I think even MadGator will concede....

[akaGatorhoops]

Originally Posted by madgator

Did the '06 team score more ppg than last year's team? I don't have time to look it up right now, but I don't think thats the case.

p.s. -- Yes.

2005-2006: 78.3ppg
2011-2012: 75.9ppg

Ok... now I'm done!

[tommyuf21]

Originally Posted by akaGatorhoops

I am done.

go gators!

He hates him because he is short. He was embarrassed that we had a short guy playing for us.

It's really that simple.

[madgator]

Originally Posted by akaGatorhoops

p.s. -- Yes.

2005-2006: 78.3ppg
2011-2012: 75.9ppg

Ok... now I'm done!

I said that I wasn't sure.....just remember that last year's team was high scoring. I believe at one point around mid-season the team was averaging 80+ points a game. Wasn't challenging, just wasn't sure where it ended up

[madgator]

Originally Posted by tommyuf21

He hates him because he is short. He was embarrassed that we had a short guy playing for us.

It's really that simple.

yeah because Taurean Green at 5'10 and Eddie Shannon who was maybe 5'10 were absolute giants

[madgator]

Originally Posted by akaGatorhoops

Mad,

With all due respect.... you are getting killed here.
And as we have discussed before, I respect and even agree with some of your opinions regarding Walker. But for whatever reason, you stray off his legitimate faults.... and attempt to undercut his strengths and achievements. This suggests some sort of bias and agenda.
Suggesting that the all-time assist leader was the "worst passer", is a losing and silly battle. And a battle you have lost on every front in this thread.

You are entrenched in your position, yet I stubbornly bring the topic to the table time and again.

I am done.

go gators!

I never once undercut a strength.

one of the results of Walkers out of control play were passes that were well off quality receiving position. Walker was never a point guard that came across as making the game easier for his team mates. As a point guard he was always a square peg being jammed in a round hole.

That is my only point. I just giving examples as to why I say that.

the only thing that they counter with is that he is the all-time leader in assists. to that I say that achievement is mitigated being that he is also the all-time leader in minutes.

I don't see how Vernon Macklin's FG% or the fact that Walker's assist per game as the starting point guard being .1 less than Taurean Green's "kills" me on this topic.


I'm accused of being entrenched in my position.....but have you read some of the defenses of Walker and the reasonings why his stats weren't better?

Did you see that in two posts someone went from saying that Walker would've had more assists if it wasn't for all of Macklins misses to then saying that Macklin shot a great FG% because of Walker's passes.

Did you miss that little gem?

I know you said you are done....but I would LOVE to hear your thoughts on that bit. Considering that this is about as far as one could possibly "move the goal posts."

[NorthCaptivaGator]

Originally Posted by madgator

Walker was one of the worst I have seen as a Gator point guard in terms of both setting up team mates and giving passes that were received in the "right spots" for shot rhythm. .

You said the above on page 3 of this thread. I have shown you, repeatedly, with facts, how silly the above statement is. I will leave it at that.

[akaGatorhoops]

Originally Posted by madgator

I never once undercut a strength.

one of the results of Walkers out of control play were passes that were well off quality receiving position. Walker was never a point guard that came across as making the game easier for his team mates. As a point guard he was always a square peg being jammed in a round hole.

That is my only point. I just giving examples as to why I say that.

the only thing that they counter with is that he is the all-time leader in assists. to that I say that achievement is mitigated being that he is also the all-time leader in minutes.

I don't see how Vernon Macklin's FG% or the fact that Walker's assist per game as the starting point guard being .1 less than Taurean Green's "kills" me on this topic.


I'm accused of being entrenched in my position.....but have you read some of the defenses of Walker and the reasonings why his stats weren't better?

Did you see that in two posts someone went from saying that Walker would've had more assists if it wasn't for all of Macklins misses to then saying that Macklin shot a great FG% because of Walker's passes.

Did you miss that little gem?

I know you said you are done....but I would LOVE to hear your thoughts on that bit. Considering that this is about as far as one could possibly "move the goal posts."

Of course you undercut his strengths and achievements. You stated that he was the "worst" passing point guard you have watched. That is an incredible statement considering he holds the all-time assist record. Now, I know you like to minimize that achievement by attributing it only to the amount of games that he played, but we have seen that Erv fairs very favorably on an per-game assist basis to some of the top point guards in our program's history.
When faced with such information, you undercut it... first by suggesting the comparing guards had less talent, only to reverse fields and suddenly state that the comparable (Green) had "too much" talent.
I asked before, but it is worth repeating: Do you not find it telling that your benchmark in this arguement is possibly the best guard in program history? Shouldn't the "worst passing pg" have a much lower level of comparison?

