Recruiting Questions

[tampajack1]

Originally Posted by REM08

To address a couple of the above posts:

UFG8trGuy - Interesting breakdown of other coaches websites. I wasn't aware of much of that. I agree with your assessment of the social media component - even with how Cal-centric it is. Most UK fans dont' have a problem with this aspect of Cal, but some do. His website was even a point of contention with the Athletic Department when they were negotiating his contract. I think he "gets it" when it comes to recruits these days. I think elite high school basketball is producing different kids than it used to. Not as many egos needing stroking and kids who are more used to playing with and against the best. Many recruits actually comment that Cal calls them less than any other coach. One even mentioned Cal told him "I'll call you every day if you want, but I'm 50 and you're 17. What are we going to talk about?" He also doesn't make promises of PT or shots etc (most every recruit has commented on this). I think this actually appeals to the most competitive recruits and think some recruits these days are actually turned off by the coach wanting to pander to them (I'm not saying Billy does any of this by the way).

Also, I'm not sure if this video ever circulated around here like the dorm renovations did, but this one is of the new locker room - http://www.coachcal.com/19331/2012/1...a-locker-room/

TampaJack - I don't think everyone should like Kentucky or think that Cal is likeable to all. I just got back from a trip to New Jersey where I talked to my Uncle who absolutely hates UK. He did mention, however, that while he's a huge Yankees fan, he understands why other people might not like them. I can say the same thing for Kentucky. I disagree about your ethical comment and think the evidence (that we have at least) supports this. I don't have proof or anything and I can also see how it'd be easy to scratch your head when seeing someone have so much success recruiting. I actually think it can be good for a sport when the top team (or one of them) is polarizing. It makes everyone care a little more - love or hate. I can honestly say that were I a fan of another team, I would respect what Cal is doing, but I would probably cheer against his team.

REMO8 - I am not suggesting that Calipari has cheated with regard to his current recruits. However, I beleive that he has a history of being unethical, including IMO while he has been at UK. For example, everyone knew that Eric Bledsoe would not be eligible to play college basketball unless something illegal occurred to get his grades up to qualifying. That is what occurred, as determined after investigation by outside legal counsel. I am not suggesting that Calipari had anything to do with the illegalities, but he took advantage of them. He tried the same stuff with Enes Kanter, when everyone knew (including Oak Hill Academy) that the kid was ineligible to play college ball because he had played professionally in Turkey. Then there was the Brandon Knight's mother's job incident. Then there was Calipari not backing off after Terrence Jones committed to Washington. Then there was Calipari forcing kids out of his program in his first year at UK. And these are just the UK incidents. Remember the old story about Calipari telling a recruit that Louie Carnesecca was dying?

[rserina]

Imagine, someone question of Kentucky recruiting on the Florida boards and the emboldened blue sycophants show up to defend him. They sure do show up more frequently now than they did a few years ago. I suspect when the inevitable happens they stop showing up again. Clock is ticking...

[tupacbiff]

Originally Posted by rserina

Imagine, someone question of Kentucky recruiting on the Florida boards and the emboldened blue sycophants show up to defend him. They sure do show up more frequently now than they did a few years ago. I suspect when the inevitable happens they stop showing up again. Clock is ticking...

Couldn't be further from the truth. When cal gets caught cheating they will flock to say they never wanted him and knew it all along and wanted him gone. they are that delusional just see when billy turned them down and their response.

[REM08]

Originally Posted by tampajack1

REMO8 - I am not suggesting that Calipari has cheated with regard to his current recruits. However, I beleive that he has a history of being unethical, including IMO while he has been at UK. For example, everyone knew that Eric Bledsoe would not be eligible to play college basketball unless something illegal occurred to get his grades up to qualifying. That is what occurred, as determined after investigation by outside legal counsel. I am not suggesting that Calipari had anything to do with the illegalities, but he took advantage of them. He tried the same stuff with Enes Kanter, when everyone knew (including Oak Hill Academy) that the kid was ineligible to play college ball because he had played professionally in Turkey. Then there was the Brandon Knight's mother's job incident. Then there was Calipari not backing off after Terrence Jones committed to Washington. Then there was Calipari forcing kids out of his program in his first year at UK. And these are just the UK incidents. Remember the old story about Calipari telling a recruit that Louie Carnesecca was dying?

