The Rare Small Forward

[themistocles]

Now, I realize that there are far more outstanding small forwards coming out of high school than Big Men, but, for some reason, Billy D's gators almost always seem to have a shortage at this position.

Starting from his first recruiting classes (not sure I recall all):
Major Parker - not a great 3-point shooter
Mike Miller - a 6'8" kid who could play anywhere from the 1 to the 4.
Matt Walsh - a solid SF who could also play SG.
Christian Drejer - great prospect - but never materialized
Corey Brewer - 3-year starter and lock-down defender (inconsistent from 3)
David Huertas - Left after his frosh year to become Ole Miss's leading scorer
Chandler Parsons - Took a couple of years to develop
Casey Prather - Took a couple of years to develop
Brad Beal - Small, but a strong rebounder, and, unfortunately, one-and-done
Walker - May or may not ever play much
DFS - Future


So, despite the fact that there are perhaps 2-3 times as many quality small forwards available each year, Billy D has shown a general lack of interest in the position, and, in perhaps 2004, largely began recruiting combo-forwards, like Werner, rather than true SF or PFs.

Just thought I would comment on that given that tonight the Gators face Tex A&M, a team with a stellar SF, without Prather, and with only 3 guys to play the 4-5 (Yeguete, Murphy, Young), which likely means that a true guard, like Wilbekin, Rosario or Frazier, will have to handle that position defensively.

[GothamGator]

I really think this is really just a factor of the last few years and not a trend over Billy's whole tenure.

[gatordd]

Why not recruit combo forwards? More versatility is never a bad thing... Plus with Donovan's system you can always bump a guard down to the 3 if scoring is the issue... I love the way Donovan builds his squads. I think losing our stretch 4 in Murphy will be the hardest thing for us to overcome, next season.

[InstiGATOR1]

Originally Posted by themistocles

Now, I realize that there are far more outstanding small forwards coming out of high school than Big Men, but, for some reason, Billy D's gators almost always seem to have a shortage at this position.

Starting from his first recruiting classes (not sure I recall all):
Major Parker - not a great 3-point shooter
Mike Miller - a 6'8" kid who could play anywhere from the 1 to the 4.
Matt Walsh - a solid SF who could also play SG.
Christian Drejer - great prospect - but never materialized
Corey Brewer - 3-year starter and lock-down defender (inconsistent from 3)
David Huertas - Left after his frosh year to become Ole Miss's leading scorer
Chandler Parsons - Took a couple of years to develop
Casey Prather - Took a couple of years to develop
Brad Beal - Small, but a strong rebounder, and, unfortunately, one-and-done
Walker - May or may not ever play much
DFS - Future


So, despite the fact that there are perhaps 2-3 times as many quality small forwards available each year, Billy D has shown a general lack of interest in the position, and, in perhaps 2004, largely began recruiting combo-forwards, like Werner, rather than true SF or PFs.

Just thought I would comment on that given that tonight the Gators face Tex A&M, a team with a stellar SF, without Prather, and with only 3 guys to play the 4-5 (Yeguete, Murphy, Young), which likely means that a true guard, like Wilbekin, Rosario or Frazier, will have to handle that position defensively.

Wow, I look at the same data and see just the opposite. Donovan appears to me to treat the SF position as the most important position in recruiting. I think of it and sometimes call it Donovan's mismatch position. That is he is always seeking to find that 6'7"+ guy create a mismatch at this position. The problem is that while there are fewer guys out there as heights go up as you say, there are more bigs than guys 6'8" or 6'9" who have the skill set to play SF, ie a shot from the arc, the foot speed to defend the position, the ball handling skills to play the position.

Then I look at UF's SF under Donovan:

1. Miller, an NBA rookie of the year when he might have been a JR at UF.
2. Drejer, a talented but injury star crossed guy who was in such demand he could go play pro in the middle of a UF season.
3. Brewer, a very high NBA pick.
4. Parsons, a second round NBA pick who has become the steal of his draft.

