I think even MadGator will concede....

[gatorbogey]

one of the problems is perception. Ewalk followed calathes and green at pg. doubt few would measure up. [UK fans are seeing that right now w/ their current pg. kid's good, but not 'that' good compared to the guys they've had on the court recently].

people tend to collect the data/mistakes that fit their premise and discount other data. so some will be inclined to remember that bad pass, the drive too deep, the slip on a cut and others will remember the good things - the fearless drives and kiss off the glass for the winner, the deep 3, the impeccable pass, etc.

[gatorbogey]

Originally Posted by rserina

You guys are going to be arguing about this in a nursing home one day.

HA!
good one....
and:

[gatordavisl]

Originally Posted by NorthCaptivaGator

Walker is currently 10th all time in assists per game here at the University of Florida, having averaged 3.8 for his career. Take out his Freshman year, when he played the two and he is second, at 4.6 behind only Nick Calathes who averaged 6.28 assists per game in his two years at UF, the second of which he played with Erving Walker at the two. So, the statistics point out that Erving Walker averaged more assists per game as a starting point guard than guys like Ronnie Montgomery (3.87) Vernon Delancy (4.18) Eddie Shannon (4.25) and Taureen Green (3.58). By the way Ronnie Williams played 3900 mins and Eddie Shannon 3600.

So again, the facts contradict your opinion.

Good post. The discussion should have ended here, but as rserina notes, it will continue to the nursing home.
Too bad that a discussion about Erv's ability to break the press devolved into an argument about assists. Again, once the facts were inserted in the discussion, there should have been a concession.

[madgator]

Originally Posted by rserina

You guys are going to be arguing about this in a nursing home one day.

Probably

[madgator]

Originally Posted by akaGatorhoops

no, he was not "cherry picking". you are manipulating the discussion.
he picked the years during which Erv was the starting pg.

again... how do you explain that, as pg, a "poor passer" accounted for more assists per game than did TG?

Taking out Walker's first year when he didn't start at PG, is cherry picking stats. Especially if you are also going to count Green freshman year when he didn't start and averaged 25% less minutes per game than Walker did his freshman year.

During his time as the starting PG, Green averaged 4.2 assist per game. Walker averaged 4.3.

That is the most fair comparison. They were playing about equal minutes both as a the starting PG.


Now, to go back to what has been called the "irrelevant" factor of surrounding talent and how that doesn't quite factor in.

Green had the great fortune or for the purpose of this debate misfortune, of playing with individuals who I consider two of the greatest post passers in college basketball that I have ever seen.

Let's look at the stats. For the sake of a fair comparison. I am going to use 2 years for each players team mates.

Greens sophomore and junior years and Walker junior and senior years. Again, this is only to build the most fair comparison.

Joakim Noah averaged 2.2 assists per game and Al Horford averaged 2.1 assists per game

Corey Brewer averaged 3.1 assists per game and Lee Humphrey 1.6.

Let's look at Walker's team mates.

Macklin averaged 0.8 assists per game. Tyus 0.6
Young averaged 1.1 and Eric Murphy 0.8

Chandler Parsons averaged 3.2
Brad Beal 2.2

Kenny Boynton 2.7 (over the two years)


So Taurean Green's team mates over those two years averaged 9 assists per game

Erving Walker's 7.3 and 6.8 for his junior and senior seasons.


This tells me that the skill sets of Green's team mates were much more diverse which means that a pass from Green to a team mate had basically a 22% more chance of leading to an assist by a team mate.

Like I said earlier, the team dynamics were considerably different which gave Walker a greater chance of getting assists throughout the game.


I know I said this earlier; team dynamics, surrounding talent etc. The stats prove my point.

is it irrelevant?

[NorthCaptivaGator]

Originally Posted by madgator

Taking out Walker's first year when he didn't start at PG, is cherry picking stats. Especially if you are also going to count Green freshman year when he didn't start and averaged 25% less minutes per game than Walker did his freshman year.

During his time as the starting PG, Green averaged 4.2 assist per game. Walker averaged 4.3.

That is the most fair comparison. They were playing about equal minutes both as a the starting PG.

Now, to go back to what has been called the "irrelevant" factor of surrounding talent and how that doesn't quite factor in.

Green had the great fortune or for the purpose of this debate misfortune, of playing with individuals who I consider two of the greatest post passers in college basketball that I have ever seen.

Let's look at the stats. For the sake of a fair comparison. I am going to use 2 years for each players team mates.

Greens sophomore and junior years and Walker junior and senior years. Again, this is only to build the most fair comparison.

Joakim Noah averaged 2.2 assists per game and Al Horford averaged 2.1 assists per game

Corey Brewer averaged 3.1 assists per game and Lee Humphrey 1.6.

Let's look at Walker's team mates.

