Recruiting Questions

[tommyuf21]

Originally Posted by StrangeGator

I follow football recruiting closely and there hasn't been this kind of dominance by one team since the sixties, right before the NCAA stepped in and made the "Bama Rules." The difference is the closer proximity in time between high school and seven figure contracts. Agents, runners, the AAU circuit have all closed in to reap the rewards. Players and their parents are playing right along. College is nothing more than an extra season of AAU ball, with the annoying distraction of academics. For a college coach to be successful recruiting players almost certain to be drafted high after their freshman season, he has to play by the established rules. I don't know what they are, but I can't imagine all those people putting their hands back in the pockets just because an NCAA coach walked in the room.

If it was up to me, I would push through a rule that would ban all contact from amateurs with agents and/or their associates. They would be inelgible to compete at any member institution. Now, this could force the NBA back into allowing high schoolers to go straight to the league. That's the price that may need to be paid to at least start to address this abomination.

As it stands now, agents can talk to them but cannot make an agreement. Exactly how is that enforced? It can't be and that's why the contact has to be banned altogether.

This system, as it stands now, is inherently corrupt and unmanageable. Coaches have to choose whether or not to play along with the AAU crowd and agents or be irrelevant. People like WWW have way too much power over the college game.

[UFG8rGuy3283]

Originally Posted by tommyuf21

If it was up to me, I would push through a rule that would ban all contact from amateurs with agents and/or their associates. They would be inelgible to compete at any member institution. Now, this could force the NBA back into allowing high schoolers to go straight to the league. That's the price that may need to be paid to at least start to address this abomination.

As it stands now, agents can talk to them but cannot make an agreement. Exactly how is that enforced? It can't be and that's why the contact has to be banned altogether.

This system, as it stands now, is inherently corrupt and unmanageable. Coaches have to choose whether or not to play along with the AAU crowd and agents or be irrelevant. People like WWW have way too much power over the college game.

I, for one, would be THRILLED if the NBA let high school kids go to the pros straight away. If a kid chooses to go to college, they stay 3 years. This way programs can build continuity and the kids who are good enough can go make their money. What is the problem with the NCAA and NBA agreeing to this? Oh yeah, the greedy Players Union for one. Make the D-league a true minor league for kids who don't want to go to school.

It makes too.much sense I guess?

[tupacbiff]

How about the nba decides to make the draft on the eve of march madness?

[REM08]

Its been a while since we'd had one of these sad threads. Too long I guess. Funny I see the same threads about Alabama on the football board regularly as well.

The NCAA sniffs after Cal as much as anyone alive. His 500th victory repremand is a good example. He's either so good at cheating he's the antichrist, or he's not cheating. I can tell you one thing (we can save time debating the past), he doesn't need to cheat with the snowball he's got going at the moment. At this point, the typical top 15 recruit is quite convinced that Cal is his best ticket to the NBA. Is this true? Doesn't matter.

Additionally, Cal can pitch to any player that they won't play in front of a more passionate fanbase (in front of bigger crowds), won't live and practice in better facilities, and won't practice with/against more future NBA talent at any other school. Don't know if yall have caught the most recent renovation videos, but the facilities are on another level. Does ALL of this have to convince every top 15 recruit? Nope. Just 3, 4 or 5 of them. Somehow this is THAT unrealistic? Keep in mind that his "system" pretty much perpetuates itself. No one has scholarships or playing time available like Cal. Cal's recruting classes don't compare to other schools because other schools aren't in the same circumstance. This kind of stuff comes in cycles and right now the stars are aligned (one and done rule) for Cal to recruit successfully.

I think many recruits are fairly paranoid about what school they attend. Will they get playing time or get passed over because of seniority? Do good players get better or does the school produce busts at a worrysome rate? Think about the big recruits Cal has landed and show me where the massive bust or dissapointment is. No Harrison Barnes yet. Recruiting guys I listen to suggest this means security (or the perception of it at least) for a top recruit.