UF has lacked that mismatch 3 the last two years. Some of it has been that UF ended up with too many guards who play the same position, with Beal, Boynton and Rosario, but required playing time. I suspect that when Rosario was brought on, the thought was that Boynton would not be a 4 year guy or that either Boynton or Rosario could play PG. Also some of it is that Prather due to various reasons including injuries has not be able to grab hold of the position.

You are correct it seems next year UF with Finney-Smith will get back to having a mismatch SF as is the Donovan style. I think see the gaps in having a player of this style as evidence of how rare the mismatch 3 is and how tough it is to find on in recruiting.

[rserina]

Since the two and three are virtually the same in our offense, it stands to reason that we wouldn't recruit the small forward "position," but players who can fit in our system, with a premium placed on versatility. So, a "small forward" isn't very interesting, but a 2-3 with the handle and/or shot to run our ball screen action is. We don't necessarily recruit combo forwards so much as we do envision the traditional small forward as someone who will play the four in our system. We aren't terribly enamored of post up threes like you see in the NBA. That doesn't really fit with our scheme. If a guy can space the floor with his spot up jumper or make good post entry passes in the high-low game or rebound the weakside glass or finish in transition or off the pick and roll, then those things are much better used at the four for us than at the three. Parsons is really the lone exception to that rule under Donovan, in part because we had precious few wings at that stage in our program (he obviously started out as a four his freshman year) and in part because he could run the ball screen action.

On Finney-Smith, I still see him as a combo guy. He played the four at VT and he improved his perimeter jumper appreciably. We may not need him as much next year, but once Yeguete and Prather graduate, I suspect he sees time there.

[gatordd]

Originally Posted by rserina

Since the two and three are virtually the same in our offense, it stands to reason that we wouldn't recruit the small forward "position," but players who can fit in our system, with a premium placed on versatility. So, a "small forward" isn't very interesting, but a 2-3 with the handle and/or shot to run our ball screen action is. We don't necessarily recruit combo forwards so much as we do envision the traditional small forward as someone who will play the four in our system. We aren't terribly enamored of post up threes like you see in the NBA. That doesn't really fit with our scheme. If a guy can space the floor with his spot up jumper or make good post entry passes in the high-low game or rebound the weakside glass or finish in transition or off the pick and roll, then those things are much better used at the four for us than at the three. Parsons is really the lone exception to that rule under Donovan, in part because we had precious few wings at that stage in our program (he obviously started out as a four his freshman year) and in part because he could run the ball screen action.

On Finney-Smith, I still see him as a combo guy. He played the four at VT and he improved his perimeter jumper appreciably. We may not need him as much next year, but once Yeguete and Prather graduate, I suspect he sees time there.

Great chance DFS is a lotto pick at the 3 next year playing with Hill

[rserina]

Originally Posted by gatordd

Great chance DFS is a lotto pick at the 3 next year playing with Hill

You think he is that good of a prospect at this stage? Granted, at VT he was playing out of position, but he seemed to have a long way to go. Brewer is a similar player, but a better defender and athlete, and he wasn't close to the lottery after his sophomore year. Most were projecting him mid- to late-first had he come out. That doesn't even count the fact that the 2014 draft will be absolutely loaded.

[InstiGATOR1]

Originally Posted by rserina

Since the two and three are virtually the same in our offense,

I think the 2 and the 3 are completely different position at UF. I see the 1 and the 2 as somewhat similar and sometimes I think too similar to UF's coaches who seem to want lead guards at the one more than PGs.. I see the 4 and the 5 as very similar almost interchangable in UF's system. The 3 is the position that is different in my view.

Maybe it is more different on defense than on offense. Even on offense, Donovan seems to want the mismatch 3 to be the guy who can get his own shot in end game, end of half and late in the shot clock situation.

Sure Donovan can always go 3 guard and play guys 6'8" plus guys like Miller, Brewer who is a tad shorter, Parsons etc at the 4, but why give up the mismatch at the 3? I think that is Donovan's view too.

