Point guard situation this year vs. last year

[madgator]

Originally Posted by akaGatorhoops

I can't imagine that you do not see how transparent your own arguement is.
If put into dilogue, it would sound something like this:

"Yeah, Erv is doing okay now... but wait. Ok, we are winning, but waaaait. Sure, I know he broke the assist record, but you'll see. Just wait.
Yeah.... we are in the tourney again, but wait.
Alright, Sweet 16, but hold on. Yup... Elite 8, but give it some time.
Aha!!! I told you! We lost!!! I KNEW it!".

I am not trying to bust your stones on this again, but the notion that you were some kind of sooth-sayer is a bit ridiculous. By your own admssion, the Walker-led teams exceeded your overall expectations. Yet, when they did come up short, you used it as a 'gotcha moment' to prove a point that didn't exist.

The truth is, a significant portion of your analysis regarding Erv has always been valid. But there is a sizeable portion that ignores personal and team achievement, defers successes, highlights losses and assigns personal blame. It that with which I disagree.

Fair enough. But it's a simple case of an obvious fatal flaw, an Achilles heel if you will, that you just know is going to lead to your downfall at some point.

if it wasn't for the fact that our Elite 8 losses in both games were primarily guard related. Quick shots with the lead inside 5 minutes, bad passes, bad defense etc. your point against me would carry more weight.

but the fact remains that both the Butler and the Louisville losses were in large part directly the result of our guards not doing what they needed to do to protect a late game lead. Both offensively and defensively.

The fatal flaw was exploited and my points shouldn't be condemned or minimized just because I was giving credit where I felt credit was due.

[akaGatorhoops]

Originally Posted by madgator

Fair enough. But it's a simple case of an obvious fatal flaw, an Achilles heel if you will, that you just know is going to lead to your downfall at some point.

if it wasn't for the fact that our Elite 8 losses in both games were primarily guard related. Quick shots with the lead inside 5 minutes, bad passes, bad defense etc. your point against me would carry more weight.

but the fact remains that both the Butler and the Louisville losses were in large part directly the result of our guards not doing what they needed to do to protect a late game lead. Both offensively and defensively.

The fatal flaw was exploited and my points shouldn't be condemned or minimized just because I was giving credit where I felt credit was due.

I noticed you used the plural form. . . guards. Yet nearly all of your crituque seems to be reserved for one.

Anyway, we have had this debate a thousand times. We agree on more than you think.

I believe you may have read this, but if not. . . I wrote much of the counter-points with you in mind!

http://www.gatorcountry.com/basketba...g_walker/14816

[rserina]

I wish the mods would just hack this dude's posts. They clutter the board with his pointless invective against an ex-Gator and go over the same stuff repeatedly even where his argument is pretty irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I think everybody here knows how he feels and why, so I don't see the need in derailing a thread in which the opening poster went out of his way to avoid this stupid Walker spat. When thread starters have to include a proviso to keep a poster from ruining the discussion, isn't that a bad sign? Can we sign a board petition or something for moderators to eliminate any post where he refers to Walker or point guard play in general? Then we can see if he has anything else to contribute other than incendiary provocation.

[gatorbogey]

some/all of these extended debates are tiresome, for sure. you can see how the hatfields and mccoys can go on and on and on. people get their egos attached to their opinions and it can be problematic. not sure i'd advocate any sort of censorship, though.

[tupacbiff]

Originally Posted by rserina

I wish the mods would just hack this dude's posts. They clutter the board with his pointless invective against an ex-Gator and go over the same stuff repeatedly even where his argument is pretty irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I think everybody here knows how he feels and why, so I don't see the need in derailing a thread in which the opening poster went out of his way to avoid this stupid Walker spat. When thread starters have to include a proviso to keep a poster from ruining the discussion, isn't that a bad sign? Can we sign a board petition or something for moderators to eliminate any post where he refers to Walker or point guard play in general? Then we can see if he has anything else to contribute other than incendiary provocation.

Not saying I agree with him but if you don't like it put him on ignore and move on. I'm sure you wouldn't want someone eliminating all your posts on a single subject cause it's in the minority or others find it annoying that u chime in.

[madgator]

Originally Posted by rserina

I wish the mods would just hack this dude's posts. They clutter the board with his pointless invective against an ex-Gator and go over the same stuff repeatedly even where his argument is pretty irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I think everybody here knows how he feels and why, so I don't see the need in derailing a thread in which the opening poster went out of his way to avoid this stupid Walker spat. When thread starters have to include a proviso to keep a poster from ruining the discussion, isn't that a bad sign? Can we sign a board petition or something for moderators to eliminate any post where he refers to Walker or point guard play in general? Then we can see if he has anything else to contribute other than incendiary provocation.