Those of you who talk about players wanting to be the man are thinking of what was more common in the past. Sure some of those types still exist. But many more are of the mindset that we're even seeing in the NBA about wanting to group up with other stars. Just watch Chris Walker and Kasey Hill's twitter feeds if you don't believe me.

I don't like the OAD rule and neither does Cal for that matter. Its what we've got now. If you think Cal gets the benefit of favoritism from the NCAA, you're completely delusional.

Also, your WWW talk is hilarious and overblown. He is not influential, from what I hear, with the majority of UK recruits. When he is, its still overblown (except with MKG where it was significant). Many teams have notable people playing the same role he does. He doesnt just do it for Kentucky either. Its a sexy story though.

[phideltdj]

How can you say he didn't recruit well at Memphis or Umass...He turned mediocre programs into basketball powerhouses. Do you think Derrick Rose was not top player coming out of high school and picked Memphis and not UK, Duke, UNC..etc. Let's put it this way putting Cal at a program like UK is like putting Bonds on steriods...you already have a great program but now you have unbelievable. The point is if you put Cal at any school in the power ratings from 20-50 he will make them a basketball power...it has nothing to do with the school it is the system.

[REM08]

Originally Posted by phideltdj

How can you say he didn't recruit well at Memphis or Umass...He turned mediocre programs into basketball powerhouses. Do you think Derrick Rose was not top player coming out of high school and picked Memphis and not UK, Duke, UNC..etc. Let's put it this way putting Cal at a program like UK is like putting Bonds on steriods...you already have a great program but now you have unbelievable. The point is if you put Cal at any school in the power ratings from 20-50 he will make them a basketball power...it has nothing to do with the school it is the system.

Agreed. Pitino has actually said on several occasions that what Cal did at Umass was one of the "three best program-building jobs in history."

[gator7_5]

bah, we'll whip that cat ass this yr and probably next and the yr after.

[BEH]

Originally Posted by phideltdj

How can you say he didn't recruit well at Memphis or Umass...He turned mediocre programs into basketball powerhouses. Do you think Derrick Rose was not top player coming out of high school and picked Memphis and not UK, Duke, UNC..etc. Let's put it this way putting Cal at a program like UK is like putting Bonds on steriods...you already have a great program but now you have unbelievable. The point is if you put Cal at any school in the power ratings from 20-50 he will make them a basketball power...it has nothing to do with the school it is the system.

Wow, what an attack based on no facts. Calipari turned Mass and Memphis around for sure but he was never able to line up talent like at Kentucky. He never won titles at Memphis and Umass.

Kentucky has every thing to do with Calipari's success, writ large. However, Calipari never signed 5 five star players in one year at Memphis.

It has everything to do with the school. Sorry to bust your bubble.

[GoGators1022]

Originally Posted by gator7_5

bah, we'll whip that cat ass this yr and probably next and the yr after.

Oh really? Just like we were supposed to last year and the year before that and the year before that one too? Whatever. UK owns us right now.

As to the original post, UK is dominating in recruiting because the product that is on the court wins championships and sends kids to the League. Cal is the best in the business and there is not a better fan base out there then UK basketball fans. They sell out in minutes for "practice", players are worshipped, and their fans travel better than any other program's fans. They have the best facilities and they play in the basketball Mecca: Rupp Arena.

[InstiGATOR1]

Originally Posted by UFG8rGuy3283

What is drawing these elite, top tier kids to Kentucky? Surely it's not just the 1 and done perspective, as there have been plenty of schools and coaches who have had 1 and dones who have gone to the NBA and I'm sure a ton of them sell starting/playing time to these kids.

What is drawing kids to UK is:

1. Players are going there and quickly going to the NBA. This is naturally the goal of almost all recruits.

2. There are usually no more-experienced players there to block recruits from playing time. Players also want minutes and UK can clearly offer them minutes. Even the top players know that more experienced players can get in their way. Other than Wiltjer and Cauley every outsider can see that Calipari has lived up to playing time promises.