I know you're not going to the as far as some with the cheating stuff, I was just pointing out that I feel differently. Your post here is full of inaccuracies.

You assume that a coach is the one responsible for determining a players eligibility. If a coach hides nothing from the NCAA, he can allow them to determine who can play and who can't. To my knowledge, it was not found that anything illegal took place with Bledsoe's grades. I remember it being determined that it looked highly questionable/irregular. I've always said I wish Cal had passed on him and don't think Cal would take a player with his circumstances in the future. However, this doesn't say anything about Cal's ethics unless you're implying he knew something that the NCAA didn't - in which case you're calling him an all-out cheater. Playing a player you know to be ineligible is as bad as paying a player IMO. Coaches don't clear players. They can decide to take a risk with a fickle NCAA - thats all.

Knights mom's job is no different than any number of other instances of this happening and isn't even as severe as cases like Tyler Hansboroughs Mom where the employment was from the actual school itself. The fact is that this is not against the rules. Hate it all you want (I don't like it) - but again, not unethical and not cheating.

Again, with Kanter, you're assuming Cal is responsible for determining his eligibility. The fact is that players who receive close to 10k in cash from agents/whoever have to sit a portion of a season and Kanter, after receiving 33k in money for his EDUCATION, was ruled permanently ineligible. His wealthy family didn't even spend the money, had proof of this, and was willing to repay it. Whether or not Kanter's ruling was fair doesn't matter. Again though, its not Cal's job to decide this. It afforded Josh Harrelson a good big man to practice against and, again, isn't unethical, or cheating.

Cal didn't pursue Terrance Jones and this has been covered a hundred times. Jones called Cal who told him good luck at UW and when Jones talked about making a mistake Cal mentioned not being willing to talk to him till Jones talked to Romar. Cal, Jones and Coach O have said this same story. I dont' have audio of it so you can believe it or not.

I see nothing wrong with Cal telling kids that he didn't recruit that he didnt' see a future for them at UK as far as playing time is concerned. I'm not sure if he forced them out against their will or if he just showed them the writing on the wall as far as their playing future was concerned. Again, not cheating. Ethics can be debated I guess. Its not nearly as bad as the oversigning you're starting to see some basketball programs do. Thats a coach doing this to players they themselves recruited. Its oddly common.

I DO remember the old story about Cal telling a recruit that a coach was dying. Its been denied by the recruit himself

He is often mentioned as the St. John's recruit Calipari tried to steal away—"Coach Lou having cancer?" Martin says. "Cal didn't tell me that. It never happened"—as is center Marvin Branch, who chose Kansas over Pitt in '87. "It's not true," says Branch, now a social worker living in Oskaloosa, Kans. "I never had a conversation with Calipari about St. John's or somebody having cancer."

I'm not saying there aren't things to dislike about Cal. Just think some people want to hate him, or do hate him, so much they're creating evidence.

[tommyuf21]

Originally Posted by REM08

I see nothing wrong with Cal telling kids that he didn't recruit that he didnt' see a future for them at UK as far as playing time is concerned. I'm not sure if he forced them out against their will or if he just showed them the writing on the wall as far as their playing future was concerned. Again, not cheating. Ethics can be debated I guess. Its not nearly as bad as the oversigning you're starting to see some basketball programs do. Thats a coach doing this to players they themselves recruited. Its oddly common.

I don't believe scholarships were pulled in these instances. I agree that any coach is under no obligation to give playing time to student athletes because they are on scholarship, whether he signed them or not. After all, if the coach is being judged on wins and losses, then who are we to tell him who to play? This happens at UF too, when things don't work out. From what I have read, Billy is extremely supportive of those who move on. I don't know how Calipari handles these situations, but he doesn't seem like the type that would block transfers to certain schools, etc. His ego is large enough where he isn't threatened by one of his players going to another school.

I don't like Cal now and never have. This predates his time at UK. I thought he was a slime ball at Memphis, in the NBA and at UMass. I will consider him a slimeball after he leaves UK. He has made his deal with the devil, aka William Wesley, and we'll see where that takes him down the line. Eventually, I believe that relationship takes him back to the NBA.

I have an even bigger problem with the NCAA though. They have given their tacit approval of the status quo, by allowing agents access to amateurs and not stepping in to deal with the corrupt AAU coaches who are paid lots of money to steer players to certain programs.