Look, I am not suggesting Erv was the ideal point guard or was without flaws. Far from it. But your repeated outlandish statements, such as "the worst passing gator point guard", suggest you are operating from a postion of bias and will go to any length to defend your agenda--- even if you must defy facts.

Also, you have been presented with far more than mere personal achievements --- but, of course, you disregard those. You dismiss the fact that UF returned to the NCAA Tourney for 3 straight years under his direction at pg, and advanced to the Elite Eight twice. Instead, you focus on the losses and attirubte successes to teammates. It is amazing to me that a person of seemingly sound basketball knowledge could place such little importance on the role of a pg --- that you think a team could achieve the level of success Florida did inspite of its "worst passing" pg.

I suspect that deep down, you know you are wrong on many fronts in this discussion... but are either too proud or too stubborn to admit that.

There are many observations you are correct about, but as I said earlier... for whatever reason, you prefer to veer off those and fight unwinnable battles --- as you did here. You seem to hate any priase of Walker and feel the need to vehemently argue against it, even --- and perhaps, especially --- when you have no ground to stand on.

[YakYak]

Happy Birthday Erving Walker!

[madgator]

Originally Posted by akaGatorhoops

Of course you undercut his strengths and achievements. You stated that he was the "worst" passing point guard you have watched. That is an incredible statement considering he holds the all-time assist record. Now, I know you like to minimize that achievement by attributing it only to the amount of games that he played, but we have seen that Erv fairs very favorably on an per-game assist basis to some of the top point guards in our program's history.
When faced with such information, you undercut it... first by suggesting the comparing guards had less talent, only to reverse fields and suddenly state that the comparable (Green) had "too much" talent.
I asked before, but it is worth repeating: Do you not find it telling that your benchmark in this arguement is possibly the best guard in program history? Shouldn't the "worst passing pg" have a much lower level of comparison?

Look, I am not suggesting Erv was the ideal point guard or was without flaws. Far from it. But your repeated outlandish statements, such as "the worst passing gator point guard", suggest you are operating from a postion of bias and will go to any length to defend your agenda--- even if you must defy facts.

Also, you have been presented with far more than mere personal achievements --- but, of course, you disregard those. You dismiss the fact that UF returned to the NCAA Tourney for 3 straight years under his direction at pg, and advanced to the Elite Eight twice. Instead, you focus on the losses and attirubte successes to teammates. It is amazing to me that a person of seemingly sound basketball knowledge could place such little importance on the role of a pg --- that you think a team could achieve the level of success Florida did inspite of its "worst passing" pg.

I suspect that deep down, you know you are wrong on many fronts in this discussion... but are either too proud or too stubborn to admit that.

There are many observations you are correct about, but as I said earlier... for whatever reason, you prefer to veer off those and fight unwinnable battles --- as you did here. You seem to hate any priase of Walker and feel the need to vehemently argue against it, even --- and perhaps, especially --- when you have no ground to stand on.

the quote

extremely misleading stat. Walker was one of the worst I have seen as a Gator point guard in terms of both setting up team mates and giving passes that were received in the "right spots" for shot rhythm.

Read more: http://www.gatorcountry.com/swampgas...#ixzz2ID48CNJL


"one of the worst"

Green is not "the benchmark." just the comparative example that got focused on as the discussion evolved.

but if you need a greater example. my point of reference goes back to the mid-'80s. I can think of maybe 1 that is worse by default.


going back to Green. my point was never that the surrounding talent HELPED him statistically. It was always that it more than likely hurt him in that regard. I also gave supporting statistics to illustrate this.


Don't get me wrong. I have my issues with Green as well. I probably wouldn't pick him as "my #1 gator pg." Extremely poor defensively. Yes, much worse than Walker and it's not even close. See a fair Walker compliment.

but man Green could manage a game. I can think of maybe less than 5 mistakes he made off the top of my head in the 2 years he ran the team.

[akaGatorhoops]

Originally Posted by madgator

the quote

extremely misleading stat. Walker was one of the worst I have seen as a Gator point guard in terms of both setting up team mates and giving passes that were received in the "right spots" for shot rhythm.

Read more: http://www.gatorcountry.com/swampgas...#ixzz2ID48CNJL


"one of the worst"

Green is not "the benchmark." just the comparative example that got focused on as the discussion evolved.

but if you need a greater example. my point of reference goes back to the mid-'80s. I can think of maybe 1 that is worse by default.


going back to Green. my point was never that the surrounding talent HELPED him statistically. It was always that it more than likely hurt him in that regard. I also gave supporting statistics to illustrate this.


