Obesity Is Not Killing Us ...

[ATL_Gator]

Originally Posted by MeyerIsBack

Clearly not my point. I would argue medicine is advancing and keeping people alive longer. Correlation does not prove causation.

So you are saying that with all other things being equal you believe a person that is 20, 50, or 100 pounds overweight has an equal quality of life to a person that is a healthy weight?

Just to stand on the fence here...

keep in mind that "quality of life" is subjective.

If a person is 50 lb overweight, doesn't exercise, but doesn't experience ANY physical limitations in what he/she WANTS to do and is perfectly happy in that... I would argue they are living a "high quality of life".

Just because they can't run a marathon and lift the back end of a Volkswagen (at the same time?) doesn't mean they suffer from any less quality of life when compared to a person who can.

IF any person wants to do something, but they can not do it because of physical limitations DUE to their decisions (I.E. if they made different decisions, they could do this).. THEN they are experiencing a reduced quality of life.

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by MeyerIsBack

Clearly not my point. I would argue medicine is advancing and keeping people alive longer. Correlation does not prove causation.

So you are saying that with all other things being equal you believe a person that is 20, 50, or 100 pounds overweight has an equal quality of life to a person that is a healthy weight?

For that matter, 'correlation does not prove causation' applies to medication as well. Ex: cholesterol drugs only appear to be marginally effective for a small segment of people who take them.

And remember, to correct you, I am not saying anything. I'm just reading the research from the CDC, JAMA and other organizations. They strongly confirm what both researchers and physicians have been calling the 'Obesity Paradox' for years.

[MeyerIsBack]

Originally Posted by ATL_Gator

Just to stand on the fence here...

keep in mind that "quality of life" is subjective.

If a person is 50 lb overweight, doesn't exercise, but doesn't experience ANY physical limitations in what he/she WANTS to do and is perfectly happy in that... I would argue they are living a "high quality of life".

Just because they can't run a marathon and lift the back end of a Volkswagen (at the same time?) doesn't mean they suffer from any less quality of life when compared to a person who can.

IF any person wants to do something, but they can not do it because of physical limitations DUE to their decisions (I.E. if they made different decisions, they could do this).. THEN they are experiencing a reduced quality of life.

Things like grocery shopping, mowing the lawn, cleaning, playing with kids, playing with grand kids, or any kind of athletic activities are easier skinny people. Some of these things, depending on the level of obesity, are only possible for the skinny person. When you start limiting things that you can do because of weight then I would assume that would hurt quality of life.

[ATL_Gator]

Originally Posted by MeyerIsBack

Things like grocery shopping, mowing the lawn, cleaning, playing with kids, playing with grand kids, or any kind of athletic activities are easier skinny people. Some of these things, depending on the level of obesity, are only possible for the skinny person. When you start limiting things that you can do because of weight then I would assume that would hurt quality of life.

I would agree 100%, if you change one word....

"When you start limiting things that you want to do because of weight then I would assume that would hurt quality of life."

In my current state, I can not go mountain climbing (i.e. rock climbing). I do not have the strength to do so, nor the stamina. I do not see how that reduces my quality of life because I really do not want to go mountain climbing.. at all.

If I wanted to, and couldn't... then yes. I agree.

[Dreamliner]

Quality of Life is such a squishy term.

[MeyerIsBack]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

Quality of Life is such a squishy term.

I would be glad to hear a better term.
what point does weight become debilitating?

When you lose your breath going up stairs?
When you can no longer take the stairs?
When a young person needs help getting out of a chair?

Or is it just when you somebody says 'I wish I was skinnier'? Vanity?

I would be glad to call it something else but I think it is a real factor.

[ATL_Gator]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

Quality of Life is such a squishy term.

Exactly. To make it worse, it changes with time. UGH!

All I can personally tell you... what I want to do now is slightly different than 10 years ago, and I am sure will be somewhat different in another 10.

[ATL_Gator]

Originally Posted by MeyerIsBack

I would be glad to hear a better term.
what point does weight become debilitating?

When you lose your breath going up stairs?
When you can no longer take the stairs?
When a young person needs help getting out of a chair?

Or is it just when you somebody says 'I wish I was skinnier'? Vanity?

I would be glad to call it something else but I think it is a real factor.

IMO, it only matters when someone cares about any of that.

IF they don't care that they need a scooter to get around the grocery store (and EVERYTHING that goes along with that), then who is someone else to tell them they are suffering a reduced quality of life? That is not for someone else to decide.

IF they have a problem with my 4 year old asking me quite loudly why they are fat and using a scooter inside... then that is a different story.

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by MeyerIsBack

I would be glad to hear a better term.
what point does weight become debilitating?

When you lose your breath going up stairs?
When you can no longer take the stairs?
When a young person needs help getting out of a chair?

Or is it just when you somebody says 'I wish I was skinnier'? Vanity?

I would be glad to call it something else but I think it is a real factor.

We're STILL back to the issue of the almost certain inevitability of weight regain.

A fat person can indeed improve conditioning.

