Christian school vs. non-Christian teachers: Little Oaks School in CA

[bluelang]

Originally Posted by wgbgator

As I mentioned before, my objection isnt into the intent of hiring that fits the culture, but the means to extract this information. Are there limits to what employers can do to glean this information?

Absolutely. You can't ask an employee much of anything that isn't directly related to the work to be done. And since this is ostensibly a school, not a church, the work being done is "teaching," not "preaching."

I hire a lot of people, and I can't ask them their sex, age, nationality, etc - even conversationally. I sure as hell can't ask them their belief system.

[bluelang]

Originally Posted by QGator2414

If the employer feels they need more (abnormal situation) then the employee should have no issues finding a job in a normal situation assuming their skills are valued and move on

This has nothing to do with their SKILLS, it has to do with their BELIEFS. It is illegal to discriminate on basis of religion in all fifty states of our great union, and has been for decades.

[WESGATORS]

Originally Posted by bluelang

This has nothing to do with their SKILLS, it has to do with their BELIEFS.

If a child asks the teacher, "is God real?" What would you expect an atheist teacher at this school to respond with?

Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS

[bluelang]

Originally Posted by WESGATORS

If a child asks the teacher, "is God real?" What would you expect an atheist teacher at this school to respond with?

Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS

Whatever the curriculum states. That's the point at which the teacher themselves have to make the decision about whether or not they're in the right job.

Anyways, it's not up to me, you, the employer or anyone else's opinion. It's in the constitution, it's settled law, and in 40 years when Christians are a minority in the USA you'll all appreciate it a lot more. It is there to protect all Americans (and anyone working in America) equally.

[WESGATORS]

Originally Posted by bluelang

Absolutely. You can't ask an employee much of anything that isn't directly related to the work to be done. And since this is ostensibly a school, not a church, the work being done is "teaching," not "preaching."

But it is related to the work to be done. From the school's website:

Part of its expressed purpose of existence...

...and cherishing timeless Christian principles in its methods.

Further down they elaborate...

Our philosophy at Little Oaks recognizes that all wisdom comes from God; “Fear [deep reverence and respect] of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction.” Prov 1:7. In addition, we know that children benefit from a warm, supportive environment that provides stimulating, Godly experiences that are planned to meet age appropriate developmental and educational needs. We provide instruction; stimulate exploration, and monitor/provide feedback regarding their developing skills in an environment that reinforces personal responsibility, positive reinforcement, and Godly Love.

I don't know how one could possibly assume that one's religion isn't "directly related to the work to be done" in this case. Sometimes I think you atheists fear God more than us Christians do.

Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS

[WESGATORS]

Originally Posted by bluelang

Anyways, it's not up to me, you, the employer or anyone else's opinion. It's in the constitution, it's settled law, and in 40 years when Christians are a minority in the USA you'll all appreciate it a lot more. It is there to protect all Americans (and anyone working in America) equally.

And what part of the Constitution is in violation here?

For what it's worth (and I mentioned this earlier), I'd feel the same way about a Muslim school or about an Atheist school; so I do believe in equality; I just also believe in leaving people alone in their own business so long as they are violating the rights of others.

Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS

[bluelang]

Originally Posted by WESGATORS

And what part of the Constitution is in violation here?

For what it's worth (and I mentioned this earlier), I'd feel the same way about a Muslim school or about an Atheist school; so I do believe in equality; I just also believe in leaving people alone in their own business so long as they are violating the rights of others.

Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS

It's pretty well established that you and I don't agree on these things and that you won't bother to do any research to understand them, so I think we'll just call this one finished.

[helix139]

Originally Posted by bluelang

Whatever the curriculum states. That's the point at which the teacher themselves have to make the decision about whether or not they're in the right job.

Anyways, it's not up to me, you, the employer or anyone else's opinion. It's in the constitution, it's settled law, and in 40 years when Christians are a minority in the USA you'll all appreciate it a lot more. It is there to protect all Americans (and anyone working in America) equally.

Settled law allows discrimination on the basis of religion when it is a bona fide occupational qualification. It seems in this case it is based on the aims and objectives of the school.

[WESGATORS]

Originally Posted by bluelang

It's pretty well established that you and I don't agree on these things and that you won't bother to do any research to understand them, so I think we'll just call this one finished.