Don't get me wrong. I have my issues with Green as well. I probably wouldn't pick him as "my #1 gator pg." Extremely poor defensively. Yes, much worse than Walker and it's not even close. See a fair Walker compliment.

but man Green could manage a game. I can think of maybe less than 5 mistakes he made off the top of my head in the 2 years he ran the team.

ok... we are getting into semantics with your phrasing here, as "one of the worst" is still an absurd contention, imo.... and would not change any of my points or arguements within this thread.
Also... I understood very clearly what you were saying about TG. As I pointed out, in the case of other guards compared to Erv--- you suggested their numbers were hurt by inferior talent. Then, when presented with Green as a comparison--- you reversed fields and stated that Green's numbers were likely hurt by talent that was too capable. It served to point out that no matter what is presented to you, you will spin it in a direction to support your silly contention.
Alright... now I'm done!

[madgator]

Originally Posted by akaGatorhoops

ok... we are getting into semantics with your phrasing here, as "one of the worst" is still an absurd contention, imo.... and would not change any of my points or arguements within this thread.
Also... I understood very clearly what you were saying about TG. As I pointed out, in the case of other guards compared to Erv--- you suggested their numbers were hurt by inferior talent. Then, when presented with Green as a comparison--- you reversed fields and stated that Green's numbers were likely hurt by talent that was too capable. It served to point out that no matter what is presented to you, you will spin it in a direction to support your silly contention.
Alright... now I'm done!

is everything definite?

if I make a comment that abilities of team mates can effect the stats of a player. isn't it assumed that it could be both positive and negative. That every set of circumstances contribute to the outcome.

where a guy like Eddie Shannon might be effected negatively by having a really poor team around him for 3 of his 4 years. greens circumstance of having not only extremely talented team mates but ones that were multi-faceted could also in turn hurt his stats.

this is not logically inconsistent.

what is not only logically but factually inconsistent is saying that Walker's stats were hurt by all of Macklins misses and then say Macklin's great FG% was created because of Walker.

That is the very definition of intellectual dishonesty.

[akaGatorhoops]

Originally Posted by madgator

is everything definite?

if I make a comment that abilities of team mates can effect the stats of a player. isn't it assumed that it could be both positive and negative. That every set of circumstances contribute to the outcome.

where a guy like Eddie Shannon might be effected negatively by having a really poor team around him for 3 of his 4 years. greens circumstance of having not only extremely talented team mates but ones that were multi-faceted could also in turn hurt his stats.

this is not logically inconsistent.

what is not only logically but factually inconsistent is saying that Walker's stats were hurt by all of Macklins misses and then say Macklin's great FG% was created because of Walker.

That is the very definition of intellectual dishonesty.

By suggesting some comparable guards did not have enough, while another had too much.... suggests that we would have to virtually replicate the exact circumstances of erv's career in order for you to acknowledge his passing achievements.
You have been provided a number of facts for each contention you have made, but counter everyone with a new argument. That is why I am signing off the debate.... Though I think I made the promise several poss ago, and even a season or two ago before that! Lol!

[madgator]

Originally Posted by akaGatorhoops

By suggesting some comparable guards did not have enough, while another had too much.... suggests that we would have to virtually replicate the exact circumstances of erv's career in order for you to acknowledge his passing achievements.
You have been provided a number of facts for each contention you have made, but counter everyone with a new argument. That is why I am signing off the debate.... Though I think I made the promise several poss ago, and even a season or two ago before that! Lol!

my point has always been that his assist record is more the result of games and minutes played and I would argue the maximum benefit of circumstances that any Gator PG has had judging from my frame of reference. Which is say 1985 or so through today.

For example of another circumstance. Eddie Shannon average 4.2 assists a game in the 1997-1998 season and for 20 games he played the 2 guard. Eddie even received a HUGE decrease in early season minutes his senior year as he missed the first 5 games as he recovered from his eye surgery. He also played less overall games than because they only made the post-season once during his time there.

and despite the numerous disadvantages, Eddie was still only 50 total assists behind Walker.

[akaGatorhoops]

Again, you are left having to argue that the circumstances aligned so incredibly well, and so remarkably better than all other past players--- that they allowed for "one of the worst" passing guards to break the all-time assist record and rank highly on a per-game assist basis.
It is just an absurd suggestion... yet you cling to it.
Seriously, I'm done.

[madgator]

Originally Posted by akaGatorhoops

Again, you are left having to argue that the circumstances aligned so incredibly well, and so remarkably better than all other past players--- that they allowed for "one of the worst" passing guards to break the all-time assist record and rank highly on a per-game assist basis.
It is just an absurd suggestion... yet you cling to it.
Seriously, I'm done.

it is what it is. fundamentally speaking, the worst PG (not worst player playing PG, but the worst PG from the point of view of the attributes that make a point guard) our program has had in past 30 years is our schools all time assist leader.

Fact is that our assist record, where is it numbers wise is comparitively really low.

if Nick Calathes had stuck around another year it would have at least looked somewhat respectable in the 700s somewhere.