Karl Towns to UK

[REM08]

Originally Posted by InstiGATOR1

Well,

1. I posted a link a while back about him having a 4.5 GPA, being class president and an honor student. So clearly if he stayed back at any time it was likely due to health problems or for athletic reasons.

2. I said earlier in this thread, I could not blame him. By that I mean for going to UK to play for a guy he already has played for who runs a successful program. That said Towns did not have the success playing for DR that Randle did playing for USA under Donovan. So Randle has more of a reason in my view to pick UF than Towns did for picking UK.

3. It will be interesting to see if UK can put together a good 2014 class. I do not see their 2013 class being very balanced yet. I think they need a PG and a big in that class assuming say Cauley come back.

I agree with much of what you said but wanted to give my take on two of your points.

2. No question Randle had more success than Towns did on their respective teams. However, Towns was playing as a 16 year old on the adult squad. In many respects, he was lucky to be on the team. After the Dominican's run was over, Cal contacted Coach K and set up a scrimmage with team USA and made sure to get Towns minutes towards the end of the game - where he matched up against Anthony Davis. I'm not saying Towns had a better experience than Randle, just that its not comparing apples to apples. Also, UK's primary recruiter (like Horford) is Dominican himself. Town's nationality seems to be something he's proud of. I'm not trying to suggest that you were saying he shouldn't have picked UK - just talking about the Randle/Towns comparison.

3. I'm not sure I agree with 2013's class not being balanced. I expect Wiltjer and Cauley to return (obviously Wiltjer). The class also has a project post player (Willis) and a highly rated post player (Lee). Two wings (Aaron Harrison and Young) and the highest rated point guard in the other Harrison twin. Recruiting rankings are one thing, I know, these guys will have to prove it on the court. To me, what this class hinges on and what takes it from a highly rated class to a potentially special one is Wiggins.

Like Gotham said earlier, there's no such thing as a perfect system. Cal's has more turnover but I don't think it has more risk if you define risk as the chances of having a team that just isn't good enough to compete for a championship. It requires freshmen developing quickly (or stepping onto campus already able to play well, whatever) and enough other pieces still being around. If the freshmen get it, and fit together with the returning players (hopefully some talented ones), then you see an elite team. If only one of those things happen, you see a pretty good team that could still compete for a title. If neither happen, you get what we've seen so far this year.

I honestly think those trying to project reasons to worry about UK's sustainability or future success are really just worrying unnecessarily. Maybe for some its wishful thinking (not saying instigator here btw), maybe for others just thinking Cal has been lucky. I judge a coach or system by looking at how many years a given team went into the tournament with a legit shot at winning and comparing it to how many years the coach/system did not produce a team with a legit shot at winning. I'm not saying What Cal is doing is the best - just that I don't see another system that is obviously better. Who knows, time will tell. If Cal's next 3 teams flop then I might have a different opinion at that point.

[bleedorangeblue]

Originally Posted by REM08

There are two seniors on the team (Mays, Beckam). Also, there are only twelve players on scholarship (Lanter is a walk-on, a recent addition). Another also, 3 of the 12 are walk-ons who are given a scholarship if one is available (Polson, Long, Malone). The conditions of their scholarships were made public and its been acknowledged that they have walk-on status should their scholarships become needed by a scholarship-intended player.

Noel, Poythress and Goodwin will have to pass up lottery picks if they want to return. Harrow and Cauley have made appearances in 1st round mock-drafts but who knows.

Quick math shows that if 2 graduate, 3 are conditional, and another 3 leave early in addition to the 1 currently unused scholarship - there will be 9 available for next year (assuming 3 leave).

So according to you and your mock drafts, Cal has taken 5 first round NBA draft picks and just completed the largest plunge since the AP poll began in 1990. If I was a Kentucky fan, I'd have some questions.

[REM08]

Originally Posted by bleedorangeblue

So according to you and your mock drafts, Cal has taken 5 first round NBA draft picks and just completed the largest plunge since the AP poll began in 1990. If I was a Kentucky fan, I'd have some questions.

If you were a Kentucky fan and had some questions, you'd be a delusional Kentucky fan. Don't worry though, you wouldn't be the only one.