As for UK, their zeal in which to steal our coach and the arrogance of their fans during those two episodes will never be forgotten. It will be interesting to see if they attempt to do this again after Calipari goes back to the pro game.

[GatorLurker]

Lots of you guys forget that it was assumed by lots of people that Billy D must have been cheating to get Mike Miller and the like when he was new to Gainesville. I seriously doubt that Billy D broke the rules, but I also believe that he pushed the envelope pretty hard.

I also believe that Cal is similar: not breaking rules, but going out to the margins.

I have as much proof for what I believe as those that say that he cheats, but on my side of the argument is that he has never been caught red handed. That doesn't mean he is clean, though. Look at Lance Armstrong.

[tupacbiff]

Originally Posted by GatorLurker

Lots of you guys forget that it was assumed by lots of people that Billy D must have been cheating to get Mike Miller and the like when he was new to Gainesville. I seriously doubt that Billy D broke the rules, but I also believe that he pushed the envelope pretty hard.

I also believe that Cal is similar: not breaking rules, but going out to the margins.

I have as much proof for what I believe as those that say that he cheats, but on my side of the argument is that he has never been caught red handed. That doesn't mean he is clean, though. Look at Lance Armstrong.

Seems like someone needs a fact check. Billy d was assumed to be cheating he was flat out accessed and reported by Roy Williams. He was cleared.

Cal has had 2 programs with wins vacated.

Lance Armstrong = horrible comparison base on the rest of your post.

[GatorLurker]

Originally Posted by tupacbiff

Seems like someone needs a fact check. Billy d was assumed to be cheating he was flat out accessed and reported by Roy Williams. He was cleared.

Cal has had 2 programs with wins vacated.

Lance Armstrong = horrible comparison base on the rest of your post.

Billy being cleared is totally consistent with my post.

Cal was never implicated. It looks bad for Cal, but no smoking gun. Again consistent with my post.

But never being caught doesn't make you clean. Lance cheated and the drug testing never nailed him conclusively. Again, consistent with my post.

Reading is fundamental.

[tupacbiff]

Originally Posted by GatorLurker

Lots of you guys forget that it was assumed by lots of people that Billy D must have been cheating to get Mike Miller and the like when he was new to Gainesville. I seriously doubt that Billy D broke the rules, but I also believe that he pushed the envelope pretty hard..

again incorrect facts. It was not assumed it was a formal accusation. Your pos is factually incorrect. You don't have to doubt he broke the rules because he was investigated and cleared by the NCAA.

I guess reading is fundamental. You are welcome that I taught you something you didn't know.

[GatorLurker]

Originally Posted by tupacbiff

again incorrect facts. It was not assumed it was a formal accusation. Your pos is factually incorrect. You don't have to doubt he broke the rules because he was investigated and cleared by the NCAA.

I guess reading is fundamental. You are welcome that I taught you something you didn't know.

You can be cleared and actually cheat.

Don't you yourself say this about Cal?

You lose.

Live with it.

[tupacbiff]

Originally Posted by GatorLurker

You can be cleared and actually cheat.

Don't you yourself say this about Cal?

You lose.

Live with it.

Of course you can be cleared and actually cheat but that is not what you said.

I never commented on Cal being investigated and cleared by the ncaa. If I did quote it.

I lose...its not about winning and losing because I am right yet again as I showed from our posts. I understand you are not happy being made to look foolish.

You can still thank me its not too late.

[REM08]

Tupac looking Notre Dame-esque tonight.

[tupacbiff]

Originally Posted by REM08

Tupac looking Notre Dame-esque tonight.

You mean shiny and golden - thanks, although I dont put much credence into anyone's opinion who supports having a criminal on staff of their fav college hoops team. At some point you have to stand up for what is right and the UK fans are utterly lacking in ethical and moral fortitude for allowing Stickland on staff. They should be demanding he be terminated.

