Gun Control

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

Originally Posted by zoltanuf

Teachers carrying guns is a practice that wouldn't last long. I remember all the physical violence from my middle and HS days - wild out of control passion with teachers in the middle of it trying to stop it. It would get messy to say the least. Can you imagine how often a gun could get in the hands of someone out of control in these situations? Where before, these incidents ended in bruises/injuries, now some would end in death (from a teacher's gun). The resulting media frenzy? Hmmm.

Yea, it happens all the time

[The_Graygator]

Originally Posted by zoltanuf

Teachers carrying guns is a practice that wouldn't last long. I remember all the physical violence from my middle and HS days - wild out of control passion with teachers in the middle of it trying to stop it. It would get messy to say the least. Can you imagine how often a gun could get in the hands of someone out of control in these situations? Where before, these incidents ended in bruises/injuries, now some would end in death (from a teacher's gun). The resulting media frenzy? Hmmm.

Any teacher who'd been properly trained by law enforcement would not bring a gun into a hallway fight situation. One of the major things you are taught in CCW and firearm-usage courses is how to prevent someone from taking your gun away from you or losing it in a situation like this.

Grasping for straws here folks...

Next....

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by zoltanuf

If by "these things" you mean the incidents I described in the post you quoted, then yes.

I agree. Just make schools Gun-Free Zones and these sorts of things won't happen.

Also, cops need to stop carry guns too. Can you imagine how easily angry spouses could swipe the gun and just use it to dispatch the other spouse ? People in authority with guns are NOT the answer!

[Dreamliner]

We need stringent gun-control laws, like the UK, so that gun violence will only increase 89% over the next decade.

[The_Graygator]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

I agree. Just make schools Gun-Free Zones and these sorts of things won't happen.

Also, cops need to stop carry guns too. Can you imagine how easily angry spouses could swipe the gun and just use it to dispatch the other spouse ? People in authority with guns are NOT the answer!

What's really scary is something in your posted here Dream. Just imagine if it was ONLY the govt. (people in authority), that had the guns, which is want Obama and his progressive/socialist pals want anyway.

[Minister_of_Information]

Originally Posted by The_Graygator

That's pretty arrogant and typically liberal of you.

If you don't want to learn about something you're opposed to, then just say it up front and remain blissfully ignorant and don't waste my time.

Lacking common? I think lunatics shooting defensless, innocent children is lacking common sense.

Remember, this wasn't a responsible, trained, licensed, law-abiding gun owner who killed those kids... it was someone who stole the guns, killed their legal owner, and then used them to kill with in a place where guns weren't allowed.

Really Minister, if you're going to debate this, respond with something that isn't so weak as just accusing all gun-owners as nut-cases and "lacking common sense".

Actually, I happen to own a black rifle, a tactical shotgun, a sniper configured .308 with a collapsing bipod, several automatic handguns with greater than 10 round capacity, PVS7 Gen III+ NVG, and several thousand rounds of ammunition to go along with about 50 5.56 30 round magazines. I also happen to think that a well regulated militia is a necessary element of national security. And I manage to do all that without supposing that armed teachers will lead to fewer firearms deaths in schools. My congratulations on your prodigies of self deception. You see it isn't logically necessary to hold black and white views on guns. They are dangerous, and must be regulated. They are also inimical to tyranny. And while I mourn the innocent loss of life and favor commonsense proposals that might actually make a difference, at the end of the day give me liberty or give me death.

[LeafUF]

Originally Posted by MichaelJoeWilliamson

Yea, it happens all the time

Like I said in the other thread, its hard to compare to what they do in Israel. That may or may not be a teacher, it could be a parent or an off duty member of the IDF. Either way, nearly the entire population in Israel serves for 2-3 years and then many remain as reserves up until age 45 I believe.

[Minister_of_Information]

Originally Posted by MichaelJoeWilliamson

Strawman, they name is MOI, part duex.

Who said anything about gun wielding teachers being a "panacea?"

MJW, how else would you describe the idea that all situations can be made safer with the introduction of CCW?

[zoltanuf]

Originally Posted by The_Graygator

Any teacher who'd been properly trained by law enforcement would not bring a gun into a hallway fight situation. One of the major things you are taught in CCW and firearm-usage courses is how to prevent someone from taking your gun away from you or losing it in a situation like this. Grasping for straws here folks... Next....

You're the one naively grasping at straws by vastly inflating the competence and abilities of the people who would be involved in such situations and dismissing the messy realities of how flawed and fallible ordinary people are. We're talking public school teachers here, not Jason Bourne.

