Let’s Give Up on the Constitution

[ChartsandGrafs]

Originally Posted by Lawdog88

Yes, quite really.

But do go on.

I already did.

Nothing at all is self-evident in what Minister stated.

[Gatorpika]

Originally Posted by ChartsandGrafs

I also love the notion that we delegate to government any administrative powers. This is a complete and total myth. No government asks for permission. No government waits for the people it claims dominion over to delegate anything before they begin exerting power. We were all born into this system and agreed to nothing.

The government would fight us tooth and nail using every means available, up to and including nuclear weapons, if we ever attempted to revoke any imaginary powers we allegedly delegated it to it.

Yet we benefit from the security provided by the government and the people. We benefit from the stability and predictability of our body of law. You wouldn't be sitting in your home/bunker/Ted Kazinski cabin typing on the internet without the structure of government we have. You have the freedom to renounce your citizenship and go live in Somalia or wherever.

[ChartsandGrafs]

Originally Posted by Gatorpika

Yet we benefit from the security provided by the government and the people.

LOL, tell that to the people who died on 9/11.

We benefit from the stability and predictability of our body of law.

Do we? What's stable and predictable about it? There are thousands upon thousands of stupid, unfair laws, statutes, and regulations in this country. I've heard legal experts say that there are so many laws, that it's virtually impossible for any American to go without breaking at least one or more of them, even if they were mindful of it. Imagine that. Our crooked government has created a sort of legal Matrix that allows them to arrest virtually any American if they ever need the excuse. All they have to do is either figure out what law(s) you've broken or monitor you and wait for you trip over one of their many legal tripwires.

Yeah, that sounds real beneficial. We should be so lucky!

You wouldn't be sitting in your home/bunker/Ted Kazinski cabin typing on the internet without the structure of government we have.

You don't know that. For all you know, in a more sane world absent government monopolies, we'd all be sitting in a much better place. This is all you know, so this is all you can imagine.

You have the freedom to renounce your citizenship and go live in Somalia or wherever.

Yes, and it sounds like you don't like me speaking freely or criticizing the U.S. government. Since that's the case, maybe you should go live in North Korea where that's frowned on and not tolerated.

You sound like you'd fit in there.

[Gatorpika]

Originally Posted by ChartsandGrafs

LOL, tell that to the people who died on 9/11.

Do we? What's stable and predictable about it? There are thousands upon thousands of stupid, unfair laws, statutes, and regulations in this country. I've heard legal experts say that there are so many laws, that it's virtually impossible for any American to go without breaking at least one or more of them, even if they were mindful of it. Imagine that. Our crooked government has created a sort of legal Matrix that allows them to arrest virtually any American if they ever need the excuse. All they have to do is either figure out what law(s) you've broken or monitor you and wait for you trip over one of their many legal tripwires.

Yeah, that sounds real beneficial. We should be so lucky!

You don't know that. For all you know, in a more sane world absent government monopolies, we'd all be sitting in a much better place. This is all you know, so this is all you can imagine.

Yes, and it sounds like you don't like me speaking freely or criticizing the U.S. government. Since that's the case, maybe you should go live in North Korea where that's frowned on and not tolerated.

You sound like you'd fit in there.

Yeah we have a lot of stupid laws and the country is far from perfect. But advocating for the absence of law would be far worse. There are countless examples in history where peoples have suffered to a much greater degree than most of us could fathom due to the absence of the rule of law and a strong government. It's far better to live with nuisance laws here than fear for your life and lose your possessions in a lawless society. But I am sure this has been conveyed to you countless times already in here.

[ChartsandGrafs]

Originally Posted by Gatorpika

Yeah we have a lot of stupid laws and the country is far from perfect. But advocating for the absence of law would be far worse. There are countless examples in history where peoples have suffered to a much greater degree than most of us could fathom due to the absence of the rule of law and a strong government. It's far better to live with nuisance laws here than fear for your life and lose your possessions in a lawless society. But I am sure this has been conveyed to you countless times already in here.

This is false. Haven't you ever heard the term, 'natural law'?

