Coach Meyer on Tim Tebow

[96Gatorcise]

Originally Posted by 95Gator

Just fundamentally disagree with your logic. He has a very unique skill set that is based more on will and drive (intangibles) that can't be measured on the field by a few plays.

He was meant to lead and furthermore, that leadership that he has shown through his life worked in the NFL. It's on friggen record. It speaks for itself what he did. He not only succeeded but he did it with passion and made a boring league fun. I was rooting for Broncos more than my Giants. Watching him lead them to a playoff win was equally or more fun than any of the Super Bowl victories by my Giants.

It makes no sense. Takes over a team, leads them to playoffs, wins a game, and now he can't find a home. F#$K the NFL.

Really? Watching TT go 3 and out for 58 minutes was anything but fun.

[whitelakegator]

Originally Posted by AndyGator

People here think Tebow is OWED a chance.

I'm not claiming that Tebow is near the league of Payton. But Tebow did turn Denver around and actually won a playoff game. He was not given a chance to see what he could do with a full year of experience.

From a business perspective, Denver paid 95M for Payton yet got less post-season victories than with Tebow the year before. Had they invested that money in other quality players and given Tebow another year, would they have done any worse?

Ending the regular season on a three game losing streak and in the last game for the AFC West title vs the chiefs how did Tebow do? 6-22 for 60 yards and 3 points. That Denver defense only gave up 7. You should win that game and Elway probably saw that and made his mind up then and there. They lost 4 of their last 5. People aren't seeing reality.

[TheRaid]

Atlanta

You are putting words in people's posts to justify your own arguments.

owing a chance?

He proved people wrong including you. You just don't want to admit it.

For whatever reason, he is not handed the keys to the car. But it is not because he proved he could not drive. On the contrary, he was given a broken Taurus and he out raced much better cars but didn't look sexy doing it. So he wont be allowed to drive the mustang. We don't know why exactly. But it aint because he can't throw the ball or win a game at qb with arm tied behind.his.back.because the fact remains that he led a broken Denver team to qualify for.the.playoffs.and win one playoff game when they were left for dead. No matter how much you revision that, you have the problem of that.fact undermining your whole argument.

[atlantagator86]

Originally Posted by TheRaid

Atlanta

You are putting words in people's posts to justify your own arguments.

owing a chance?

He proved people wrong including you. You just don't want to admit it.

For whatever reason, he is not handed the keys to the car. But it is not because he proved he could not drive. On the contrary, he was given a broken Taurus and he out raced much better cars but didn't look sexy doing it. So he wont be allowed to drive the mustang. We don't know why exactly. But it aint because he can't throw the ball or win a game at qb with arm tied behind.his.back.because the fact remains that he led a broken Denver team to qualify for.the.playoffs.and win one playoff game when they were left for dead. No matter how much you revision that, you have the problem of that.fact undermining your whole argument.

I'm not even sure I know what you're trying to say here. I didn't put words in anybody's mouth. You said:

... if you think the Jets GAVE him a chance ...

My point is that he hasn't had a chance because as far as the coach and GM are concerned, he apparently didn't EARN that chance, for whatever reason.

And how did Tebow prove me or anybody else wrong? And proved what wrong?

Tebow was "not handed the keys to the car" this year because the Jets coaches didn't trust him to drive the car, not because he wrecked the car. They trusted Greg McElroy more than Tebow to drive the car. Not because Tebow proved that he couldn't drive, but because for whatever reason they felt that McElroy would drive it better.

And I am totally lost on your last point about the "fact". What fact? Are you saying that because he was on the Denver team that won a playoff game, he proved himself to be a really good NFL starting QB?

If that's your point, then lets take a baseball analogy. You closer blows the lead in all 12 home games he pitched in, but the team somehow comes back in the bottom of the 9th and wins all 12 games. Is that guy likely to be your closer next year? I mean he had a 12-0 record and the team won every game he was in, so he must be good by what I assume is your logic.

The answer is no. There's more to it than just whether the team won the games you played in. And for whatever the reason, even after the playoffs last year, Elway made it pretty clear that Tebow wasn't going to be Denver's starting QB in 2013. If you want to believe that it's because there is some league-wide conspiracy against Tebow, then that's just what you're going to believe.