[rserina]

Originally Posted by InstiGATOR1

I think the 2 and the 3 are completely different position at UF. I see the 1 and the 2 as somewhat similar and sometimes I think too similar to UF's coaches who seem to want lead guards at the one more than PGs.. I see the 4 and the 5 as very similar almost interchangable in UF's system. The 3 is the position that is different in my view.

Maybe it is more different on defense than on offense. Even on offense, Donovan seems to want the mismatch 3 to be the guy who can get his own shot in end game, end of half and late in the shot clock situation.

Sure Donovan can always go 3 guard and play guys 6'8" plus guys like Miller, Brewer who is a tad shorter, Parsons etc at the 4, but why give up the mismatch at the 3? I think that is Donovan's view too.

What responsibilities do you see that are different at the two and the three? Both space the floor in the half-court from the wing/corner. Both get catch and shoot opportunities off baseline and stagger screens. Both run the high ball screens. The only ostensible difference is on the defensive end, where you want a bigger guy on the floor depending upon the matchup and of course playing one of the wings in our 2-3.

The post positions aren't terribly similar, either. The five is primarily a low block guy who seals his man and posts up or sets baseline screens. The four is a high post guy who faces up from the elbow or runs the pick and pops high. Both run the pick and rolls and set the high ball screens, so that is similar, but not generally.

In Donovan's offense, the 1 and 4 have been the most pivotal over the years precisely because wants to space the floor with a big who can shoot and because that point guard has to be able to create off the ball screen when the shot clock winds down. But the wings are largely interchangeable, at least offensively.

That we have point guards who can shoot just means that it is an essential skill for our high ball screen, not that the requirements of the two positions are the same.

[MadduxFanII]

It seems like Billy likes to have one guy who sort of "freelances," for lack of a better word. Someone with the athleticism and flexibility to do a little bit of everything.

Brewer's the best example of this. I'm impressed when thinking back to the championship teams how well the pieces fit together. It helped that the pieces were exceptionally talented, but all the skill sets matched. We had two capable big men who drew double teams, and could pass out of them with ease. And we had two lethal three-point shooters who could take those inside passes and punish the opposition for their double teams.

That even worked with the weaknesses. Green and Humphrey lacked the size and athleticism of truly elite guards, but when an opposing guard blew by those two they had to deal with two great shot blockers on the inside.

Brewer's the one guy who didn't really fit a "role." He was the Do-Everything guy. The other team had a great offensive player between 6-3 and 6-9? Slap Corey on him. Needed a little bit of an improvised flourish, a bit of chaos? Brewer was that guy. You had four guys who fit together like a Swiss watch, and then Brewer who held everything together despite not being a truly great "fit," per se.

A guy like Prather is sort of like that, if not to the same level. Parsons was similar, if in a different way. We didn't have anyone who could really do that consistently last year. Maybe Finney-Smith will be the freelancer next season.

[rserina]

And what's interesting, Maddux, is that the national title teams never really fit what we wanted to do offensively. Noah couldn't space the floor with his shot or post up. Brewer couldn't hit his shots from the arc and turned the ball over too much on the ball screens. Humphrey couldn't run a pick and roll. Green struggled scoring once he got inside twenty feet.

Yet somehow, they found a way to be unbelievably efficient. Green and Noah were a dynamic pick and roll combo (Randolph Morris is still having nightmares about Noah dunking on him at Rupp). Noah developed that nifty little dribble drive game from the elbow. Both Horford and Noah created tons of threes for others off skip passes against doubles. Green hit the step back three off the high ball screen like no defender had ever seen us run the play before. Humphrey just camped on the wing for threes or would take a dribble handoff from five feet beyond the top of the circle and nail it. And Brewer yo-yo'd his way around the floor to hit circus jumpers and flew down the court for transition dunks. Those guys did not fit the system as well as other incarnations under Donovan, but they brought unique skills to the table, Donovan adapted things to suit them, and the kids bought into them.

[themistocles]

Well, I had sort of hoped this would generate some discussion.

