Obesity Is Not Killing Us ...

[ATL_Gator]

MeyerIsBack... I thought you were a guy. Imagine my surprise in reading the "I had a baby" bit!

Originally Posted by MeyerIsBack

Is this their weight when they die? Healthy old people tend to gain a little weight as they age. This could easily put people into the overweight category of BMI at the end of their life. It would be interesting to see their weights when they were in their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, and 60s.

I have this same question, plus some others about the actual study (and my skepticism about it)... I have not found a link to the actual study that isn't a paid link, unfortunately. And it doesn't intrigue me enough to pull out the wallet.

[MeyerIsBack]

Originally Posted by ATL_Gator

MeyerIsBack... I thought you were a guy. Imagine my surprise in reading the "I had a baby" bit!

I am a guy. I said that wrong. My wife had a baby. we both work, so we have shared the baby responsibilities.

[ATL_Gator]

AAHH.. Gotcha.

PHEW. Thought for a second I was going crazy. All is right in my brain again... well, maybe "right" isn't the correct term.

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by ATL_Gator

MeyerIsBack... I thought you were a guy. Imagine my surprise in reading the "I had a baby" bit!



I have this same question, plus some others about the actual study (and my skepticism about it)... I have not found a link to the actual study that isn't a paid link, unfortunately. And it doesn't intrigue me enough to pull out the wallet.

Just google 'jama ovesity' or 'cdc obesity.' They're all over the place.

Or spare yourself the trouble and reckon with the obvious fact that we're getting fatter and fatter and living (actively) longer and longer.

[MeyerIsBack]

I google CDC obesity and found this
http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/adult/causes/index.html
What are the consequences of overweight and obesity?
Health Consequences
Research has shown that as weight increases to reach the levels referred to as "overweight" and "obesity,"* the risks for the following conditions also increases:1
Coronary heart disease
Type 2 diabetes
Cancers (endometrial, breast, and colon)
Hypertension (high blood pressure)
Dyslipidemia (for example, high total cholesterol or high levels of triglycerides)
Stroke
Liver and Gallbladder disease
Sleep apnea and respiratory problems
Osteoarthritis (a degeneration of cartilage and its underlying bone within a joint)
Gynecological problems (abnormal menses, infertility)
*Overweight is defined as a body mass index (BMI) of 25 or higher; obesity is defined as a BMI of 30 or higher. For more, see Defining Obesity.

[MeyerIsBack]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

Or spare yourself the trouble and reckon with the obvious fact that we're getting fatter and fatter and living (actively) longer and longer.

We don't live in a vacuum.

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by MeyerIsBack

I like to eat. So for me to maintain a healthy weight, I either have to monitor my eating or increase my activity. I really do a combination of both. If I had to say I had a 'natural weight', I would say it was the higher weight because that is the weight I ended up at without thinking about it. However, I don't really think there is a natural weight. I think there are bad eating habits and low activity. I think people may gravitate towards certain weights because of their habits but I don't believe that a person is born physiologically predetermined to be obese.



I actually kind of agree with you on this because of its documented failure rate. I believe people SHOULD be able to lose weight and maintain the loss. However, that is obviously not the case. I would hypothesize that it is more of a behavioral and psychological issue than physiological.



There are obviously weird body shapes but obesity (IMHO) is the result of a lifestyle. I have no sympathy for obesity. I have a weird soft spot for generational obesity because it is almost like that is all they ever knew. Almost like generational welfare. I think the saddest part is the constant conflicting information that gives fat people justification for being fat. It is now nearly impossible to argue that a person can lose weight because every fat person claims to have a slow 'metabolism'. Or uses 'starvation mode' as a reason to not eat too 'little'. When in reality the majority of these people are well over daily recommended values because they have no clue what 2,000 calories looks like. That is the saddest part to me.