There's no such thing as an "absence of the rule of law". Government or no government, natural law always rules, without exception.

So you're not conveying anything new to me. The problem is, it's all wrong and based on common falsehoods.

[Gatorpika]

Originally Posted by ChartsandGrafs

This is false. Haven't you ever heard the term, 'natural law'?

There's no such thing as an "absence of the rule of law". Government or no government, natural law always rules, without exception.

So you're not conveying anything new to me. The problem is, it's all wrong and based on common falsehoods.

The ideas behind natural law existed long before they were codified in the constitution. And they were generally not followed in most of the world. Natural law is simply a philosophy without an enforcement framework. Even in the United States, where certain elements of natural law are codified in our supreme law, these laws were sometimes disregarded by those sworn to uphold them.

[ChartsandGrafs]

Originally Posted by Gatorpika

The ideas behind natural law existed long before they were codified in the constitution. And they were generally not followed in most of the world.

LOL. Of course they were. We wouldn't be here if early man didn't follow natural law. We'd either still be in caves or extinct.

Natural law is simply a philosophy without an enforcement framework.

Total nonsense. Each individual person enforces natural law. Do you want proof?

Easy. Just go around and randomly attack strangers and find out what happens.

Even in the United States, where certain elements of natural law are codified in our supreme law, these laws were sometimes disregarded by those sworn to uphold them.

You're not saying much here. All laws are disregarded by those sworn to uphold them, including your vaunted man-made laws.

What else is new?

[Gatorpika]

[quote="ChartsandGrafs"]
Easy. Just go around and randomly attack strangers and find out what happens.
/QUOTE]

Not much if you were a lord in feudal England attacking peons. If natural law were some magic rules genetically coded in all of us, why did it take until the 1700s before the enlightenment thinkers wrote it down and advocated for its application? And the premise of your governmentless society ruled by natural law is that there is universal acceptance of natural law and all would voluntarily adhere to it. That's just not realistic when some can gain benefits by subjugating others. It's human nature to covet and there will always be those that will ignore social Norma to get what they want.

[ChartsandGrafs]

Originally Posted by Gatorpika

And the premise of your governmentless society ruled by natural law is that there is universal acceptance of natural law and all would voluntarily adhere to it. That's just not realistic when some can gain benefits by subjugating others. It's human nature to covet and there will always be those that will ignore social Norma to get what they want.

What you're describing here also happens in societies with governments and man-made laws. Just look at the United States, for example. The U.S. government bends and ignores its own laws whenever it's convenient, and there's nothing you can do about it. You can pretend that you have some ability to stop it by voting in someone new, but you really don't. You're only allowed to vote for a pre-approved selection of candidates, courtesy of the ruling elites. It's basically a dictatorship, where you get to pick your own tyrant. And if you think the courts are going to put a stop to it, think again. The courts work for them. Just look at what the judicial system has allowed over the last hundred years if you need need any evidence.

The difference between your society and mine is, your society legalizes this tyrannical system of institutionalized corruption and exploitation, and allows it to amass the wealth and resources of an entire nation, while my society identifies these people for what they are and declares open season on them before they can get started. No rational person capable of independent thought could possibly declare your government-monopoly society superior to my free, competitive society.

[fredsanford]

Originally Posted by ChartsandGrafs

What you're describing here also happens in societies with governments and man-made laws. Just look at the United States, for example. The U.S. government bends and ignores its own laws whenever it's convenient, and there's nothing you can do about it. You can pretend that you have some ability to stop it by voting in someone new, but you really don't. You're only allowed to vote for a pre-approved selection of candidates, courtesy of the ruling elites. It's basically a dictatorship, where you get to pick your own tyrant. And if you think the courts are going to put a stop to it, think again. The courts work for them. Just look at what the judicial system has allowed over the last hundred years if you need need any evidence.

The difference between your society and mine is, your society legalizes this tyrannical system of institutionalized corruption and exploitation, and allows it to amass the wealth and resources of an entire nation, while my society identifies these people for what they are and declares open season on them before they can get started. No rational person capable of independent thought could possibly declare your government-monopoly society superior to my free, competitive society.

