Let’s Give Up on the Constitution

[Minister_of_Information]

Originally Posted by ChartsandGrafs

The State exists to serve the army? I've never heard of anything like that before. It doesn't even make sense. The State is not subservient to the State's own military. I have to assume you mean something else or are using the term 'State' in a way I'm not familiar with.

The rest of what you said is the equivalent of a Mafia extortion racket henchman telling one of its victims, "if we don't extort you, some other Mafia will extort you, and that will be much worse, because if we extort you, you have liberty, if they extort you, you don't".

This is not a proper justification for a government extortion racket.

I mean it literally, with the caveat that by "army" I am referring to all the potential military force that a society can mobilize, rather than only that portion which is formally inducted into the armed forces. The state as we know it would not exist if it wasn't needed to serve the army, because it would have no reason to exist.

[ChartsandGrafs]

Originally Posted by wgbgator

The state is a monopoly on violence. A sensible one given that people generally don't like a great deal of competition in that area.

Kudos to you. This is a nice way to put a rather perverse entity.

Moreover, the state has done a pretty good job at making people less violent because of this.

This is like saying that a zoo does pretty good job of making animals less violent. There's obviously little basis for such a claim and it misses the entire point of the discussion.

[ChartsandGrafs]

Originally Posted by Minister_of_Information

I mean it literally, with the caveat that by "army" I am referring to all the potential military force that a society can mobilize, rather than only that portion which is formally inducted into the armed forces. The state as we know it would not exist if it wasn't needed to serve the army, because it would have no reason to exist.

I see, and the key being, "as we know it".

We're still in disagreement on the justifications involved.

[gatorplank]

Originally Posted by ChartsandGrafs

I see no reason to believe evil is necessary at all, and when I ask for people to provide one, they can't.

That pretty much tells me everything I need to know.

F$U, UGA, Alabama, etc.

All evil but necessary so that gator fans have someone to hate.

[Minister_of_Information]

Originally Posted by ChartsandGrafs

I see, and the key being, "as we know it".

We're still in disagreement on the justifications involved.

It's likely that it would not exist at all, without the need to serve an army.

[ChartsandGrafs]

Originally Posted by Minister_of_Information

It's likely that it would not exist at all, without the need to serve an army.

Sounds fantastic.

When do we start?

[Minister_of_Information]

Originally Posted by ChartsandGrafs

Sounds fantastic.

When do we start?

Some sort of eschatological victory is the only way to eliminate the need for an army. I'm currently at a loss for how to get that done.

[wgbgator]

Originally Posted by Minister_of_Information

Personal violence is replaced by institutional violence. Look at the Japanese and the Germans for instance.

You could also use the disapearance of dueling in the Western world as an example. States dispensing justice via rule of law typically takes away motive for revenge or retribution, which is generally the chief cause of personal violence. Moreover, protecting, facilitating and regulating trade makes raiding and piracy non-options for most people.

[wgbgator]

Originally Posted by ChartsandGrafs

Kudos to you. This is a nice way to put a rather perverse entity.



This is like saying that a zoo does pretty good job of making animals less violent. There's obviously little basis for such a claim and it misses the entire point of the discussion.

Actually, there's a rather large body of work out there on this, both academic and popular.