BTW, I do not see UK getting Randle and if you are right about Wiggins then they will have missed on Parker, Randle and Wiggins this year, the top three guys probably. In my opinion UK is having a bit of a spotty recruiting year this year.

Still they will sign a bunch of 5 star players, but wouldn't you expect that from a basketball crazy school, that won the NCAA tourney a year ago where points 1 and 2 above have been true? I view all the social media and rapper at games a side issue at UK.

[UFG8rGuy3283]

Originally Posted by GoGators1022

Oh really? Just like we were supposed to last year and the year before that and the year before that one too? Whatever. UK owns us right now.

As to the original post, UK is dominating in recruiting because the product that is on the court wins championships and sends kids to the League. Cal is the best in the business and there is not a better fan base out there then UK basketball fans. They sell out in minutes for "practice", players are worshipped, and their fans travel better than any other program's fans. They have the best facilities and they play in the basketball Mecca: Rupp Arena.

So why don't other basketball powerhouses sell the same thing. For example, why doesn't Kansas and UNC simply upgrade their facilities to better than UK's, start recruiting 1 and dones every year and point to the multitude of successful players from both schools in the NBA?

I get that those advantages put UK ahead of schools like UF, but there has to be something more to it. I guess it really is Cal, the person and his system, that makes the difference along with the things you, Bert and REM have alluded to.

REM, to your earlier post, please know that I am not a conspiracy theorist when it comes to UK. I don't know what's going on there and hence my statement about other than the usual banter about cheating, why is this phenomina almost exclusive to UK and Cal? It is a successful model, no doubt. I guess more than anything I am trying to figure out why no other coach/school has tried to replicate it?

[tommyuf21]

Agents, runners and AAU coaches dictate where most of the top players go.

The agents are in the ear of the top recruits when they are 14-15 years old, guiding them and their parents to both of their pay days.

Most coaches, including Billy, are very reticent to speak up about it because they will get completely shut out of players. The few coaches that do what these people want to the letter, like Cal and K, get their pick.

From an ESPN article in 2009:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/column...ndy&id=4479770

"The reality is that agents are around a lot of kids," Florida coach Billy Donovan said. "But I've always believed in recruiting that you've got to keep good relationships with people, anybody. I don't want an agent saying don't go to Florida.

"The thing that is difficult is that agents aren't living under any of the rules as it relates to contacts. We have rules for contacting a player, but an agent can do it as much as he wants and can go over to his house. We can't do those things."

Donovan said the agent has the kind of offseason contact that is not allowed for college coaches. That may change in 2010 if a new NCAA rule is passed that allows college coaches to work with their players as long as they're in summer school for a required amount of hours.

[NorthCaptivaGator]

Originally Posted by BEH

Wow, what an attack based on no facts. Calipari turned Mass and Memphis around for sure but he was never able to line up talent like at Kentucky. He never won titles at Memphis and Umass.

Kentucky has every thing to do with Calipari's success, writ large. However, Calipari never signed 5 five star players in one year at Memphis.

It has everything to do with the school. Sorry to bust your bubble.

were Tubby and Billy recruiting for a different school then?

[REM08]

Originally Posted by NorthCaptivaGator

were Tubby and Billy recruiting for a different school then?

With all respect to others' feelings on the matter, I think differently on this. Cal's the cake right now and his current school is the icing.

Most recruits commit because of a coach, not a program or a university. While I'll agree that UK has a lot of other stuff going for it, it still doesn't outweigh the influence Calipari has. Kentucky's next coach won't recruit like this, neither will Florida's or whoever replaces Saban at Bama. Cal can recruit better at UK than elsewhere, just like Tubby could. Its also worth pointing out that the facilities are much much better now than during the tenures of past coaches. Still though...

[UFG8rGuy3283]

Originally Posted by REM08

With all respect to others' feelings on the matter, I think differently on this. Cal's the cake right now and his current school is the icing.

Most recruits commit because of a coach, not a program or a university. While I'll agree that UK has a lot of other stuff going for it, it still doesn't outweigh the influence Calipari has. Kentucky's next coach won't recruit like this, neither will Florida's or whoever replaces Saban at Bama. Cal can recruit better at UK than elsewhere, just like Tubby could. Its also worth pointing out that the facilities are much much better now than during the tenures of past coaches. Still though...