Though we probably don't agree on much, we are somewhat in sync on this.

For the entire Bush era, I was on here pounding away about the assaults on our civil liberties. What was the right wing response? Silly liberal, it's all good if it makes us secure. Do you want another 9/11?

Suddenly these same conservatives woke up when a Dem became president. Warrantless wiretapping? How DARE you! Not in my country! Imprisonment without due process? Outrageous!

Be careful what you approve of when YOUR guy is in charge. Don't forget that eventually the opposition will get that sword, too.

[ChartsandGrafs]

Originally Posted by fredsanford

Though we probably don't agree on much, we are somewhat in sync on this.

I don't see how we are in sync at all. Our views are as far apart as Mercury and Pluto. You're as partisan as anyone on the board and you practically worship government. You defend almost everything it does, as long as your team has control. If the other team has control, you scream bloody murder, but it's clearly disingenuous.

That's not my game, dude.

[Minister_of_Information]

The law of nature is force.

[ChartsandGrafs]

Originally Posted by Minister_of_Information

The law of nature is force.

And the belief in government is the idea that we should give a certain group of people a monopoly on the initiation of that force.

Why should anyone be allowed to have a monopoly on the initiation of aggressive force? If it's wrong for me to go around robbing people, why should it be right for a group of people called "government" to do it?

[Minister_of_Information]

Originally Posted by ChartsandGrafs

And the belief in government is the idea that we should give a certain group of people a monopoly on the initiation of that force.

Why should anyone be allowed to have a monopoly on the initiation of aggressive force? If it's wrong for me to go around robbing people, why should it be right for a group of people called "government" to do it?

No power can be delegated that cannot be taken back.

[ChartsandGrafs]

Originally Posted by Minister_of_Information

No power can be delegated that cannot be taken back.

That's a comforting thought, but is it true? Can we really just "take" back all the power we've allowed them to accumulate? Do you figure they will hand it over willingly?

I believe there's enough available evidence to suggest that the powers that be are setting up a system of control that will be impossible to rebel against on a large and coordinated enough scale to make such a rebellion successful. This system will be global in nature, and it will include financial, economic, military, intelligence, police, surveillance, political, trade, food, water, and legal controls. Much of it will be electronic, by design, and it will be ever-present and completely objective. Satellites, drones, and massive supercomputers will watch, see, hear, and decipher all movement and communications. Successful rebellions of the past, which were almost always supported externally by sovereign governments sympathetic to the cause, will no longer be possible.

Before you go and dismiss this as the ravings of a lunatic, take a look around at the evidence, much of it found in the mainstream media. What do you see? Domestic drone spying, inland checkpoints, no-knock paramilitary raids, airport groping, wars based on lies, out-of-control militarized police, political and economic regionalization, globalization, international regulation, citizen disarmament, mass electronic surveillance, government torture, the Patriot Act, the NDAA, for-profit prisons, institutionalized corruption, degenerate lying media, currency debasement, government scandals and cover ups, dangerous Executive Orders, and many, many more.

All of these are on the increase. It's total madness, yet nobody is doing anything to stop it. The politicians twiddle their thumbs or try to change the subject. The news media reports it but rarely ever asks any hard questions. The people are distracted by the spectacle of mass media bread and circuses. It's being left unchecked, and its trajectory is unmistakable. Put it all together and it forms a sort of crude picture of the world of hurt we will soon find ourselves in.

Good luck trying to get that power you spoke of back, because the only way you or anyone else will be able to do it is by taking a nap and dreaming about it.