I think it's because of 2 reasons. First, because of his performance. But second is because he is a polarizing figure, in the media, with fans and clearly in the locker room. It's been pretty clear both in Denver and New York that the other players don't like the attention Tebow gets. I saw some thing written earlier this year that led me to believe that several of the Jets offensive players said they would not play with Tebow. And we know that several Denver players didn't like Tebow being around. I think Demarius Thomas, they guy who caught the game winning pass in the playoff game pretty much said he was glad Tebow was gone.

It may very well be that the reason coaches won't give Tebow a real chance is that they don't want to deal with the locker room turmoil and distractions Tebow brings. A QB with a 65% completion rating and rating oner 100 might be worth it, but a guy with a sub 50% and passer rating around 75 might not be.

[theghost]

Originally Posted by LimeyGator

You find it outlandish or hilarious that "most Gator fans" think this.

Mind if I ask how you know? Straw poll on Twitter? Chat with a couple dozen alumni?

It's a sweeping generalisation that throws people under the bus. I don't feel like there's a collusion. Am I "most Gator fans"?

Apparantly you post...but don't read too much of the message boards. It's the same thing every time a Tebow thread is started. One big conspiracy to keep him off the field...or EVERY NFL exec, coach, pundit, etc has it out for him...or they are just simply idiots.

I like Tebow as much as the next Gator fan....but once they leave Gainesville for the greener pastures of the NFL, I don't really lose sleep over it. Sorry that you do....

[atlantagator86]

Originally Posted by 95Gator

Just fundamentally disagree with your logic. He has a very unique skill set that is based more on will and drive (intangibles) that can't be measured on the field by a few plays.

He was meant to lead and furthermore, that leadership that he has shown through his life worked in the NFL. It's on friggen record. It speaks for itself what he did. He not only succeeded but he did it with passion and made a boring league fun. I was rooting for Broncos more than my Giants. Watching him lead them to a playoff win was equally or more fun than any of the Super Bowl victories by my Giants.

This part of my comment isn't directed at you but I find it very interesting how polarizing of a topic as this has become. It seems that even though we are ALL Tebow fans, about half the people here can only see that that Tebow has just gotten totally screwed and half the people feel that maybe he just wasn't ever good enough to be an NFL QB. There is no middle ground. Just pointing that out because that just goes to show how polarizing a figure Tebow is.

Now to your points:

I absolutely agree with you that Tebow has a unique set of skills. I think his biggest leadership skill is making the people around him play better. And I think that the problem with that skill set is that it's not something that really shows itself in practice. I even seem to recall Meyer saying something to the effect that Tebow wasn't an overly impressive practice player.

And there are other QBs who were kind similar in that way. Bradshaw and Favre are 2 that come to mind.

The difference is that Bradshaw and Favre weren't the polarizing figures in the locker room that Tebow is.

[LimeyGator]

Originally Posted by theghost

Apparantly you post...but don't read too much of the message boards. It's the same thing every time a Tebow thread is started. One big conspiracy to keep him off the field...or EVERY NFL exec, coach, pundit, etc has it out for him...or they are just simply idiots.

I like Tebow as much as the next Gator fan....but once they leave Gainesville for the greener pastures of the NFL, I don't really lose sleep over it. Sorry that you do....

No need to get defensive about it, theghost.

I can assure you my kids wreck my sleep far more than any Gators who make the NFL, but your concern is appreciated.

I was just bothered that you casually tossed out an assumption that "most Gator fans" feel the way you clearly disapprove of, as if there are but a select and kingly few who are somehow capable of rationalising the situation.

Yes, we have our fair share of partisan Pro-Tebow fans and I don't blame them one iota. That's their choice - the guy was a Gator legend so I can see why they may feel that way.

However, this board regularly has back and forths about his tribulations in the NFL. In fact, I believe I repped Wormwood for such a sentiment earlier in this thread by just a few posts.

My only issue was how you seemed to imply it was "most Gator fans". I simply don't think that's the case.

[atlantagator86]

Originally Posted by Spurffelbow833

What is it with some people that you can't make the slightest suggestion that organizations and collectives might behave in a shady or injust manner without getting attacked ad hominem? Not even when you're defending Tim Tebow?