Orthopedists are particularly bad about putting thin people on exercise, for joint pain, but simply telling fat people to lose weight.

[Dreamliner]

Meyer, you seem to be talking about morbid obesity. This is indeed a serious problem. And the folks at the extreme ends of the curve, the underweight and the morbidly obese die earlier.

[MeyerIsBack]

Originally Posted by ATL_Gator

IMO, it only matters when someone cares about any of that.

IF they don't care that they need a scooter to get around the grocery store (and EVERYTHING that goes along with that), then who is someone else to tell them they are suffering a reduced quality of life? That is not for someone else to decide.

IF they have a problem with my 4 year old asking me quite loudly why they are fat and using a scooter inside... then that is a different story.

I 100% agree with everything you said. I just have a hard time reconciling that would be a happy life for somebody.

[MeyerIsBack]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

We're STILL back to the issue of the almost certain inevitability of weight regain.

A fat person can indeed improve conditioning.

Orthopedists are particularly bad about putting thin people on exercise, for joint pain, but simply telling fat people to lose weight.

To sum it up

1. We are not sure if there is any reason to be skinny
2. There is no point in losing weight because we will just regain.

Are you sure you are in the right line of work?

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by MeyerIsBack

To sum it up

1. We are not sure if there is any reason to be skinny
2. There is no point in losing weight because we will just regain.

Are you sure you are in the right line of work?

Hehe, I see myself at the crest of a new wave of helping professionals. Who said you had to lose a bunch of weight to be fit ? Who made up the rule that people of all shapes and sizes can't improve their health through more intuitive eating and some level of activity ?

If anything, I see myself as an advocate for people of all shapes and sizes and one who can aid them in breaking free of the tyranny of chronic dieting and the unrelenting pressure to become a shape that is not in the cards for them.

Hey, I myself had to reckon with the knowledge that I will never be a muscular man. It just ain't going to happen.

[MeyerIsBack]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

Hehe, I see myself at the crest of a new wave of helping professionals. Who said you had to lose a bunch of weight to be fit ? Who made up the rule that people of all shapes and sizes can't improve their health through more intuitive eating and some level of activity ?

If anything, I see myself as an advocate for people of all shapes and sizes and one who can aid them in breaking free of the tyranny of chronic dieting and the unrelenting pressure to become a shape that is not in the cards for them.

Hey, I myself had to reckon with the knowledge that I will never be a muscular man. It just ain't going to happen.

Have you changed your views recently because I used to find myself agreeing with you more often? I really liked your model about sustainable lifestyle changes. I just don't agree that there are people who canNOT be a reasonable weight. I feel like you have gone to the dark side.

[ATL_Gator]

Originally Posted by MeyerIsBack

Have you changed your views recently because I used to find myself agreeing with you more often? I really liked your model about sustainable lifestyle changes. I just don't agree that there are people who canNOT be a reasonable weight. I feel like you have gone to the dark side.

I was thinking the same thing.

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by MeyerIsBack

Have you changed your views recently because I used to find myself agreeing with you more often? I really liked your model about sustainable lifestyle changes. I just don't agree that there are people who canNOT be a reasonable weight. I feel like you have gone to the dark side.

Yeah, it was your agreeing with me so much that caused me to reevaluate.

Look, I hear what you're saying. It sounds like I'm encouraging people to just give up. In reality, I'm encouraging people to wise up.

I'm still very much into sustainability though. But I believe there is a world of difference between sustaining healthy weight range and, for most people, sustaining substantial weight loss.

Again I'd like to state that whereas I will not invite anyone to consciously lose weight (do no harm), I will not be surprised if some lose weight simply by learning to eat more intuitively and add activity.

I further anticipate that I will be meeting people who are somewhere on the weight-loss/weight-regain continuum. My sister is a good example. Though naturally thin like me, she's a marathoner. But since landing a new consulting job she has been forced to cut back on running and has gained about ten pounds. She thinks she's fat but is probably within her natural weight range such that if she resumes her running, the weight will probably come back off.

[MeyerIsBack]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

Yeah, it was your agreeing with me so much that caused me to reevaluate.

Look, I hear what you're saying. It sounds like I'm encouraging people to just give up. In reality, I'm encouraging people to wise up.

I'm still very much into sustainability though. But I believe there is a world of difference between sustaining healthy weight range and, for most people, sustaining substantial weight loss.

Again I'd like to state that whereas I will not invite anyone to consciously lose weight (do no harm), I will not be surprised if some lose weight simply by learning to eat more intuitively and add activity.

I further anticipate that I will be meeting people who are somewhere on the weight-loss/weight-regain continuum. My sister is a good example. Though naturally thin like me, she's a marathoner. But since landing a new consulting job she has been forced to cut back on running and has gained about ten pounds. She thinks she's fat but is probably within her natural weight range such that if she resumes her running, the weight will probably come back off.

I will stop outwardly agreeing with you if you come back to the good guys.

