Gun Control

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by Minister_of_Information

Teachers are never going to be, as a group, competent with firearms. Try to let that sink in.

It's true, like all other law-abiding gun owners, when a bad guy appears, they'll just freeze ... and the bad guy will simply wrest the gun away and kill all the children.

It's a dream scenario for people who want to shoot lots of children. They won't even have to bring guns to the sites to do it!

[Minister_of_Information]

Originally Posted by MichaelJoeWilliamson

I am not asserting that strawman either, MOI. But allow me to introduce an strawman of my own; I wonder if any of those slain teachers think they might have been better served have a weapon handy?

Quite naturally the problem lies in extrapolating that answer into a universal policy. As a number of events that are not random mass shootings can and do occur in the classroom with much more frequency, and many of them would not be improved with a firearm.

[LeafUF]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

Can you imagine all the classroom massacres, in Israel, that result from Israeli schoolchildren wrestling guns away from their teachers and killing all their classmates with them ?

Dream, teachers at my school did not carry in the classrooms. Only when we left campus. But we also had a gate at the entrance to our school with an armed guard.

[Minister_of_Information]

Originally Posted by MichaelJoeWilliamson

Mmmmm.....I have been a teacher. I am also competent with firearms.

Another unfounded assertion.

While we're giving out logic lessons, that is called a red herring.

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

Originally Posted by LeafUF

... it was that they are thoroughly trained where as most American educators are not.

That is not what you first asserted. But no matter.

What could be done...hmmmm..maybe, oh I don't know, TRAIN the teachers that want to be trained to use weapons?

Nahhh....teachers are not capable of being trained to be competent with weapons. Just ask MOI.

[The_Graygator]

Originally Posted by Minister_of_Information

Actually, I happen to own a black rifle, a tactical shotgun, a sniper configured .308 with a collapsing bipod, several automatic handguns with greater than 10 round capacity, PVS7 Gen III+ NVG, and several thousand rounds of ammunition to go along with about 50 5.56 30 round magazines. I also happen to think that a well regulated militia is a necessary element of national security. And I manage to do all that without supposing that armed teachers will lead to fewer firearms deaths in schools. My congratulations on your prodigies of self deception. You see it isn't logically necessary to hold black and white views on guns. They are dangerous, and must be regulated. They are also inimical to tyranny. And while I mourn the innocent loss of life and favor commonsense proposals that might actually make a difference, at the end of the day give me liberty or give me death.

So you own all of these weapons, then using a broad broash and a very b&w view of your own classify anyone who owns weapons as "lacking common sense", then why do you think your opinion here is valid?

You're all over the place here Minister. You sound like Obama trying to say he thought Benghazi was a terror attack after telling everybody for two weeks it was caused by a video.

[Minister_of_Information]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

It's true, like all other law-abiding gun owners, when a bad guy appears, they'll just freeze ... and the bad guy will simply wrest the gun away and kill all the children.

It's a dream scenario for people who want to shoot lots of children. They won't even have to bring guns to the sites to do it!

Dream, what about all the other non-mass shooting scenarios in the classroom, are they also going to be improved with guns? Do you favor warning shots for talking back for instance?

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

Originally Posted by Minister_of_Information

While we're giving out logic lessons, that is called a red herring.

Not all all. You are the one that made the original assertion. It sounded to me that you extrapolated your assertion to include ALL teachers.

I gave you one example to contradicted your assertion.

Perfectly reasonable way of conducting a debate.

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

Originally Posted by Minister_of_Information

Quite naturally the problem lies in extrapolating that answer into a universal policy. As a number of events that are not random mass shootings can and do occur in the classroom with much more frequency, and many of them would not be improved with a firearm.

I do no make my assertion "universal." I merely suggest that teachers be given the opportunity to carry weapons to school. Like they do in Israel, and have since 1974. The ones that chose to avail themselves of that protection could, and probably should be required to take training. And of course be subject to all of the other safeguards in place for owning firearms.

[Minister_of_Information]

Originally Posted by The_Graygator

So you own all of these weapons, then using a broad broash and a very b&w view of your own classify anyone who owns weapons as "lacking common sense", then why do you think your opinion here is valid?

You're all over the place here Minister. You sound like Obama trying to say he thought Benghazi was a terror attack after telling everybody for two weeks it was caused by a video.

Gray, perhaps a quote and parsing might be in order. That's a nice way of saying that you appear to have had difficulty comprehending what I wrote.