That's not what you said! What you said was:

... I blame collusion on the part of the NFL ...

Collusion is defined as:

secret agreement or cooperation especially for an illegal or deceitful purpose

You made a direct accusation of "collusion" by the NFL. That's a pretty serious accusation, especially when there's nothing backing it. That's MUCH more than the "slightest suggestion that organizations and collectives might behave in a shady or injust manner".

So yes, you're probably going to get called on it. And you were not personally attacked. But your statement was definitely brought into question.

[whitelakegator]

Hyperbole - The communication of choice on all message boards.

[TheRaid]

Atlanta

I don't know who you are arguing with and who you categorize in which box you have made, or why you.have to make one at all to.have a discussion, and I have no idea why you cannot understand my simple dumbed down post. But all I am saying is that Tebow did earn more than he got. To say otherwise is simply denial for the sake of denial. He far exceeded expectations in Denver where he was setup to fail. He has been mishandled in NY according to a former coach there. We do not know the real reasons he has been treated that way. We all agree he is polarizing, but not nearly as polarizing as the.media.has made him to be. There are many polarizing figures. You keep harping on stats. He is not held out because of stats. one day perhaps we will learn what is really happening behind the closed doors. Perhaps not. At this point, I really am not interested in talking about it any more as I was only marginally interested in the topic.

But I was drawn in when you started saying things that deny facts when they are there in the face and start acting like an ESPN ditto.head to denigrate TT as if he did not and cannot do anything in the NFL and.cannot.lead a team to victories in the NFL. He did. And you cannot take that.fact away no matter how.much.you want to.

[atlantagator86]

Originally Posted by TheRaid

Atlanta

I don't know who you are arguing with and who you categorize in which box you have made, or why you.have to make one at all to.have a discussion, and I have no idea why you cannot understand my simple dumbed down post. But all I am saying is that Tebow did earn more than he got. To say otherwise is simply denial for the sake of denial. He far exceeded expectations in Denver where he was setup to fail. He has been mishandled in NY according to a former coach there. We do not know the real reasons he has been treated that way. We all agree he is polarizing, but not nearly as polarizing as the.media.has made him to be. There are many polarizing figures. You keep harping on stats. He is not held out because of stats. one day perhaps we will learn what is really happening behind the closed doors. Perhaps not. At this point, I really am not interested in talking about it any more as I was only marginally interested in the topic.

But I was drawn in when you started saying things that deny facts when they are there in the face and start acting like an ESPN ditto.head to denigrate TT as if he did not and cannot do anything in the NFL and.cannot.lead a team to victories in the NFL. He did. And you cannot take that.fact away no matter how.much.you want to.

My debate in the post replying to you was directed at you and your statements. You said I put words in your mouth, but I didn't.

The sentiment of people thinking Tebow should be GIVEN a chance was directed at you AND others who keep saying that Tebow hasn't been given a chance and all the reasons (coaches against him, collusion by the NFL, etc - I don't know what reasons you use).

I replied to your post because you you used the words "... if you think the Jets GAVE him a chance ..." (GAVE in all caps), which I take to mean that the Jets OWED Tebow the chance.

As far as what he did in Denver, I guess that's just a matter of opinion and we can just agree to disagree. I'm not sure why you think some of us who are Tebow fans, but weren't in awe of Tebow's Denver performance and don't think any team should want to build their offense around him means we're in denial.

But like I said, Tebow is a very polarizing figure, even here among his fans. There is very little middle ground.

I think it's kind of humorous that you think Tebow "far exceeded expectations". As I see it, Tebow did okay. That's it. He didn't suck. He did well considering some of the circumstances but he also made a lot of mistakes. His season in Denver kind of reminded me of some of the seasons Rex Grossman has had. Good enough to win some games, but nowhere near good enough that a team is going to try to build an offense around him.

How can you possibly say he wasn't held out this year because of stats?!?! Do you seriously think that he wouldn't have gotten more touches for the Jets if he had moved the ball or led TD drives?!?! But he didn't. The Jets offense was just as bad with Tebow in there as Sanchez. I think we both agree that there was more to it than just the stats, but I don't think there was any sort of conspiracy or collusion or anything like others are saying. Regardless of what was going on behind the scenes, Tebow's performance didn't give the coaches any reason to give him more touches.