Macklin averaged 0.8 assists per game. Tyus 0.6
Young averaged 1.1 and Eric Murphy 0.8

Chandler Parsons averaged 3.2
Brad Beal 2.2

Kenny Boynton 2.7 (over the two years)

So Taurean Green's team mates over those two years averaged 9 assists per game

Erving Walker's 7.3 and 6.8 for his junior and senior seasons.

This tells me that the skill sets of Green's team mates were much more diverse which means that a pass from Green to a team mate had basically a 22% more chance of leading to an assist by a team mate.

Like I said earlier, the team dynamics were considerably different which gave Walker a greater chance of getting assists throughout the game.

I know I said this earlier; team dynamics, surrounding talent etc. The stats prove my point.

is it irrelevant?

Keep trying to spin it mad, you are becoming more and more irrelevant with each post. Green had the option opportunity to pass to Lee Humphrey, perhaps the greatest three-point shooter in the history of the University of Florida He also had two guys in the paint with great hands who could finish consistently against even best talent in the country. Those teams scored more points per game than Walker's teams did, so of course those teams averaged more assists per game then Walker's did. Finally, none of this changes the fact that your post stating that Walker was not an accurate, effective passer from the point guard position was totally false and is a biased opinion contradicted by facts Take your ball and go home, try again another day. Walker's gone, making good money, playing a game he loves, find somebody else to pick on.

[akaGatorhoops]

Originally Posted by madgator

Taking out Walker's first year when he didn't start at PG, is cherry picking stats. Especially if you are also going to count Green freshman year when he didn't start and averaged 25% less minutes per game than Walker did his freshman year.

During his time as the starting PG, Green averaged 4.2 assist per game. Walker averaged 4.3.

That is the most fair comparison. They were playing about equal minutes both as a the starting PG.


Now, to go back to what has been called the "irrelevant" factor of surrounding talent and how that doesn't quite factor in.

Green had the great fortune or for the purpose of this debate misfortune, of playing with individuals who I consider two of the greatest post passers in college basketball that I have ever seen.

Let's look at the stats. For the sake of a fair comparison. I am going to use 2 years for each players team mates.

Greens sophomore and junior years and Walker junior and senior years. Again, this is only to build the most fair comparison.

Joakim Noah averaged 2.2 assists per game and Al Horford averaged 2.1 assists per game

Corey Brewer averaged 3.1 assists per game and Lee Humphrey 1.6.

Let's look at Walker's team mates.

Macklin averaged 0.8 assists per game. Tyus 0.6
Young averaged 1.1 and Eric Murphy 0.8

Chandler Parsons averaged 3.2
Brad Beal 2.2

Kenny Boynton 2.7 (over the two years)


So Taurean Green's team mates over those two years averaged 9 assists per game

Erving Walker's 7.3 and 6.8 for his junior and senior seasons.


This tells me that the skill sets of Green's team mates were much more diverse which means that a pass from Green to a team mate had basically a 22% more chance of leading to an assist by a team mate.

Like I said earlier, the team dynamics were considerably different which gave Walker a greater chance of getting assists throughout the game.


I know I said this earlier; team dynamics, surrounding talent etc. The stats prove my point.

is it irrelevant?

So where you had previously suggested the other guards being compared to walker were handcuffed by inferior surrounding talent, you are not making a case that green's teammates were too good?!
I am sure you see how dizzying your arguments become.

[madgator]

Originally Posted by NorthCaptivaGator

Keep trying to spin it mad, you are becoming more and more irrelevant with each post. Green had the option opportunity to pass to Lee Humphrey, perhaps the greatest three-point shooter in the history of the University of Florida He also had two guys in the paint with great hands who could finish consistently against even best talent in the country. Those teams scored more points per game than Walker's teams did, so of course those teams averaged more assists per game then Walker's did. Finally, none of this changes the fact that your post stating that Walker was not an accurate, effective passer from the point guard position was totally false and is a biased opinion contradicted by facts Take your ball and go home, try again another day. Walker's gone, making good money, playing a game he loves, find somebody else to pick on.

I'm not spinning anything. Stats show that a pass from Green to a team mate was 22% more likely to result in a team mates assist than Walker.

and I will reiterate that Walker was not an accurate passer. These are things I look for that always used to drive me up the wall with Walker.

Another thing that used to drive me nuts. Which I don't know is the result of an average basketball IQ or just a reckless mentality. Walker would more often than not either pass the ball or drive the ball to the defensive strong side. Like he couldn't recognize defensive shifts or rotations.

A few months ago I asked if anyone was watching that "behind the scenes" show on UK. Did you ever watch it? There was one episode that shows the importance of the subtleties of footwork and positioning on the court AT ALL TIMES.

The point guard was initiating a play and Caliperi went absolutely bazerk on the kid because he was off on his spot to start the play by MAYBE a foot or less and didn't have his body in the proper position because he was too upright.