I agree for the most part that the real catalyst here is Cal. Being at a school like UK takes his recruiting to another level.

He has something that the others just don't have right now, regardless of what that is. He seems to be the premier recruiter in college basketball and it's not even close.

Jeff shared this link with me www.coachcal.com, which is Cal's official website. One of the places where his website really differs from many coaches (see coachbillydonovan.com or jimboeheim.com or rickpitino.com or coachk.com although Coach K and Pitino's are the most similar I have found to Cal's) is that it's not really as much as UK as it is Cal himself.

Bear with me for a second. Billy's website, for example, takes you to Gator Zone. Cal's has a link to UK athletics and talks about the team, but it's about so much more than that. It is really well done and put together masterfully. When people say that Cal is a master of social media and the internet when it comes to recruiting, this is a great example.

There are some big name coaches that don't even have their own website per say. For example, Howland and Roy Boy have pages, but Howland's is more of a UCLA bio than anything and Roy's centers around his basketball camp.

I'm not saying this is either good or bad. But obviously, if you spend a little time on Cal's website, you see it's more about promoting himself than the University of Kentucky and I think this plays in to a lot of what you're saying REM. This is more about Cal than it is about the program. Does it help that he is at a premier basketball school like UK. Well, of course. But the man, himself, is an absolute master of self promotion and he just seems to have a way of connecting with 15, 16, 17 year old high school kids.

I don't know exactly what he is selling in his pitches or if it's his mastery of relationships with handlers, AAU coaches or parents, but he's got it down to a science and, honestly, it pisses me off LOL

[tampajack1]

Originally Posted by REM08

With all respect to others' feelings on the matter, I think differently on this. Cal's the cake right now and his current school is the icing.

Most recruits commit because of a coach, not a program or a university. While I'll agree that UK has a lot of other stuff going for it, it still doesn't outweigh the influence Calipari has. Kentucky's next coach won't recruit like this, neither will Florida's or whoever replaces Saban at Bama. Cal can recruit better at UK than elsewhere, just like Tubby could. Its also worth pointing out that the facilities are much much better now than during the tenures of past coaches. Still though...

I completely agree. However, I also think that Cal is unethical and is as egotistical as they come. UK is a team I rooted for back in the Joe B. Hall, Pitino and Tubby days, except when they played the Gators. I don't root for them anymore. the combination of arrogant fans and Calipari have put UK at the top of my list of teams in any sport that I despise.

[REM08]

Originally Posted by UFG8rGuy3283

So why don't other basketball powerhouses sell the same thing. For example, why doesn't Kansas and UNC simply upgrade their facilities to better than UK's, start recruiting 1 and dones every year and point to the multitude of successful players from both schools in the NBA?

I get that those advantages put UK ahead of schools like UF, but there has to be something more to it. I guess it really is Cal, the person and his system, that makes the difference along with the things you, Bert and REM have alluded to.

REM, to your earlier post, please know that I am not a conspiracy theorist when it comes to UK. I don't know what's going on there and hence my statement about other than the usual banter about cheating, why is this phenomina almost exclusive to UK and Cal? It is a successful model, no doubt. I guess more than anything I am trying to figure out why no other coach/school has tried to replicate it?

You ask a good question, but my answer runs the risk of sounding like a huge UK homer. IMO, coaches like Williams and Self aren't nearly the draw that Calipari is when it comes to the perception of recruits. Be honest and tell me you'd pick Kansas or UNC over UK right now if you're a top recruit. Keep in mind you're 17 years old and just saw the ESPN all access Kentucky show.

Honestly, and this actually wont' make me seem like a homer, Cal is also benefiting right now from a good deal of hype. I think even NBA scouts and recruiting services buy into this sometimes.

