move the ball better and take better shots and other stuff has little to do with why we are better minus those two guys at this point in the season.

It's all about defense!!!!!! We are one of the top defensive teams in the country. As someone that has coached and tried to teach a team how to defend the multitude of offenses that get thrown out at you I can't stress enough how important it is to have older players. Teaching defending on ball screens takes seasons. Figuring out how to hedge, how long to hedge how to rotate behin the hedge etc takes time. PY, EM, MR are playing better team defense then they ever have before. SW, KB and WY are all strong defenders and all of these guys are upperclassmen. Unless you have an amazing shot blocker like A Davis protecting the rim it's hard to be good defensively without having 5 guys on the floor that get it, understand rotations and box out responsibilities.

We are better for one reason, we play great team defense and our staff has done an amazing job of getting all of our guys to buy in because it only takes one man breaking down to give up easy baskets. Now while I agree that at this point in the season we are better than at this point in the season last year lets wait and see how we play the rest of the year. All great coaches like Billy don't want their teams to peak in January. They want them primed for March and last years team made it to the elite eight and were pretty damned good so let's sit back and see what happens with this group. I am really enjoying the effort, but its a long season.

Very well said. You are only as strong as your weakest link and so far this season, no weak link has emerged.

Everyone has stepped up their game and Frazier has been a great suprise with his accuracy from long range and his ability to rebound. He has taken a Beal-like role from the bench. Scottie has asserted himself and taken his game to another level on the offensive end.

Instead of bashing a guy that some don't like because he was short, let's celebrate the hard work and improvement that our coaches and players have put in to get themselves to this point.

[GatorAvatar]

KY is down, Vandy is down. We retain several experienced players. We reached elite 8 last year. This team is #4 currently,but it hasn't surpassed what last year's team accomplished last year. We should stop making these kind of statements and enjoy what we have this year.

[themistocles]

Originally Posted by rserina

Interesting discussion. The initial article--and in many respects the response--both follow from the wrong premise: it isn't so much the replacements for Beal and/or Walker, but the improvement of the other 6-7 guys in the rotation. Young and Murphy were both new starters last season playing by far their most minutes and they struggled sustaining intensity and adapting their games as the year progressed. This year, each has made massive improvements, whether it is Young's energy level, defensive focus, and improved low post moves or Murphy's pick and roll defense, ability to post up by putting the ball on the ground, or corner three.

The same is true for Yeguete. Donovan said he came in out of shape (some goofy comment about eating too many French pastries) and when he did work himself into shape he got hit by injuries. This year, he came in ripped and much stronger and has added that little dribble drive move from the top of the key as well as the jumper he didn't use at all his first two seasons. When you have two new starters in the post, and their only backup is new to the rotation, you can expect to struggle some unless they are all elite caliber players.

In general, if I had to make an argument it would be one of increased experience and familiarity. The same thing happened in 2010-11. We were a ten seed that was a miracle three against NC State from possibly not making the tournament and we transformed into league championship winning Elite Eight team because each of those kids (three new starters, another at a new position) all learned from their experiences, improved their games, and developed better chemistry. The same thing happened this year to a team that returned seven of its top nine guys from a year ago, six of whom had double digit minutes on the year. The 2010 class may very well go down as the most successful in school history after the 2004 group.

I don't mean to discount the fact that Wilbekin is a significantly better defender than Walker and a more "natural" point guard (whatever that actual means, but I grant it nonetheless), or that the offensive pieces fit together better than they did a year ago when we were heavy on scoring-minded guards. But take away Walker and Beal from last year's team and we don't even make the tournament, let alone improve on their success. Take away one even one of them and we are significantly worse still.

YES!!!

You simply cannot replace EXPERIENCE, I don't care what quality of player you are brining in. Admittedly, last year's Ky team, and Michigan's Fab 5 were both cases that argue against this thesis, however, it is "Almost Always TRUE."

[tommyuf21]

Originally Posted by InstiGATOR1

This is a big question mark for me too. It also is to my why Wilbekin is not scoring in double figures yet. But the bigger worry is will he knock down those FTs in crunch time at a high enough rate.

I don't think there is any legitimate reason that he can't knock down Free Throws at something close to Boynton or Rosario's percentage. I think his problem is that he doesn't get fouled much and get many opportunities. He is driving more, so maybe he goes to the line more over the last month or so of the season and gets some confidence.