[wargunfan]

C&G makes some valid points about the trajectory of government. We see a lot of what he describes every day. The problem with his dream is that he will never find it. Not here; not anywhere (that is unless he could find an island that is not on any map and which has the basic resources for survival).
Any where you find humans you will find sin and evil. The produce of the human heart will always be evil in the end. One of the first products of human nature in the bible was murder.
Everything we do is a compromise with the evil nature of mankind. The writers of the Constitution were well aware of this. The checks and balances in the Constitution are checks on the evil natures of men else they would not be needed.
If you put two men together at some point evil will result. The more men congregate the more evil will occur. Our nation only holds together as long as evil is held in check.
We have reached a point in the evolution of this experiment in democracy where the government has ignored the Constitution and looks at its own citizens as adversaries to be surveilled and monitored. We once believed that government existed by the consent of the governed. But this government does things far beyond our consent. How many of us would have believed that our government would use rendition without a trial and torture as a means to defend freedom and justice? How many of us would have believed that American citizens would be killed by drone strikes without due process of law?
Our Executive branch has become something to be feared and we really don't see any limits to its power over the individual.
I am not so quick to ridicule what C&G says about the nature of our current government. The potential for oppression by this government continues to grow and who knows where it will end.
The world in which C&G would live is not possible as long as men are under the curse of evil. But he makes us think about the nature of the world we live in.

[Minister_of_Information]

Originally Posted by ChartsandGrafs

That's a comforting thought, but is it true? Can we really just "take" back all the power we've allowed them to accumulate? Do you figure they will hand it over willingly?

I believe there's enough available evidence to suggest that the powers that be are setting up a system of control that will be impossible to rebel against on a large and coordinated enough scale to make such a rebellion successful. This system will be global in nature, and it will include financial, economic, military, intelligence, police, surveillance, political, trade, food, water, and legal controls. Much of it will be electronic, by design, and it will be ever-present and completely objective. Satellites, drones, and massive supercomputers will watch, see, hear, and decipher all movement and communications. Successful rebellions of the past, which were almost always supported externally by sovereign governments sympathetic to the cause, will no longer be possible.

Before you go and dismiss this as the ravings of a lunatic, take a look around at the evidence, much of it found in the mainstream media. What do you see? Domestic drone spying, inland checkpoints, no-knock paramilitary raids, airport groping, wars based on lies, out-of-control militarized police, political and economic regionalization, globalization, international regulation, citizen disarmament, mass electronic surveillance, government torture, the Patriot Act, the NDAA, for-profit prisons, institutionalized corruption, degenerate lying media, currency debasement, government scandals and cover ups, dangerous Executive Orders, and many, many more.

All of these are on the increase. It's total madness, yet nobody is doing anything to stop it. The politicians twiddle their thumbs or try to change the subject. The news media reports it but rarely ever asks any hard questions. The people are distracted by the spectacle of mass media bread and circuses. It's being left unchecked, and its trajectory is unmistakable. Put it all together and it forms a sort of crude picture of the world of hurt we will soon find ourselves in.

Good luck trying to get that power you spoke of back, because the only way you or anyone else will be able to do it is by taking a nap and dreaming about it.

Speak for yourself.

WOLVERINES!

[sierragator]

So by competitive society what he really means is he wants to live out a post apocalyptic fantasy as some kind of heavily armed warlord who can prey on those who are weaker than him without the inconvenience of any other authority to get in his way.

[ChartsandGrafs]

Originally Posted by sierragator

...heavily armed warlord who can prey on those who are weaker than him without the inconvenience of any other authority to get in his way.

Congratulations, you just described the U.S. government.

The difference between your warlord and mine is, nobody would consider mine legal or legitimate, of course. People would quickly identify him for the psychopath he is and they would resist his predations before he could accumulate too much power. Your warlord, on the other hand, is legal and considered legitimate. So it's not just a criminal warlord, it's a criminal warlord with a license to pillage, steal, and murder. Your warlord has global-level power, yet even that's not enough for it to be satisfied. It wants more power and is always consolidating that power further.

My society is based on competition. Your society is based on a monopoly. Which one is more likely to produce inefficiency, corruption, abuse, and stagnation? There's no debate here. The answer is as clear as day, even for the publicly educated.

[sierragator]

You're just jealous that you are not in charge. Yes everyone would gladly choose your vision of a feudal style system. The fact that the status quo has flaws does not automatically equate to the obvious superiority of your warlord fantasy. Every human endeavor has flaws. You would be just as despotic (if not more so) than what you rail against.