Obviously, I wasn't saying that Billy D didn't recruit SF's well, that would be absurd with Miller, Walsh, Brewer, Parsons, Beal and the current and future ones, I was meerly noting that this position is frequently sort of thin. Perhaps this results from the shortage of mismatch 3s. Perhaps this results from the limit of a mere 13 scholarships, combined with absolute need for PG and Power Forwards if one hopes to have a decent team.

Good discussion and many interesting points made so far.

[tampajack1]

Originally Posted by rserina

And what's interesting, Maddux, is that the national title teams never really fit what we wanted to do offensively. Noah couldn't space the floor with his shot or post up. Brewer couldn't hit his shots from the arc and turned the ball over too much on the ball screens. Humphrey couldn't run a pick and roll. Green struggled scoring once he got inside twenty feet.

Yet somehow, they found a way to be unbelievably efficient. Green and Noah were a dynamic pick and roll combo (Randolph Morris is still having nightmares about Noah dunking on him at Rupp). Noah developed that nifty little dribble drive game from the elbow. Both Horford and Noah created tons of threes for others off skip passes against doubles. Green hit the step back three off the high ball screen like no defender had ever seen us run the play before. Humphrey just camped on the wing for threes or would take a dribble handoff from five feet beyond the top of the circle and nail it. And Brewer yo-yo'd his way around the floor to hit circus jumpers and flew down the court for transition dunks. Those guys did not fit the system as well as other incarnations under Donovan, but they brought unique skills to the table, Donovan adapted things to suit them, and the kids bought into them.

Corey shot around 35% from the 3-point line while at UF, which isn't bad. Also, if I recall, he shot really well from the 3-point line in the 2007 NCAA tournament and ended up being the MVP of the tournament.

[InstiGATOR1]

Originally Posted by rserina

What responsibilities do you see that are different at the two and the three? Both space the floor in the half-court from the wing/corner. Both get catch and shoot opportunities off baseline and stagger screens. Both run the high ball screens. The only ostensible difference is on the defensive end, where you want a bigger guy on the floor depending upon the matchup and of course playing one of the wings in our 2-3.

The post positions aren't terribly similar, either. The five is primarily a low block guy who seals his man and posts up or sets baseline screens. The four is a high post guy who faces up from the elbow or runs the pick and pops high. Both run the pick and rolls and set the high ball screens, so that is similar, but not generally.

In Donovan's offense, the 1 and 4 have been the most pivotal over the years precisely because wants to space the floor with a big who can shoot and because that point guard has to be able to create off the ball screen when the shot clock winds down. But the wings are largely interchangeable, at least offensively.

That we have point guards who can shoot just means that it is an essential skill for our high ball screen, not that the requirements of the two positions are the same.

The differences I see are:

1. UF asks the 3 to be the guy who can get his own shot. The two is more of spot of shooting guy.

2. UF asks the 3 to rebound while UF asks the three to balance the floor defensively.

3. Against certain zones the 3 is the guy who takes the pass at the FT line and takes the shot or makes the pass. The height needed for this means the two guard does not generally do this.

Those seem like pretty big differences to me.

I do agree at times, well really with Bonner and Murphy, UF has used a stretch 4 and that can allow UF to get by with a smaller 3. Looking at Donovan's recruiting and coaching history, it seems to me he does not prefer this. UF has had 4s and 5s who hit the intermediate jumper. Tyus did at the 4. Horford did at the 5.

[ufgator4ever]

Please. Miller, brewer and parsons all were good for college level and are in nba. Drejer and werner were busts, but they happen.
Sad to see there are still drejer apologists. That guy deserves bigger F than calathes as a gator.

[rserina]

Originally Posted by tampajack1

Corey shot around 35% from the 3-point line while at UF, which isn't bad. Also, if I recall, he shot really well from the 3-point line in the 2007 NCAA tournament and ended up being the MVP of the tournament.

He was very effective spotting up for threes on the break, in part opposing transition defenses were so concerned about him filling the lane and finishing. In the halfcourt, though, he was not terribly good.