Just an FYI. I have been in pretty good shape most of my adult life. I had a baby 21 months ago. She had trouble sleeping because of a multitude of minor health issues. In an effort to keep up with her needs, I neglected myself and put on about 25 pounds. Your posts on this forum were instrumental in me getting back in shape. I really am thankful for your input.

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by MeyerIsBack

I will stop outwardly agreeing with you if you come back to the good guys.

Just an FYI. I have been in pretty good shape most of my adult life. I had a baby 21 months ago. She had trouble sleeping because of a multitude of minor health issues. In an effort to keep up with her needs, I neglected myself and put on about 25 pounds. Your posts on this forum were instrumental in me getting back in shape. I really am thankful for your input.

I'm very happy to hear that. Is it possible that your current weight is closer to your natural weight ? If you were a good deal less active than usual - and if your eating was a bit disjointed - I can see where that might be the case.

I'm now partial to the setpoint theory, or something like it, which presupposes that the body is hardwired to maintain a particular weight range, within 10-15 pounds for most.

My personal experience is that my weight fluctuates five pounds, skinny as I am, based on activity level or if I binge for a bit.

But I've come to my senses on believing that people can just lose any amount of weight they wish and keep it off via willpower. Refer to the National Weight Control Registry to read about the ends that people typically go to to maintain weight-loss of thirty pounds or more for as little as a year.

There are some who believe you can systematically ratchet your setpoint down, but it strikes me as a bit of quackery.

Is it sad that people can't significantly change their shapes ? Or is it sad that people cannot be happy with the basic shapes they were essentially born with due to arbitrary cultural norms ?

[MeyerIsBack]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

I'm very happy to hear that. Is it possible that your current weight is closer to your natural weight ? If you were a good deal less active than usual - and if your eating was a bit disjointed - I can see where that might be the case.

I'm now partial to the setpoint theory, or something like it, which presupposes that the body is hardwired to maintain a particular weight range, within 10-15 pounds for most.

My personal experience is that my weight fluctuates five pounds, skinny as I am, based on activity level or if I binge for a bit.

But I've come to my senses on believing that people can just lose any amount of weight they wish and keep it off via willpower. Refer to the National Weight Control Registry to read about the ends that people typically go to to maintain weight-loss of thirty pounds or more for as little as a year.

There are some who believe you can systematically ratchet your setpoint down, but it strikes me as a bit of quackery.

Is it sad that people can't significantly change their shapes ? Or is it sad that people cannot be happy with the basic shapes they were essentially born with due to arbitrary cultural norms ?

I like to eat. So for me to maintain a healthy weight, I either have to monitor my eating or increase my activity. I really do a combination of both. If I had to say I had a 'natural weight', I would say it was the higher weight because that is the weight I ended up at without thinking about it. However, I don't really think there is a natural weight. I think there are bad eating habits and low activity. I think people may gravitate towards certain weights because of their habits but I don't believe that a person is born physiologically predetermined to be obese.

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

But I've come to my senses on believing that people can just lose any amount of weight they wish and keep it off via willpower.

I actually kind of agree with you on this because of its documented failure rate. I believe people SHOULD be able to lose weight and maintain the loss. However, that is obviously not the case. I would hypothesize that it is more of a behavioral and psychological issue than physiological.

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

Is it sad that people can't significantly change their shapes ? Or is it sad that people cannot be happy with the basic shapes they were essentially born with due to arbitrary cultural norms ?

There are obviously weird body shapes but obesity (IMHO) is the result of a lifestyle. I have no sympathy for obesity. I have a weird soft spot for generational obesity because it is almost like that is all they ever knew. Almost like generational welfare. I think the saddest part is the constant conflicting information that gives fat people justification for being fat. It is now nearly impossible to argue that a person can lose weight because every fat person claims to have a slow 'metabolism'. Or uses 'starvation mode' as a reason to not eat too 'little'. When in reality the majority of these people are well over daily recommended values because they have no clue what 2,000 calories looks like. That is the saddest part to me.

The other extremely upsetting trend is that people get fat, get depressed (These first two may be reversed, there is a chicken and egg debate), end up on antidepressants, gain more weight, which heightens depression. The newer short life-cycle SSRIs are hard to discontinue so people spend a lifetime on these drugs that make weight loss even harder. I think I read that 11% of people over the age of 12 are on antidepressants. The effectiveness (especially of newer drugs) is also in serious question. Which is another question I have about weight gain. Does weight gain cause medical problems that require medicine that cause more medical problems?

[MeyerIsBack]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

More on the recently released compilation of studies showing people who are overweight with less mortality risks than people of normal weight:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...king-thin.html

For the record, because I've been muddled for awhile about the supposed link between obesity and mortality, I have never resorted to fearmongering with fat people. In fact, I never badger people about their weight. That's entirely their business. I turn my attention and efforts towards people who think their fat is ugly.

Is this their weight when they die? Healthy old people tend to gain a little weight as they age. This could easily put people into the overweight category of BMI at the end of their life. It would be interesting to see their weights when they were in their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, and 60s.