Nothing I have said has been to "deny facts" and I take personal offense to you saying I am "acting like an ESPN ditto.head to denigrate TT", whatever that is. I have my own opinions based on what I've seen.

Like them or not, the stats don't lie. If anything, the stats are the facts that contradict what is your opinion. And there are only a small number of people out there right now that believe Tebow will ever be a really good starting NFL QB, and I don't think any of them are NFL GMs or coaches.

I haven't given up on Tebow. I still think he'll have another chance to show a team what he can do. But I think the task for him has gotten much harder. Instead of coming is as the #2 QB, I think he'll probably be brought in as the #3 or #4 option and have to fight hard just to make a roster. He's going to really have to wow somebody to see much playing time. I for one hope he does that, but I don't have particularly high expectations. Sometimes that's when a guy like Tebow excels.

You are more than entitled to disagree.

[ChartsandGrafs]

Originally Posted by atlantagator86

Do you really honestly think that NFL teams, which are all businesses who will do ANYTHING to make money, and are willing to let a guy like Ray Lewis pay nothing for what he was almost surely involved in and gave Michael Vick a second chance, have all gotten together and conspired to keep Tebow from being successful?!?!

Are modern professional sports leagues truly just business ventures only, or might they serve another purpose beyond the profit motive, like social control?

Before you start laughing off such a suggestion, consider a well-known historical precedent:

Rome’s working class, the plebeians had little individual power. Grouped together, however, they became a Roman mob and had to be handled carefully...

...Some plebeians, who were doing reasonably well, might try to save enough money to join the equestrian class. For many, however, life was a daily struggle.

But although individual plebeians had little power, there were a lot of them. In bad times, or during political unrest, there was always the risk of the Roman ‘mob’ rioting or rebelling against the upper classes.

The Emperor Augustus was well aware of this risk and was keen to keep the poorest plebeians happy enough and reasonably well fed so that they would not riot. He began the system of state bribery that the writer Juvenal described as ‘bread and circuses’.

Free grain and controlled food prices meant that plebeians could not starve, while free entertainment – such as chariot races and gladiators in amphitheaters and the Circus Maximus – meant that they would not get bored and restless. Bribery it may have been, but it often worked.

http://www.pbs.org/empires/romans/empire/plebians.html

I don't know if Spurffelbow833 was going in that direction or not, but Tebow is one of the most vocal and recognizable Christians in America today, and there might be more to his NFL blackballing than just won-loss records and monetary concerns.

[Spurffelbow833]

secret agreement or cooperation especially for an illegal or deceitful purpose

Especially, as in not exclusively. Social ostracism and professional blacklisting, especially of an informal nature, are perfectly legal. I'm not talking about Roger Goodell issuing a secret memo to all the owners and GM's. I'm talking about how fishy it is that Tebow isn't wanted at all by anybody with nearly 100 roster spots available.

[TheRaid]

Atlanta

Don't lose any more sleep over it. I haven't lost any. I hardly care about this issue. But it is apparently your passionate mission to correct everyone who thinks Tebow actually did something in Denver. Had T not been there, that team finishes in the top 2 or 3 of the draft position. I am late to the argument. My gave comment was after yours not before it. If you want to be offended then go ahead. You desire it. There is nothing but one's self involvment when it come to being offended on a message board or with strangers, and it usually comes from one's own self-esteem issues along with pride and self-righteousness about something they think or believe. If it were not for ESPN you would would not be on here discussing it in the manner you are. I have zero doubt about that. I have no such worries about message board comments. I am more worried about cancer in my family and raising kids who lost their mom to it and are living with us now. That is what really matters so you should gain some perspective for yourself. This is not my argument or fight as I did not start it. But it is your revisioning and it is incorrect. I hope you have nothing more important to worry about in your life. Truly I do.

[whitelakegator]

Bottom line...is a team's record 100% because of a QB? No.

Are a QBs stats pretty much a result of a QBs play? Yes.