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

Originally Posted by LeafUF

Like I said in the other thread, its hard to compare to what they do in Israel. That may or may not be a teacher, it could be a parent or an off duty member of the IDF. Either way, nearly the entire population in Israel serves for 2-3 years and then many remain as reserves up until age 45 I believe.

In Israel, teachers have been allowed to carry weapons to school since 1974, when a school was attacked by armed terrorists.

This information is readily available on google.

[mdgator05]

Originally Posted by The_Graygator

LOL A "scientist"? Lets hear this from a real expert on weapons and their use and maybe I'll be impressed. A Navy Seal perhaps?

My argument stands up fine, and I don't need a "scientist" most likely using his own agenda to tell me otherwise.

I don't care much for the link because I've seen it (and many like it), before. "Gun owners" or "gun shooters" are variable terms.

Accidental discharges and shootings are a signifigant part of those gun owners being shot too. A lot of those are people who are handling weapons and don't even know how to.

Another factor, and the largest btw, are outright criminals who have (or "own"), guns shooting and killing each other, and IMO, I don't even consider those who illegally possess firearms and use them against others as "gun owners".

And this is the problem with many Conservatives in this day and age. If a researcher with expertise on the subject (the author is a biostatistician that studies violence) tell them something they don't want to hear, that person must be wrong and worthy of mocking. They make this declaration without knowing anything about the research or even having the ability to evaluate their research. This is how you end up with situations like what happened with the Republicans burying their head in the sand on polling prior to the election.

As the author of the paper and I both stated, there are a variety of causal factors that need to be worked out on why the aggregate stats are that huge. I would be shocked if there wasn't some level of endogeneity. The author has started in on a research stream of the relationship between green space and violence, but I do hope he comes back to this research to develop the causal factors more thoroughly.

[Minister_of_Information]

Originally Posted by The_Graygator

We're not talking about "random CCW permit holders" here Minister, we're talking about teachers who have recieved proper training in firearmd use and tactics. there's a big difference, no matter how much you try to word-play it.

Btw, I have been allowed by the parents of some of my friends to show their teens how to properly handle and fire a weapon. Those kids grew up to be responsible gun owners and CCW permit owners too.

Teachers are never going to be, as a group, competent with firearms. Try to let that sink in.

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

Originally Posted by Minister_of_Information

MJW, how else would you describe the idea that all situations can be made safer with the introduction of CCW?

I am not asserting that strawman either, MOI. But allow me to introduce an strawman of my own; I wonder if any of those slain teachers think they might have been better served have a weapon handy?

[Dreamliner]

Can you imagine all the classroom massacres, in Israel, that result from Israeli schoolchildren wrestling guns away from their teachers and killing all their classmates with them ?

[Minister_of_Information]

Originally Posted by MichaelJoeWilliamson

Strawman, thy name is MOI.

You should explain how a hypothetical question is a strawman.

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

Originally Posted by Minister_of_Information

Teachers are never going to be, as a group, competent with firearms. Try to let that sink in.

Mmmmm.....I have been a teacher. I am also competent with firearms.

Another unfounded assertion.

[Lawdog88]

Originally Posted by Minister_of_Information

Actually, I happen to own a black rifle, a tactical shotgun, a sniper configured .308 with a collapsing bipod, several automatic handguns with greater than 10 round capacity, PVS7 Gen III+ NVG, and several thousand rounds of ammunition to go along with about 50 5.56 30 round magazines. I also happen to think that a well regulated militia is a necessary element of national security. And I manage to do all that without supposing that armed teachers will lead to fewer firearms deaths in schools. My congratulations on your prodigies of self deception. You see it isn't logically necessary to hold black and white views on guns. They are dangerous, and must be regulated. They are also inimical to tyranny. And while I mourn the innocent loss of life and favor commonsense proposals that might actually make a difference, at the end of the day give me liberty or give me death.

Frickin' gun nut !

Like I said elsewhere, I prefer terrorist-trained, fully armed school resource officers to be posted at schools. And I am deadly serious.

Like in Israel, we would get used to it.

That is not a as much a concession to terrorism, as it is a realistic appraisal of the world we live in. Politically, we have helped it become that way, but that is a discussion for another thread.

[LeafUF]

Originally Posted by MichaelJoeWilliamson

In Israel, teachers have been allowed to carry weapons to school since 1974, when a school was attacked by armed terrorists.

This information is readily available on google.

I dont need Google, I went to school there. And when we left school for field trips we were accompanied by armed soldiers as well as our teachers, some of whom carried and others that did not. That was not the point of my post, it was that they are thoroughly trained where as most American educators are not.

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

Originally Posted by Minister_of_Information

You should explain how a hypothetical question is a strawman.

You are the one making extraordinary claims. The burden of proof lies with you.