One foot of positioning, that is how subtle proper basketball can be. positioning, footwork, body posture, utilization of your shoulders, floor balance, spacing, court awareness. the list is literally endless and all of these issues have circumstantial importance.

random example. on a defensive rotation where a player has to run out to a perimeter shooter. There is a proper foot to lead out on that is dependant on where the shooter is on the perimeter. Yes, for a defensive player there is a right and wrong foot in which to take your first step out on to drive out to the shooter and yes, I do notice if guys do it right and when they do it wrong. As well as the reasons why they took the wrong step. Usually if things were done correctly leading up to that moment, the correct first step would be natural.

some people see and understand these things.....some people don't. not anyones fault. Could be the result of amount played, who coached you, individual aptitude. etc.

When I see Erving Walker drive into the lane and run directly into the big fat guy on UCLA there is a sequence of events that lead to that happening and all of it was wrong. The fact that he got lucky and saved himself by throwing up a prayer makes people who don't understand that everything they saw was bad basketball.

There's an asthetic to the game and when it's done right, it's beautiful. Like a dance. The steps have to be coordinated and correct. Subtlety counts.

Can you win games being slightly off? Can you even be the best in the country? perhaps. But I for one will notice the difference.

think about it like olympic judging of diving or gymnastics. lay people don't know what the difference is between a say a 9.1 dive and a 9.3. So they'll just say it's subjective. When in actuality it's not. Some people recognize the subtlety......most don't.

[madgator]

Originally Posted by akaGatorhoops

So where you had previously suggested the other guards being compared to walker were handcuffed by inferior surrounding talent, you are not making a case that green's teammates were too good?!
I am sure you see how dizzying your arguments become.

My arguement is that the quality of the overall basketball was much much much better with the '04s and I'm not just talking about wins and losses and championships.

we were fortunate to have players who basketball fundamentals, individual bball IQs, diverse skill sets, affinity for playing with each other, and focus were all channeled and coordinated.

all of which led to their ability to make plays on the court that players that we've had since would never think to attempt. For example post passing.

Vernon Macklin for example averaged more shot attempts per game than Joakim Noah did. Yet, Noah averaged more points per game.


So it's not a matter of team mates being too good. It's a matter of A leading to B leading to C.

the possibilities of events were greater after Green gave up the ball than Walker because of the abilities of his team mates. Which of course would result in less assists per game for Green.

even though it was only .1 difference per game.

[MJGator8104]

I think at this point it's obvious he will concede nothing which is his right, so, just close this thread and end this otherwise endless argument...

[madgator]

Originally Posted by MJGator8104

I think at this point it's obvious he will concede nothing which is his right, so, just close this thread and end this otherwise endless argument...

or you could just not open and read it.....


why the need to control the conversation of others?


what am I to concede? That Walker was a better PG than Green? Strictly because he had more assists? Because he could dribble through a press?

What is the point to which I am to concede? No one seems to be making that. All I'm doing is pointing out why I feel that Walker is not better than say Green.

Stats don't necessarily tell the whole story.

[akaGatorhoops]

Originally Posted by madgator

My arguement is that the quality of the overall basketball was much much much better with the '04s and I'm not just talking about wins and losses and championships.

we were fortunate to have players who basketball fundamentals, individual bball IQs, diverse skill sets, affinity for playing with each other, and focus were all channeled and coordinated.

all of which led to their ability to make plays on the court that players that we've had since would never think to attempt. For example post passing.

Vernon Macklin for example averaged more shot attempts per game than Joakim Noah did. Yet, Noah averaged more points per game.


So it's not a matter of team mates being too good. It's a matter of A leading to B leading to C.

the possibilities of events were greater after Green gave up the ball than Walker because of the abilities of his team mates. Which of course would result in less assists per game for Green.

even though it was only .1 difference per game.

Of course, you ignore the parts of the equation that do not sport your contention.. namely that while the 06 team had more players capable of passing, any supposed dilution of green's assist opps -v- walker's would likely be offset by those teammates having a greater ability to score. As "north" said.... Green was on a team that scored more overall points and tallied more overall assists. Those, are facts you seem to disregard.
Also, do you not find it the least bit telling that you are struggling in this comparison to green, (arguably the best pg in our history) all while suggesting walker to be the "worst" passing gator guard you have seen?
One would think that such a poor passer would have a far lower benchmark for comparison. And when compared to t.g. .... your point should be far easier to make than it has been.

[akaGatorhoops]

Originally Posted by madgator

What is the point to which I am to concede? No one seems to be making that. All I'm doing is pointing out why I feel that Walker is not better than say Green..

Ok...so have we moved off "worst passing guard" and "zero sum" player to ..."not better than green"?

I will happily concede the latter, but that has hardly been the debate.