The other extremely upsetting trend is that people get fat, get depressed (These first two may be reversed, there is a chicken and egg debate), end up on antidepressants, gain more weight, which heightens depression. The newer short life-cycle SSRIs are hard to discontinue so people spend a lifetime on these drugs that make weight loss even harder. I think I read that 11% of people over the age of 12 are on antidepressants. The effectiveness (especially of newer drugs) is also in serious question. Which is another question I have about weight gain. Does weight gain cause medical problems that require medicine that cause more medical problems?

You're propensity to gain weight could well be behavioral and/or emotional. Most people aren't very active. Many if not most are emotional eaters. Add activity, eat when hungry, stop when satisfied, find other outlets for stress and boredom ... and I suspect many will settle into their happy, healthy weight.

BUT, your attitude on obesity needs some adjustment. We KNOW that obesity is genetic. There is no longer any question about this. And I myself had to overcome my inbred predjudices and reexamine the stereotypes about obese people. Ex: obese people I know are manifestly NOT lazy. Nor do they just shovel food down.

You might become more compassionate when you realize that attitudes like I used to harbor, like you still harbor, are likely at the root of why many obese people are actually deeply disenchanted with the way they look and are frequently trying (and failing) to get the weight off. It may also be at the root of why they medicate themselves. And the medications may also cause weight gain.

In point of fact, anti-anxiety meds and antidepressants my be THE primary cause of weight gain across the board. It's not like we've become less active since 1980. We haven't.

[MeyerIsBack]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

BUT, your attitude on obesity needs some adjustment.

Very well

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

We KNOW that obesity is genetic. There is no longer any question about this.

I don't know this. You may.

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

And I myself had to overcome my inbred predjudices and reexamine the stereotypes about obese people. Ex: obese people I know are manifestly NOT lazy. Nor do they just shovel food down.

Are you saying that being overweight is not the result of a caloric surplus. You can call it what you like.

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

You might become more compassionate when you realize that attitudes like I used to harbor, like you still harbor, are likely at the root of why many obese people are actually deeply disenchanted with the way they look and are frequently trying (and failing) to get the weight off. It may also be at the root of why they medicate themselves. And the medications may also cause weight gain.

So you are saying it is my fault people are fat. Good God man. I have no words

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

In point of fact, anti-anxiety meds and antidepressants my be THE primary cause of weight gain across the board. It's not like we've become less active since 1980. We haven't.

It's possible

[Dreamliner]

Yes, I'm saying that prevailing cultural attitudes strongly play into the attitudes of fat people. That is to say that they are acutely aware that you think they look ugly.

Yes, fat people require caloric surpluses to reach their existing weights. And this is something that you ought to be able to identify with. It is a very powerful unconscious drive that cause you to tend towards your heavier weight. And it takes an enormous amount of discipline to maintain the lower weight. Might this pronounced (seemingly unfair) balance constitute evidence that your body knows what it wants to weigh ?

Remember that I experience the reverse problem. It seems natural to be skinny. It seems unnatural to be as little as ten pounds heavier. I feel like I'm having to stuff myself.

Don't forget, in all of this, that we now know that not only is obesity genetic (you seem close to acknowledging this), we also know that obesity is not unhealthy, per se.

[MeyerIsBack]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

That is to say that they are acutely aware that you think they look ugly.

When did I say that I think overweight people look ugly?

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

Yes, fat people require caloric surpluses to reach their existing weights.
And this is something that you ought to be able to identify with.

It is something I can identify with. I can also identify with caloric deficits. As well as a caloric balance.

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

It is a very powerful unconscious drive that cause you to tend towards your heavier weight. And it takes an enormous amount of discipline to maintain the lower weight.

From my experience you are greatly overstating this. It is something a person is willing to do or is not willing to do.

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

Might this pronounced (seemingly unfair) balance constitute evidence that your body knows what it wants to weigh ?

I think it is evidence that we eat more calories and move less.

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

Don't forget, in all of this, that we now know that not only is obesity genetic (you seem close to acknowledging this), we also know that obesity is not unhealthy, per se.