[bullish]

Brandon Knight's mom job w/ a Kentucky booster's company, was it the deciding reason that Brandon went to Kentucky. Obviously! Is this cheating, maybe not in the eyes of the law, er NCAA, or the not going to enforce shady tatics division if you will, but it was an inducement. Brandon wanted to be a Gator for his whole life. If Kentucky fans are alright with this, I wonder how many others there are getting this and other favors within the Kentucky faithful. This mirrors Alabama in football. So go feel good about yourselves, getting players through family inducements. I have said many times, the NCAA does not want to work hard to get rogue programs in line. They have a great time spending the money they are taxing all universities. Instead of meeting in fancy places/resorts, they should be changing the rules on families gaining inducements at the window of time when their sons are playing. Additionally, no coaches can be brought in just to get a recruit, ala; Danny Manning and his recruitment. I am sure Kentucky faithful would find a way around these new rules if implemented. So when Alabama wins another Nat'l title or Kentucky in B-ball, it smells like a sewage plant is nearby. Both universities are in states where few people choose to live so go figure that one out. This is why the universities need a new governing body that encompasses fair play and rules all schools should abide by.

When a new recruit in announced going to Kentucky on ESPN, I cringe wondering what inducement was used this time. Just a bad gut feeling. This was the same feeling I got when Alabama was playing a student athlete team the other night. Pros versus the student/athlete. I am sure that people all around the nation felt things need to change in enforcement. Lack enforcement including rule changing allows the pseudo "Dynasties" to continue. As usual, he who has the gold, makes the rules!

Playoffs won't change the way universities recruit and level the field. Look for Kentucky and Alabama to stay on top till University Presidents and AD's get admandant about rules reform or forming a new body to govern them. This is like asking the Congress to quit spending money they don't have. LOL and Sad!

[BEH]

If Alabama and Kentucky has great recruiting and success it is because of cheating, but if Florida recruits and wins or Notre Dame recruits and wins it is good. Notre Dame is student athletes and Alabama is pros.

The most passionate fan bases are at Alabama and Kentucky and it has been that way for the last 75 years, yet they have to cheat to get a recruit. Bull crap!

[UFG8rGuy3283]

Originally Posted by BEH

If Alabama and Kentucky has great recruiting and success it is because of cheating, but if Florida recruits and wins or Notre Dame recruits and wins it is good. Notre Dame is student athletes and Alabama is pros.

The most passionate fan bases are at Alabama and Kentucky and it has been that way for the last 75 years, yet they have to cheat to get a recruit. Bull crap!

Bert, I do not disagree with some of the items you have talked about, i.e. tradition, fan base, facilities. Your points are well taken and I completely agree that these have something to do with what Cal has been able to accomplish.

I do not know if Brandon Knight's mom really got a high paying job from a UK booster, but let me play devil's advocate for a moment.

If this were something that proved to be true, whether it is against the rules or not, is that something you would consider to be unethical? Again, not saying that it is indeed true, but if it were, would you agree that type of inducement would sway a recruit to enroll at UK for his education and to play basketball?

It's not a trick or trap question. It is simply a question to know where you would stand on this type of thing. I know you believe that UK does not NEED to do this to recruit the best of the best and land them. But if it were a tactic that were used, even if legal, how would you feel about it?

[REM08]

Originally Posted by UFG8rGuy3283

Bert, I do not disagree with some of the items you have talked about, i.e. tradition, fan base, facilities. Your points are well taken and I completely agree that these have something to do with what Cal has been able to accomplish.

I do not know if Brandon Knight's mom really got a high paying job from a UK booster, but let me play devil's advocate for a moment.

If this were something that proved to be true, whether it is against the rules or not, is that something you would consider to be unethical? Again, not saying that it is indeed true, but if it were, would you agree that type of inducement would sway a recruit to enroll at UK for his education and to play basketball?

It's not a trick or trap question. It is simply a question to know where you would stand on this type of thing. I know you believe that UK does not NEED to do this to recruit the best of the best and land them. But if it were a tactic that were used, even if legal, how would you feel about it?

Its a good question.

There's a lot we don't know. Was the job potential part of the recruiting process? Was it known by the coaching staff/school? Was the job something above and beyond the type of employment that Tonya could have obtained at a similar company? Was she qualified?

We do know one thing. Its not against the rules unless it is deemed to be impermissible. If Brandon had been an engineering student, would it be beyond comprehension that his mom could have gotten the same job? I think the answer would have to be an unequivocal yes before the NCAA would care. Think about the potential lawsuit they'd be at risk of. For their to be a rule against this, they'd essentially be saying that they are in the business of limiting the employment options of the families of student athletes who wish to follow their child to school and make a living.