[madgator]

Originally Posted by akaGatorhoops

Of course, you ignore the parts of the equation that do not sport your contention.. namely that while the 06 team had more players capable of passing, any supposed dilution of green's assist opps -v- walker's would likely be offset by those teammates having a greater ability to score. As "north" said.... Green was on a team that scored more overall points and tallied more overall assists. Those, are facts you seem to disregard.
Also, do you not find it the least bit telling that you are struggling in this comparison to green, (arguably the best pg in our history) all while suggesting walker to be the "worst" passing gator guard you have seen?
One would think that such a poor passer would have a far lower benchmark for comparison. And when compared to t.g. .... your point should be far easier to make than it has been.

Did the '06 team score more ppg than last year's team? I don't have time to look it up right now, but I don't think thats the case.

As for the comparison.....fine Eddie Shannon. I would rather have Eddie running my team over Walker any day.

I'm not saying that Walker played with a bunch of slouches. I said he played with team mates with more diverse skill sets which lead to greater variations of subsequent events.

[NorthCaptivaGator]

Originally Posted by madgator

My arguement is that the quality of the overall basketball was much much much better with the '04s and I'm not just talking about wins and losses and championships.

we were fortunate to have players who basketball fundamentals, individual bball IQs, diverse skill sets, affinity for playing with each other, and focus were all channeled and coordinated.

all of which led to their ability to make plays on the court that players that we've had since would never think to attempt. For example post passing.

Vernon Macklin for example averaged more shot attempts per game than Joakim Noah did. Yet, Noah averaged more points per game.

So it's not a matter of team mates being too good. It's a matter of A leading to B leading to C.

the possibilities of events were greater after Green gave up the ball than Walker because of the abilities of his team mates. Which of course would result in less assists per game for Green.

even though it was only .1 difference per game.

Step away from the keyboard mad, you are in way over your head here,. By the way, how many assists do you think those Macklin misses cost Erv?

[madgator]

Originally Posted by NorthCaptivaGator

Step away from the keyboard mad, you are in way over your head here,. By the way, how many assists do you think those Macklin misses cost Erv?

when you type this.....are you aware of Macklin's FG% during his days at UF?


I doubt it, cause if you did you wouldn't have typed that. Then again, maybe you would have


but I'M the one who is over my head here!

In a word.....

WOW!!!!!


in any attempt to prove me wrong on this subject he will talk about missed shots from the guy (who I am pretty sure) is in the top 5 all time on UF's all time FG% list with a 60% FG%.

seriously, you can't make this stuff up

[gatordavisl]

Honestly, AKA. Mad did not deserve this thread.

[madgator]

Originally Posted by gatordavisl

Honestly, AKA. Mad did not deserve this thread.

but yet, you felt the need to open, read, and contribute

the thread topic is clear. Addresses both Walker and me. You KNOW where that is going to go.


I say good job AKA for getting the board activity up. Been kind of dead around here recently. Almost 2000 views on this thread and the most new threads opened up in the past 24 hours as there have been in the past 3 weeks.

[NorthCaptivaGator]

Originally Posted by madgator

when you type this.....are you aware of Macklin's FG% during his days at UF?

I doubt it, cause if you did you wouldn't have typed that. Then again, maybe you would have

but I'M the one who is over my head here!

In a word.....

WOW!!!!!

in any attempt to prove me wrong on this subject he will talk about missed shots from the guy (who I am pretty sure) is in the top 5 all time on UF's all time FG% list with a 60% FG%.

seriously, you can't make this stuff up

When you typed this were you aware of your direct quote regarding shot attempts/game vs points per game for Macklin vs Noah and the effect it may have had on the assists per game for their respective point guards?

Noah career .611
Macklin career .599

Actually they are career # 2 and # 3 all time at UF behind #1 Dwayne Davis

Btw #5 is, yep, you guessed it Al Horford
No one else from Walkers team is top 10

And just to rub salt into the wound
#3 all time 3 pt. % at UF Lee Humphrey .44

Murphy from Walkers teams is #8 .41

So first explain to me again which point guard would have an easier time garnering assists and then maybe you would like to explain how a center is able to rank third all time in career field goal percentage at UF when his point guard supposedly can't deliver a decent pass

Keep spinning - you should change your name to Tasmainian Gator

[akaGatorhoops]

Mad,

With all due respect.... you are getting killed here.
And as we have discussed before, I respect and even agree with some of your opinions regarding Walker. But for whatever reason, you stray off his legitimate faults.... and attempt to undercut his strengths and achievements. This suggests some sort of bias and agenda.
Suggesting that the all-time assist leader was the "worst passer", is a losing and silly battle. And a battle you have lost on every front in this thread.

You are entrenched in your position, yet I stubbornly bring the topic to the table time and again.

I am done.

go gators!