I don't believe either of these things nor am I close to believing them. I actually have a post earlier in this thread from the CDC that lists the problems caused by obesity.

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by MeyerIsBack

When did I say that I think overweight people look ugly?


It is something I can identify with. I can also identify with caloric deficits. As well as a caloric balance.

From my experience you are greatly overstating this. It is something a person is willing to do or is not willing to do.

I think it is evidence that we eat more calories and move less.


I don't believe either of these things nor am I close to believing them. I actually have a post earlier in this thread from the CDC that lists the problems caused by obesity.

You said you "have no sympathy for obesity." You must find it repulsive on some level.

Fat people are typically *willing* to be thin. And they typically try to be thin more often that people like me try to be more muscular. Is it possible that you are *understating* the problem ?

Never mind others. Thinks about you. You don't have to try to stay slightly pudgy. You have to try to stay lean.

Yes, people tend to eat more than they need and possibly move less than should. But again, the body ramps up hunger and literally slows you down to maintain weight. And in fact, when you lose weight, not only does hunger tend to increase but general activity levels decrease. It's all part-and-parcel of survival mechanisms.

[malligator]

Tomorrow (2/1/13) will by the 3 year anniversary of my transformation. On 2/1/10 I was 290 and am now 200 (heading to 180). It is the hardest thing I've ever done in my life and I know that keeping it off will be a major task for the rest of my life. I gain weight ridiculously easily so I have to be ever vigilant to keep it off. With all the peaks and valleys of my body weight over the last three years I've probably lost 200 pounds total to get here.

Dream, I know the numbers aren't in my favor for keeping it off, but I'll work everyday to make sure I'm one of the few that do. I agree with your natural weight belief, though. Sometimes I want to binge so godam bad I can't stand it. All you naturally skinny sumbitches () can believe I have no willpower, but until you've been fat you have no idea what real cravings feel like.

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by malligator

Tomorrow (2/1/13) will by the 3 year anniversary of my transformation. On 2/1/10 I was 290 and am now 200 (heading to 180). It is the hardest thing I've ever done in my life and I know that keeping it off will be a major task for the rest of my life. I gain weight ridiculously easily so I have to be ever vigilant to keep it off. With all the peaks and valleys of my body weight over the last three years I've probably lost 200 pounds total to get here.

Dream, I know the numbers aren't in my favor for keeping it off, but I'll work everyday to make sure I'm one of the few that do.

And please understand that I'm saying more power to you. Obviously, some are successful. I hope, for your sake, that you're one of them.

But obviously it is not a natural state of affairs, white-knuckling to keep your weight well under where your body wants and needs to be.

[MeyerIsBack]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

You said you "have no sympathy for obesity." You must find it repulsive on some level.

Again I never used the word 'ugly' nor is it even in the realm of my discussion here; so,you are putting words in my mouth. Just like the word 'repulsive'. 'Sympathy' (the word I used) is lacking because I believe someone's weight is the direct result of lifestyle choices.

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

Fat people are typically *willing* to be thin. And they typically try to be thin more often that people like me try to be more muscular. Is it possible that you are *understating* the problem ?

I would love for you to expand on the word 'trying'. I have yet to meet a person who is overweight that can't lose weight. Surely, there are challenges but only a very few cannot be overcome.

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

Never mind others. Thinks about you. You don't have to try to stay slightly pudgy. You have to try to stay lean.

What is so bad about having to put a little effort or thought into maintaining health? I would also argue that we are fighting against cultural norms to remain healthy. If we could change these norms, it would make it easier for everyone to remain healthy.

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

Yes, people tend to eat more than they need and possibly move less than should. But again, the body ramps up hunger and literally slows you down to maintain weight. And in fact, when you lose weight, not only does hunger tend to increase but general activity levels decrease. It's all part-and-parcel of survival mechanisms.

A caloric deficit tends to cause a decrease in the amount of calories burned. However, the slow down in calorie burning is small compared to the deficit. The result is a caloric deficit, AKA, weight loss.


-----
What exactly are you suggesting?