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by LeafUF

Dream, teachers at my school did not carry in the classrooms. Only when we left campus. But we also had a gate at the entrance to our school with an armed guard.

There you go. And how much would that set back a school to hire a fricking armed guard ? Of course then the guards would unionize and want cushy pensions.

Of course if a bad guy did come to the gate, the guard would just freeze, the bad guy would wrestle the gun away, kill the guard then, conveniently, will have acquired a firearm to do what he wanted to do - kill all the children.

[Minister_of_Information]

Originally Posted by MichaelJoeWilliamson

Not all all. You are the one that made the original assertion. It sounded to me that you extrapolated your assertion to include ALL teachers.

I gave you one example to contradicted your assertion.

Perfectly reasonable way of conducting a debate.

You should sound it out better. Teachers "as a group" does not mean "each individual."

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by Minister_of_Information

Dream, what about all the other non-mass shooting scenarios in the classroom, are they also going to be improved with guns? Do you favor warning shots for talking back for instance?

It's true, a law-abiding, gun-trained teacher would just take to firing off shots for no good reason. After all, if a law-abiding person who loves children has a gun strapped to them, their first impulse would be to use it on children, right ?

[GatrHeel]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

There you go. And how much would that set back a school to hire a fricking armed guard ? Of course then the guards would unionize and want cushy pensions.

Of course if a bad guy did come to the gate, the guard would just freeze, the bad guy would wrestle the gun away, kill the guard then, conveniently, will have acquired a firearm to do what he wanted to do - kill all the children.

An answer was proposed in this thread:

Originally Posted by 407Gator

Of course it would have been less likely / stopped sooner BUT your cure may be worse than the problem. There are about 130,000 public schools in the United States. Adding one armed guard to every school would cost $7.8 billion dollars (at $60k per guard).

At that rate the potential 20 lives saved would work out to $390,000,000 each.

Even if it worked, it is too expensive.

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

Originally Posted by Minister_of_Information

You should sound it out better. Teachers "as a group" does not mean "each individual."

You still need to prove your assertion.

[Minister_of_Information]

Originally Posted by MichaelJoeWilliamson

I do no make my assertion "universal." I merely suggest that teachers be given the opportunity to carry weapons to school. Like they do in Israel, and have since 1974. The ones that chose to avail themselves of that protection could, and probably should be required to take training. And of course be subject to all of the other safeguards in place for owning firearms.

The classroom is a potentially emotional, even confrontational environment. The teacher is frequently distracted not to mention severely outnumbered. Numerous acts of violence occur in class all the time. Teachers talents lie in empathy and caring not in security. It's just asking for trouble, and furthermore there is zero chance of it happening. It makes gun proponents sound stupid, which is unfortunate. I say, arm the administrators so the target is no longer soft. That will deter most of these incidents, and provide a means of dealing with those not deterred in a timely fashion.

[Minister_of_Information]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

It's true, a law-abiding, gun-trained teacher would just take to firing off shots for no good reason. After all, if a law-abiding person who loves children has a gun strapped to them, their first impulse would be to use it on children, right ?

They would never sleep with their students either.

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by GatrHeel

An answer was proposed in this thread:

Seems like it would be less expensive to just disband the government school system. Trillions would be saved and our children would be smarter and safer. As of now, we dumb-down children at slaughter pins called 'Gun-Free Zones.'

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

Originally Posted by Minister_of_Information

The classroom is a potentially emotional, even confrontational environment. The teacher is frequently distracted not to mention severely outnumbered. Numerous acts of violence occur in class all the time. Teachers talents lie in empathy and caring not in security. It's just asking for trouble, and furthermore there is zero chance of it happening. It makes gun proponents sound stupid, which is unfortunate. I say, arm the administrators so the target is no longer soft. That will deter most of these incidents, and provide a means of dealing with those not deterred in a timely fashion.

This sounds a lot like the reasoning that was used when Florida and other states went from "can issue" gun laws to "shall issue" gun laws. Carnage was predicted. Never happened. The overwhelming incidents of gun violence are not committed by people lawfully carrying a CCP or a lawfully purchased gun

You make what would probably prove to be be a similarly overwrought claim.

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by Minister_of_Information

They would never sleep with their students either.

Well, that's just ANOTHER reason to disband the government school system. That way, our children would be smarter, safer and remain chaste for longer.