The point of the thread was to compare last years guard play to this years guard play. How is this accomplished without criticism? Obviously, the OP is insinuating that there is improvement over last year. So where does that improvement come from? What are the distinctions. Inherent to the exercise of comparison is criticism.

Plus, I think that quite a few will agree that we are able to come to better conclusions and understandings by hashing through disagreements and the good and bad of all aspects. Debate and the open dissemination of all ideas IS A GOOD THING.

otherwise, this board would be simplistic and dull. like a UK board

also, I'm sort of interested to read you say that I would have nothing else to contribute other than "incendiary provocation."

we've had some decent back and forth on quite a few diverse basketball topics over the years that had nothing to do with Gator point guard play.

[madgator]

Originally Posted by akaGatorhoops

I noticed you used the plural form. . . guards. Yet nearly all of your crituque seems to be reserved for one.

Anyway, we have had this debate a thousand times. We agree on more than you think.

I believe you may have read this, but if not. . . I wrote much of the counter-points with you in mind!

http://www.gatorcountry.com/basketba...g_walker/14816

Yes guards.....Boynton is guilty at times as well. Just don't find him to be "that preferred phrase" overall.

So it doesn't bother me as much.

[ncg8or]

Without Erv the Gators would not have made the Great 8 the last 2 seasons, no doubt he was the heart of those 2 teams.

[madgator]

Originally Posted by ncg8or

Without Erv the Gators would not have made the Great 8 the last 2 seasons, no doubt he was the heart of those 2 teams.

I'll leave it alone

[MJGator8104]

Personally, I believe that if WY had been available, we would have moved to the Final Four and possibly even to the NC game regardless of our backcourt situation...

[madgator]

Originally Posted by MJGator8104

Personally, I believe that if WY had been available, we would have moved to the Final Four and possibly even to the NC game regardless of our backcourt situation...

Fair enough possibility. Don't know if I agree....but it's a fair assumption

[BKLYNgator]

its pretty clear that collectively our guard situation is better. KB, SW and Rosario have improved (especially the last 2) and Frazier has been a pleasant surprise. Having that depth and versatility i think raises everyone's performance. Now Prather and WY are a force on both ends . . .not guards but also helps the backcourt.

defensively i would like to see what happens when we face an elite PG. obviously SW is better defender than EW, but not sure how much either him or KB have been truly tested this year.
Is the team better this year??? it definately appears that way, but championships are not won in November and December. We'll see when crunch time comes around and how far we advance.

[akaGatorhoops]

Originally Posted by MJGator8104

Personally, I believe that if WY had been available, we would have moved to the Final Four and possibly even to the NC game regardless of our backcourt situation...

I agree with this.
I said at the time that it was a very understated loss. Even though he has improved, Will was still a very important part of the team a year ago. We missed him dearly in the tourney, imo.

[maxgator]

Oh... Hey... A new topic!!! Glad this hasn't been raised before....

[NorthCaptivaGator]

Originally Posted by BKLYNgator

its pretty clear that collectively our guard situation is better. KB, SW and Rosario have improved (especially the last 2) and Frazier has been a pleasant surprise. Having that depth and versatility i think raises everyone's performance. Now Prather and WY are a force on both ends . . .not guards but also helps the backcourt.

defensively i would like to see what happens when we face an elite PG. obviously SW is better defender than EW, but not sure how much either him or KB have been truly tested this year.
Is the team better this year??? it definately appears that way, but championships are not won in November and December. We'll see when crunch time comes around and how far we advance.

I find it pretty amazing how well Rosario, Scottie and Frazier have made up not only for the loss of Walker but also of the #3 pick in the draft, Frazier is actually playing better than Beal did for the pre SEC season, though it must be said that we were asking much more of Beal at the time and he struggled with turnovers and defense trying to play the 3 at the college level, at least initially. I think the only thing I see us missing is the chemistry that existed between Walker and Kenny, having played three years together, they each always knew where the other would be and it got Kenny a lot of open looks, he has struggled the most with Erv's absence, it seems, but I am sure that he Scottie and Rosario will get a better feel for each other as the season rolls on and he has already taken advantage of the improved defense, being the guy on the receiving end of some fast break opportunities,