I think you are saying that people should never worry about weight because it is not controllable. Also, you seem to be suggesting that there are no health implications to being overweight (this obviously ignores common scientific beliefs). Please correct me if I am wrong. And what is this 'healthy fat' you seem to be promoting?

What about young people?

Should we forget about teaching them to eat healthy and exercise because 'their body' is already predetermined to be the weight it is going to be?

It is like you believe people are powerless against food/fat. I am not buying it.

[MeyerIsBack]

Originally Posted by malligator

Tomorrow (2/1/13) will by the 3 year anniversary of my transformation. On 2/1/10 I was 290 and am now 200 (heading to 180). It is the hardest thing I've ever done in my life and I know that keeping it off will be a major task for the rest of my life. I gain weight ridiculously easily so I have to be ever vigilant to keep it off. With all the peaks and valleys of my body weight over the last three years I've probably lost 200 pounds total to get here.

Dream, I know the numbers aren't in my favor for keeping it off, but I'll work everyday to make sure I'm one of the few that do. I agree with your natural weight belief, though. Sometimes I want to binge so godam bad I can't stand it. All you naturally skinny sumbitches () can believe I have no willpower, but until you've been fat you have no idea what real cravings feel like.

Congrats. You obviously have willpower if you have made it this far.

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by MeyerIsBack

Again I never used the word 'ugly' nor is it even in the realm of my discussion here; so,you are putting words in my mouth. Just like the word 'repulsive'. 'Sympathy' (the word I used) is lacking because I believe someone's weight is the direct result of lifestyle choices.



I would love for you to expand on the word 'trying'. I have yet to meet a person who is overweight that can't lose weight. Surely, there are challenges but only a very few cannot be overcome.



What is so bad about having to put a little effort or thought into maintaining health? I would also argue that we are fighting against cultural norms to remain healthy. If we could change these norms, it would make it easier for everyone to remain healthy.



A caloric deficit tends to cause a decrease in the amount of calories burned. However, the slow down in calorie burning is small compared to the deficit. The result is a caloric deficit, AKA, weight loss.


-----
What exactly are you suggesting?

I think you are saying that people should never worry about weight because it is not controllable. Also, you seem to be suggesting that there are no health implications to being overweight (this obviously ignores common scientific beliefs). Please correct me if I am wrong. And what is this 'healthy fat' you seem to be promoting?

What about young people?

Should we forget about teaching them to eat healthy and exercise because 'their body' is already predetermined to be the weight it is going to be?

It is like you believe people are powerless against food/fat. I am not buying it.

I just don't think the facts fit your simplistic views on bodyshape. You're defensive, as I was, and are straining to avoid the implications of the evidence.

And you're still missing the point on weight-loss. Nobody said you can't lose weight. Damn near everyone can lose weight SHORT-TERM. Almost nobody can keep it off for any appreciable amount of time. You seem to acknowledge the weight-loss maintenance issue yet continue to seek refuge in the notion of short-term weight-loss.

Who said don't exercise ? As far as I'm concerned, exercise has documented health benefits. BUT the problem with exercise is that recidivism is as high as with weight-loss. Better that most should find an activity they enjoy, which may be as simple as walking.

Finally, what is 'eating healthy' ? Is eating to lose weight, then gaining it back, eating to lose weight, then gaining it back, eating to lose weight, then gaining it back ... healthy ?

[MeyerIsBack]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

I just don't think the facts fit your simplistic views on bodyshape. You're defensive, as I was, and are straining to avoid the implications of the evidence.

I suppose I oppose your view point strongly. If that makes me 'defensive' about my 'simplistic views' then so be it. And yes I do fail to see the implications of this evidence in the same light as you because I certainly don't draw the same conclusions as you do.

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

And you're still missing the point on weight-loss. Nobody said you can't lose weight.

There has been a whole lot going on in this thread. Discussions about 'genetic obesity' and predetermined body types. Those terms suggest to me that a physiological incapability to lose weight exists. There may be a disconnect in my interpretation.