[rserina]

Originally Posted by InstiGATOR1

1. UF asks the 3 to be the guy who can get his own shot. The two is more of spot of shooting guy.

That is ordinarily the one, otherwise the three is the guy who would take the ball at the end of possessions. The two and the three run basically the same stuff in the halfcourt.

Originally Posted by InstiGATOR1

2. UF asks the 3 to rebound while UF asks the three to balance the floor defensively.

Very much so.

Originally Posted by InstiGATOR1

3. Against certain zones the 3 is the guy who takes the pass at the FT line and takes the shot or makes the pass. The height needed for this means the two guard does not generally do this.

Actually, our four does it often, too. Lee and Noah were very good at it. Parsons was better than Tyus, so we had him flash to the high post. Same last year with Beal, though Murphy and Yeguete did it pretty often, as well. You seldom see a two break the zone because they ordinarily don't have the height to offer you a big enough target or to make a pass back out of the high post.

Originally Posted by InstiGATOR1

I do agree at times, well really with Bonner and Murphy, UF has used a stretch 4 and that can allow UF to get by with a smaller 3. Looking at Donovan's recruiting and coaching history, it seems to me he does not prefer this. UF has had 4s and 5s who hit the intermediate jumper. Tyus did at the 4. Horford did at the 5.

Tyus hit his mid ranger jumper because he didn't have a three pointer. Horford was supposed to be the four his sophomore year, but Noah had a much better low post game than Noah. Their junior seasons they switched off far more and I think the majority of Horford's mid range looks came from the high post.

Stolt, Wright, Bonner, Werner, now Murphy: that is roughly eleven of Donovan's seventeen seasons with a four who could hit from the arc. But I don't see the connection between a stretch four and a smaller three. A stretch four and a larger three are not mutually exclusive.

[InstiGATOR1]

1. Actually when Donovan has his prototypical 3, it is Miller or Drejer or Brewer or Parsons taking that shot. Heck Miller and Brewer hit the two most famous shots in UF history at the end of games.

2. Stolt was a stretch 4 Donovan inherited. Wright made about a half a 3 per game in his UF career. He took few so some seasons he shot well and others poorly. When you get to arguing Werner was a stretch 4, you know you are reaching. Werner was a 3 who was forced to play 4 and who made 30.4% of his attempts from the arc for his career. So Bonner and Murphy have been UF's true stretch 4s Donovan recruited to play in his system.

[regurgigator]

Originally Posted by ufgator4ever

Please. Miller, brewer and parsons all were good for college level and are in nba. Drejer and werner were busts, but they happen.
Sad to see there are still drejer apologists. That guy deserves bigger F than calathes as a gator.

I was pretty disgusted when Drejer bailed on the team, but it was fans like you that ultimately made me decide to give him a pass.

It was amazing to me how much the fans hated Drejer before he left despite the fact that he led the team in assists (with some of the most beautiful passing I've seen by a Gator), was 2nd in rebounding, and was 3rd in scoring. I suppose that once Donovan said that Drejer was the most talented player he ever recruited, the fans weren't going to be satisfied unless Drejer scored and soared like Michael Jordan (injuries that robbed Drejer of his leaping ability be damned).

Though not as talented, Werner was no bust either; and I suppose you hold Calathes personally responsible for his undermanned teams not making the NCAA Tourney.



Huertas is the one player on the OP's list that I didn't mind seeing leave UF early. Good riddance to an inconsistent volume shooter who had little else of worth in his game IMO.

James White isn't on the list, but while I wasn't exactly happy when he left, I didn't really shed a tear either.

[trufloridagator]

Originally Posted by tampajack1

Corey shot around 35% from the 3-point line while at UF, which isn't bad. Also, if I recall, he shot really well from the 3-point line in the 2007 NCAA tournament and ended up being the MVP of the tournament.

37.1%.

He was nasty vs UCLA and tOSU from 3 in ATL. The ones against tOSU were very timely too. He and Lee crushed any little run they had.

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