Furthermore, I think different coaches just want to use different strategies. I've heard quotes from several coaches (this year) talking about how they admire what Cal does with a young team, but they wouldn't want to have to start over like he does every year. Themes like 'more power to him, but I like to have more continuity...'

There's another side also, good example is ND's Mike Brey's comment that he'd love to land multiple one-and-done kids every year but just doesn't get them. There aren't THAT many one and done caliber players in every class. Not all top coaches could do this even if they wanted to. If Donovan had had his way with this class he would have landed four players with that potential and I don't doubt he would have been okay with all four of them leaving after a year if he thought it was in their best interest. Just for curiosity's sake, picture next years class containing Parker, Randle, Walker and Hill. Lets say they are all in a position to leave after one year. Then combine them with the players you'd be losing anyway. Since we're dreaming, lets say that includes Young. You think Billy is going to avoid taking multiple top players the year after? Also, remember Cal got to Lexington and cleaned house scholarship wise. He started in a position that most coaches don't naturally find themselves in.

Of this years top 15 recruits, Kansas offered 9, Florida 6 and Zona 5. Imagine what those numbers would look like if every coach in the nation had just lost their top 6 scorers from the year before.

[REM08]

To address a couple of the above posts:

UFG8trGuy - Interesting breakdown of other coaches websites. I wasn't aware of much of that. I agree with your assessment of the social media component - even with how Cal-centric it is. Most UK fans dont' have a problem with this aspect of Cal, but some do. His website was even a point of contention with the Athletic Department when they were negotiating his contract. I think he "gets it" when it comes to recruits these days. I think elite high school basketball is producing different kids than it used to. Not as many egos needing stroking and kids who are more used to playing with and against the best. Many recruits actually comment that Cal calls them less than any other coach. One even mentioned Cal told him "I'll call you every day if you want, but I'm 50 and you're 17. What are we going to talk about?" He also doesn't make promises of PT or shots etc (most every recruit has commented on this). I think this actually appeals to the most competitive recruits and think some recruits these days are actually turned off by the coach wanting to pander to them (I'm not saying Billy does any of this by the way).

Also, I'm not sure if this video ever circulated around here like the dorm renovations did, but this one is of the new locker room - http://www.coachcal.com/19331/2012/1...a-locker-room/

TampaJack - I don't think everyone should like Kentucky or think that Cal is likeable to all. I just got back from a trip to New Jersey where I talked to my Uncle who absolutely hates UK. He did mention, however, that while he's a huge Yankees fan, he understands why other people might not like them. I can say the same thing for Kentucky. I disagree about your ethical comment and think the evidence (that we have at least) supports this. I don't have proof or anything and I can also see how it'd be easy to scratch your head when seeing someone have so much success recruiting. I actually think it can be good for a sport when the top team (or one of them) is polarizing. It makes everyone care a little more - love or hate. I can honestly say that were I a fan of another team, I would respect what Cal is doing, but I would probably cheer against his team.

[tommyuf21]

Originally Posted by REM08

Just for curiosity's sake, picture next years class containing Parker, Randle, Walker and Hill. Lets say they are all in a position to leave after one year. Then combine them with the players you'd be losing anyway. Since we're dreaming, lets say that includes Young. You think Billy is going to avoid taking multiple top players the year after? Also, remember Cal got to Lexington and cleaned house scholarship wise. He started in a position that most coaches don't naturally find themselves in.

Of this years top 15 recruits, Kansas offered 9, Florida 6 and Zona 5. Imagine what those numbers would look like if every coach in the nation had just lost their top 6 scorers from the year before.

In the early 2000's, Donovan went after more guys that were highly rated. He got burned on many of them, like Kwame Brown (who never set foot in Gainesville).

He began looking for more guys who were likely to hang around a year or two or three; such as Horford, Noah, Green, Humphrey, Richard, etc.

It seems like he's turned back to his earlier strategy with Walker and Hill. I think the pressure to compete with Cal has changed things to a certain extent, although I doubt that you would get him to admit that.

[tupacbiff]

Rem08- so what you are saying is that Cal cheats? Has a criminal
On staff? Right?