I recall the discussion about the school prayer at the public school, but I do not recall any of the other discussions on this type of matter. This is a different issue since it involves a private school. You brought a point up that I felt did not apply, and I expressed why. You brought up a reference to the Constitution, and I asked which part you were referring to. You don't have to respond, obviously, but I'm interested in your input because it is different than what I would have expected. That I might have more questions or challenges for you only means that I am interested in what you have to say. If we end up disagreeing again, so be it, but this will have been an entirely different subject than what I recall having discussed with you previously. I'd also be interested in AzCat's, Row's, 108's, and Thedyc09's (sp?) take (among other atheists).

Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS

[bluelang]

There are hundreds and hundreds of repeats of the same info under a google search for "illegal interview questions," but here's a summary:

http://labor-employment-law.lawyers....Interview.html

And here's the web page from the govmnt itself:

http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/religion.cfm

You guys all complaining about this crap are the worst. These laws PROTECT YOU. Just because your sensitive little religious ego got bruised in this one stupid case suddenly you want to throw away all constitutional protections for equality in the workplace. Completely and utterly stupid, short-sighted, and embarrassing.

[bluelang]

The school actually could have gotten off the hook if they were operating as a non-profit church rather than as a for-profit school, and if they required all teachers to be ordained ministers:

http://www.scotusblog.com/?p=136532

[WESGATORS]

Originally Posted by bluelang

There are hundreds and hundreds of repeats of the same info under a google search for "illegal interview questions," but here's a summary:

http://labor-employment-law.lawyers....Interview.html

And here's the web page from the govmnt itself:

http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/religion.cfm

You guys all complaining about this crap are the worst. These laws PROTECT YOU. Just because your sensitive little religious ego got bruised in this one stupid case suddenly you want to throw away all constitutional protections for equality in the workplace. Completely and utterly stupid, short-sighted, and embarrassing.

With all due respect, you are incorrect, please note the section on exceptions for Title VII:


link to EEOC.gov compliance manual Section 12 (Religious Discrimination)

C. Exceptions
1. Religious Organizations

Under Title VII, religious organizations are permitted to give employment preference to members of their own religion.[42] The exception applies only to those institutions whose “purpose and character are primarily religious.”[43] That determination is to be based on “[a]ll significant religious and secular characteristics.”[44] Although no one factor is dispositive, significant factors to consider that would indicate whether an entity is religious include:

Do its articles of incorporation state a religious purpose?
Are its day-to-day operations religious (e.g., are the services the entity performs, the product it produces, or the educational curriculum it provides directed toward propagation of the religion)?
Is it not-for-profit?
Is it affiliated with or supported by a church or other religious organization? [45]

This exception is not limited to religious activities of the organization.[46] However, it only allows religious organizations to prefer to employ individuals who share their religion.[47] The exception does not allow religious organizations otherwise to discriminate in employment on protected bases other than religion, such as race, color, national origin, sex, age, or disability.[48] Thus, a religious organization is not permitted to engage in racially discriminatory hiring by asserting that a tenet of its religious beliefs is not associating with people of other races. Similarly, a religious organization is not permitted to deny fringe benefits to married women but not to married men by asserting a religiously based view that only men can be the head of a household.

But just for kicks. Please tell me how your interpretation of the law would possibly offer me any protection of my rights if I already believe that an entity has the right to discriminate against me and my religious beliefs? Your accusation doesn't make any sense.

Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS

[QGator2414]

Originally Posted by wgbgator

And I say it can be limited by the democratic process. We have the right to protect ourselves from what we deem as overreaches of private power, because, as you say, they are apparently entitled to as much as they want and can leverage out of us. The democratic process is our best defense, as we don't have a Constitution protecting us from abuses of private power.

What abuses of private power? If no employees will work for a free abusive employer then liberty and freedom will take care of that abusive power when the employer has no employees...

I guess tyranny is okay if it benefits you?

[QGator2414]

Originally Posted by bluelang

This has nothing to do with their SKILLS, it has to do with their BELIEFS. It is illegal to discriminate on basis of religion in all fifty states of our great union, and has been for decades.

And if you can prove discrimination you will win.

If an employer lets a person go go properly it will be an impossible law suit...