Our biggest problem closing out games on the line will be with Patric and Will to a lesser extent.

[gatormann]

Andy Hutchins' article and discussion is excellent.

Regardless of who is right or wrong, I'd rather leave discussions of Walker's shortcomings in the past.

[phideltdj]

The defensive improvement is the obvious piece as there is no denying this team is better defensively than last year. IMO on offense they are better because Erv was really not a quintissential point guard either. He really had a scorer's mentality and was not a high assist point guard so the offense would struggle in stretches. I think this team moves the ball better on offense than last years team. Last years group with Beal, Walker, and Boynton would try to break down defenders and there was more one on one play as oppossed to the consistent passing you see in the games this year. Erv definitely handled the press better so we will see how this develops.

[gatormann]

Originally Posted by phideltdj

... Last years group with Beal, Walker, and Boynton would try to break down defenders and there was more one on one play as oppossed to the consistent passing you see in the games this year...

I'm very excited about this development. Defensively, I think we are playing at or near are peak potential. Offensively, is where the greatest room for growth remains. Lately, the ball movement has been outstanding and the team has played unselfishly.

[madgator]

Originally Posted by tommyuf21

Very well said. You are only as strong as your weakest link and so far this season, no weak link has emerged.

Everyone has stepped up their game and Frazier has been a great suprise with his accuracy from long range and his ability to rebound. He has taken a Beal-like role from the bench. Scottie has asserted himself and taken his game to another level on the offensive end.

Instead of bashing a guy that some don't like because he was short, let's celebrate the hard work and improvement that our coaches and players have put in to get themselves to this point.

why do you always go to this irrelevant point? basically, you are refusing to admit any of the faults that EW had that many on here are pointing out. clearly, I was not alone in my opinions. so we are all anti-short people?

eddie shannon was like 5'9
taurean green was 5'11

I had no issues with either of these guys. in fact, they are two of my favorite gator hoopsters.

your simple conclusion is either completely obtuse or a result of personal complexes and is void of any critical analysis.

adds nothing to the discussion. in fact, all it tries to do is cut it off.

[patsyruth2008]

Originally Posted by GatorLurker

How was Georgia better the year after Dominque Wilkens left? They went to the Final Four being led by Vern Fleming. Now, who is better: Wilkens or Fleming?

Lurker;

One of my best friends started at Small Forward on that final four team, Lamar Heard. They got beat by N.C. State in the semi-finals and then the Wolfpack shocked the world by beating Fly Slama Jama (Houston) in the finals in Albuquerque.

Lamar was Dominque's roommate for all three years he was at Georgia and was a Groomsman at his wedding (cover of Sports Illustrated). Some serious recruiting voliations took place in between their So. and Jr. years................. Long, but really good story....................

[madgator]

Originally Posted by patsyruth2008

Lurker;

One of my best friends started at Small Forward on that final four team, Lamar Heard. They got beat by N.C. State in the semi-finals and then the Wolfpack shocked the world by beating Fly Slama Jama (Houston) in the finals in Albuquerque.

Lamar was Dominque's roommate for all three years he was at Georgia and was a Groomsman at his wedding (cover of Sports Illustrated). Some serious recruiting voliations took place in between their So. and Jr. years................. Long, but really good story....................

oh, I bet!

[ofmgator]

This team buys into Billy's defensive pressure last years did not. Walker consistently drove to the basket and didn't dish to anyone and being 5'11" he often lost the ball.
This teamplays better as a team. The article is right on.

[stingbb]

We will see if this year's team is better because we still have a long way to go.

Remember, last year's team made it to the Elite 8 which is not easy to do. It also played against a much tougher SEC compared to this year so don't get too caught up in the margin of victories of late against, except for Missouri, schools that aren't really any good at all.

Plus, after tonight, the SEC schedule gets tougher. Two games remain against UK and Ole Miss on Saturday will be a challenge. UF also has a road game at Mizzou, who will be at full strength with Bowers back, and UT, which is never an easy place to play for us. Then will come the grind of March and only after that, can we determine who was the better team.

[PSGator66]

I think that this discussion should wait until the season is over.

[corpgator]

You guys know he's 5'8 and not 5'11 right?

[tommyuf21]

Originally Posted by corpgator

You guys know he's 5'8 and not 5'11 right?

That was his listed height, I think he was even shorter than that.