I don't mean to sound judgmental, but its not exactly as if John Wall's mom (who I've met) or Eric Bledsoe's mom landed a job making good money (sounds judgmental, I know). Anyone who knows Brandon's mom knows the firecracker that she is. She's very intelligent and VERY ambitious. I'm not saying she would have gotten the same job if she weren't Brandon's mom, but its hard for anyone to suggest there's zero chance of this.

Then there's the issue you bring up, is it unethical? Oversigning isn't against the rules, but I don't like it when players get mislead by a coach. Unethical? I don't know I guess. I feel the same way with this. I don't like it. I think its very possible that recruits parents get jobs that are legit - even if its with the company of a booster. I also think this creates a slippery slope that could be easily taken advantage of. If I'm the NCAA, I point to this logic and outlaw it entirely. I'm torn though, as the conservative in me hates seeing the freedom encroachment here. However, at the risk of being off-putting when I say this, from what I understand of Knights recruitment, it was not a close enough decision to necessitate a tipping point of any kind when he picked UK. It definitely started out close though.

I think what happened at UNC (no, not the academic fraud, but Tyler H's mom) is worse. Not only was she employed by the school, but used 10's of thousands of school dollars to travel to away games to see him play. I realize this doesn't get as much talk around here because you guys are not UNC rivals. But I think this should put into perspective what the NCAA doesn't seem to care about.

[tommyuf21]

Originally Posted by REM08

I think what happened at UNC (no, not the academic fraud, but Tyler H's mom) is worse. Not only was she employed by the school, but used 10's of thousands of school dollars to travel to away games to see him play. I realize this doesn't get as much talk around here because you guys are not UNC rivals. But I think this should put into perspective what the NCAA doesn't seem to care about.

Just points to the fact that its a corrupt system that encourages individuals to exercise a win at all cost strategy, with little disincentive for ethical behavior.

Let's apply the UK "we don't have to cheat to win" scenario to UNC. Since UF doesn't apply to this excuse, because other than our coach's success, we have nothing to say here. However, what about UNC? They have many of the advantages that UK has; tradition, championships, huge full arena, basketball school, multiple NBA superstars (Jordan, Worthy, etc). Yet, they still feel the need to break the rules in order to placate a star player.

What makes UK, Duke, Syracuse any different from UNC? If UNC doesn't have to cheat to win and still does, what does it say about other elite programs.

[BEH]

Originally Posted by UFG8rGuy3283

Bert, I do not disagree with some of the items you have talked about, i.e. tradition, fan base, facilities. Your points are well taken and I completely agree that these have something to do with what Cal has been able to accomplish.

I do not know if Brandon Knight's mom really got a high paying job from a UK booster, but let me play devil's advocate for a moment.

If this were something that proved to be true, whether it is against the rules or not, is that something you would consider to be unethical? Again, not saying that it is indeed true, but if it were, would you agree that type of inducement would sway a recruit to enroll at UK for his education and to play basketball?

It's not a trick or trap question. It is simply a question to know where you would stand on this type of thing. I know you believe that UK does not NEED to do this to recruit the best of the best and land them. But if it were a tactic that were used, even if legal, how would you feel about it?

I was banned on this board for discussing recruiting by Kentucky and Florida, so I cannot really address your post.

I feel that Kentucky and Alabama are the two schools in the SEC who need to cheat the least. You don't see empty seats at Alabama football and Kentucky basketball games.

A booster who has a firm can hire whomever they want to hire. So the Brandon Knight stuff is pure fluff; however, no matter where Knight would have gone he would have been a one and done kid because he is a stud.

My question is why would a 5 star stud go to a school in the SEC other than Kentucky?

[tupacbiff]

Originally Posted by BEH

I was banned on this board for discussing recruiting by Kentucky and Florida, so I cannot really address your post.

I feel that Kentucky and Alabama are the two schools in the SEC who need to cheat the least. You don't see empty seats at Alabama football and Kentucky basketball games.

A booster who has a firm can hire whomever they want to hire. So the Brandon Knight stuff is pure fluff; however, no matter where Knight would have gone he would have been a one and done kid because he is a stud.

My question is why would a 5 star stud go to a school in the SEC other than Kentucky?

My question is how do you support a program that employ a criminal? Where is the moral and ethical compass?