I honestly believe if Tebow hadn't laid that huge stinker vs the Chiefs and shown he could play well in the clutch, he may have gotten another year in Denver. But going 6-22 for 60 yards with the division on the line was the straw that broke the camel's back. They only ended up BACKING into the playoffs. Too many things went Denver's way last year...a lot of luck. You cannot win consistently in the NFL with a sub 50% completion QB. You can't. Just look at Denver's 1-4 record to close out their average season. 9-9 or something. Too many people want to gloss over his terrible stats and just look at his "record" which is a function of the whole TEAM. How about that FG kicker? You don't think he had just as much to do with it? The defense?

Yeah, it was all about Tebow and his 45% completions.

[Speedofsand]

Originally Posted by whitelakegator

Just look at Denver's 1-4 record to close out their average season.
Yeah, it was all about Tebow and his 45% completions.

Maybe if Decker had not been injured and Tebow had more than one guy who could catch, his % would've been higher down the stretch.
...................................

As for NYJ, who thinks McElroy played better than Tebow could have when Greg was getting 11 sacks, an int and a fumble in one game? Oooooh but Greg was 58% in the loss. What difference did it make?

[atlantagator86]

Originally Posted by TheRaid

Atlanta

Don't lose any more sleep over it. I haven't lost any. I hardly care about this issue. But it is apparently your passionate mission to correct everyone who thinks Tebow actually did something in Denver. Had T not been there, that team finishes in the top 2 or 3 of the draft position. I am late to the argument. My gave comment was after yours not before it. If you want to be offended then go ahead. You desire it. There is nothing but one's self involvment when it come to being offended on a message board or with strangers, and it usually comes from one's own self-esteem issues along with pride and self-righteousness about something they think or believe. If it were not for ESPN you would would not be on here discussing it in the manner you are. I have zero doubt about that. I have no such worries about message board comments. I am more worried about cancer in my family and raising kids who lost their mom to it and are living with us now. That is what really matters so you should gain some perspective for yourself. This is not my argument or fight as I did not start it. But it is your revisioning and it is incorrect. I hope you have nothing more important to worry about in your life. Truly I do.

HAHAHAHA! Actually, it sounds to me like maybe you are losing sleep over it! I seem to have struck a nerve with you! Oh, and thanks so much for the life coaching!

[atlantagator86]

Originally Posted by Speedofsand

As for NYJ, who thinks McElroy played better than Tebow could have when Greg was getting 11 sacks, an int and a fumble in one game? Oooooh but Greg was 58% in the loss. What difference did it make?

I absolutely agree that McElroy stunk it up! He wasn't able to capitalize on his chances either. Sanchez, McElroy and Tebow all played pretty poorly this year. And McElroy probably isn't going to be on the Jets roster next year either and very possibly might have played his last NFL season. More than likely, Sanchez will come back as a second stringer on the Jets next year only because of how much they're paying him and because they can't unload his salary.

[whitelakegator]

Originally Posted by Speedofsand

Maybe if Decker had not been injured and Tebow had more than one guy who could catch, his % would've been higher down the stretch.
...................................

As for NYJ, who thinks McElroy played better than Tebow could have when Greg was getting 11 sacks, an int and a fumble in one game? Oooooh but Greg was 58% in the loss. What difference did it make?

I am curious as to why you didn't respond to the whole post and not just specific items?

Is it possible that Tebow has an extremely difficult time reading defenses and that is why he has trouble?

[atlantagator86]

Originally Posted by Spurffelbow833

Especially, as in not exclusively. Social ostracism and professional blacklisting, especially of an informal nature, are perfectly legal. I'm not talking about Roger Goodell issuing a secret memo to all the owners and GM's. I'm talking about how fishy it is that Tebow isn't wanted at all by anybody with nearly 100 roster spots available.

Fair enough. If that's what you meant and that's what you choose to believe is going on, than I can accept that. I don't agree with it, but we don't have to agree and I don't think any of us are going to change each other's minds here.

I only questioned you on it because I think there seem to be a lot of people on here who believe that there has been a real orchestrated effort or conspiracy on the part of NFL owners, GMs and coaches to make sure Tebow never makes it. And that may be exactly what you believe too. But when words like collusion get thrown out there, that really takes it to another level in my opinion.