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

Damn near everyone can lose weight SHORT-TERM. Almost nobody can keep it off for any appreciable amount of time. You seem to acknowledge the weight-loss maintenance issue yet continue to seek refuge in the notion of short-term weight-loss.

I certainly acknowledge the failure rate in maintaining weight loss. I just strongly disagree that the solution is to just accept obesity. I actually thought one of the better suggestions I have ever heard was yours about sustainable changes.

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

Who said don't exercise ? As far as I'm concerned, exercise has documented health benefits. BUT the problem with exercise is that recidivism is as high as with weight-loss. Better that most should find an activity they enjoy, which may be as simple as walking.

My apologies. I agree that activity is an important factor to a healthy lifestyle.

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

Finally, what is 'eating healthy' ? Is eating to lose weight, then gaining it back, eating to lose weight, then gaining it back, eating to lose weight, then gaining it back ... healthy ?

Eating healthy is eating at maintenance. In a perfect world people would be at a healthy weight and not gaining or losing. Also, food should provide the proper nutrients; which is not nearly as complicated as people make it (IMO).

[Dreamliner]

I understand that this 'new paradigm' is off-putting. It seems like giving up. I call it wising up. And it would be one thing for me to say "Obesity is bad, too bad you can't lose weight and keep it off", and another to say "Obesity is not bad, so why are you hell-bent on losing all that weight ?"

I'm saying the facts point to the latter.

Keep your eye on the ball. The issue is not short-term weight loss but rather the inability of willpower to override, for any length of time, the very powerful, unconscious drive to maintain fixed weight-range.

No need to apologize on the exercise. Indeed, I've been a little chippy myself and apologize for that.

And we may not be far apart on what healthy eating constitutes. If, as I suspect, the body is wired to maintain a fixed weight-range, then eating healthy would be not stressing about one's lot, eating the foods they enjoy (1) when hungry (2) and stopping when satisfied.

[MeyerIsBack]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

I understand that this 'new paradigm' is off-putting. It seems like giving up. I call it wising up. And it would be one thing for me to say "Obesity is bad, too bad you can't lose weight and keep it off", and another to say "Obesity is not bad, so why are you hell-bent on losing all that weight ?"

Maybe our disconnect is that I don't draw the conclusion that obesity is healthy. If I believed obesity was healthy then I would probably agree with your other assessments.

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

I'm saying the facts point to the latter.

I still really think the facts overwhelmingly point to obesity being unhealthy.

I will again point you to the CDC site that you seem to trust: http://www.cdc.gov/obesity/adult/causes/index.html

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

Keep your eye on the ball. The issue is not short-term weight loss but rather the inability of willpower to override, for any length of time, the very powerful, unconscious drive to maintain fixed weight-range.

I agree about long term weight loss maintenance failing often. It is an issue. However, I think it needs a solution, whereas, you think it is reason to not try. Until we agree on the consequences of being obese, this discussion will just continue to spin.

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

(1) when hungry (2) and stopping when satisfied.

I agree but these sensations are hard for people to recognize.

If you believed obesity was unhealthy what would be your approach to obesity?

What is your take on childhood obesity?

[Dreamliner]

CDC was forced to back down, in 2005, from their dire pronouncements:

http://www.obesitymyths.com/myth2.7.htm

So, if obesity is not unhealthy, why do we need a 'solution' ?

But even if I did believe that obesity is unhealthy, how could I entice people into doing something (losing weight) which they find so frustrating and stressful ? We're all going to die. Why should people torment themselves even if they believed it might by them 2-3 years ?

Childhood obesity = adult obesity. If adult obesity is not unhealthy, why should child obesity be unhealthy ? BUT, the notion of a child obesity epidemic rests on the same flawed assumptions that spawned the fake adult obesity crisis. On average, Americans have gotten slightly heavier, which has shifted the bell curve slightly to the right of the arbitrary cutoff point based on the dubious metric which is BMI.