[InstiGATOR1]

Originally Posted by REM08

I agree with much of what you said but wanted to give my take on two of your points.

2. No question Randle had more success than Towns did on their respective teams. However, Towns was playing as a 16 year old on the adult squad. In many respects, he was lucky to be on the team. After the Dominican's run was over, Cal contacted Coach K and set up a scrimmage with team USA and made sure to get Towns minutes towards the end of the game - where he matched up against Anthony Davis. I'm not saying Towns had a better experience than Randle, just that its not comparing apples to apples. Also, UK's primary recruiter (like Horford) is Dominican himself. Town's nationality seems to be something he's proud of. I'm not trying to suggest that you were saying he shouldn't have picked UK - just talking about the Randle/Towns comparison.

3. I'm not sure I agree with 2013's class not being balanced. I expect Wiltjer and Cauley to return (obviously Wiltjer). The class also has a project post player (Willis) and a highly rated post player (Lee). Two wings (Aaron Harrison and Young) and the highest rated point guard in the other Harrison twin. Recruiting rankings are one thing, I know, these guys will have to prove it on the court. To me, what this class hinges on and what takes it from a highly rated class to a potentially special one is Wiggins.

Like Gotham said earlier, there's no such thing as a perfect system. Cal's has more turnover but I don't think it has more risk if you define risk as the chances of having a team that just isn't good enough to compete for a championship. It requires freshmen developing quickly (or stepping onto campus already able to play well, whatever) and enough other pieces still being around. If the freshmen get it, and fit together with the returning players (hopefully some talented ones), then you see an elite team. If only one of those things happen, you see a pretty good team that could still compete for a title. If neither happen, you get what we've seen so far this year.

I honestly think those trying to project reasons to worry about UK's sustainability or future success are really just worrying unnecessarily. Maybe for some its wishful thinking (not saying instigator here btw), maybe for others just thinking Cal has been lucky. I judge a coach or system by looking at how many years a given team went into the tournament with a legit shot at winning and comparing it to how many years the coach/system did not produce a team with a legit shot at winning. I'm not saying What Cal is doing is the best - just that I don't see another system that is obviously better. Who knows, time will tell. If Cal's next 3 teams flop then I might have a different opinion at that point.

Well:

A. I agree that a 16/17 year old on the national team would expect different success than a 16/17 year old on the U18 team. That was not what I was discussing. I was discussing information sets of recruits and Randle knows more about playing and success for Donovan than Towns for Calipari. Towns really know little more about his success playing for Calipari than if he had never played for him. What Towns does know is what a Calipari practice is like, Calipari's style with players etc.

B. UK's 2013 class as I see it is, one big who I had forgotten about, 3 6'4" to 6'6" guys who are wings and one invited walkon. Now I know the recruiting guys all claim that one of the twins is a PG. Well like the 6'+ CB who shows up every year in football recruiting, I am not buying a guy with wing size as a college PG until it happens. Now I am wrong on this sometimes, I am old enough to have been skeptical that Earvin Johnson could play PG in college and he clearly could. But just last year we were hearing that Kyle Anderson was college PG and he is not as a Frosh. So I am skeptical that UK has a PG in its 2013 class.

C. This is the first Calipari year with no pre-Calipari upperclass players on the squad. This Calipari squad is basically the frosh which is why people are watching so closely. What will it be next year. Who comes back? Maybe Wiltjer but I would not say so based on going 1-11 in one game. Also if Wiltjer plays too few minutes, he made decide the dribble drive does not fit him and try another systems. I guess Cauley is coming back next year. Certainly Noel wants to go and Poythress and Goodwin will have fewer minutes if they come back as the Frosh signed command some minutes.

[StrangeGator]

On the upside, maybe this pushes a 2014 big man away from Kentucky and possibly in our direction.

[madgator]

it's going to take two years of letdowns in order for UK to question caliperi's method


a tournament whiff this year would be a good start

[dailydoublecat]

Originally Posted by madgator

it's going to take two years of letdowns in order for UK to question caliperi's method


a tournament whiff this year would be a good start

This Kentucky fan will never question the method. I want the best of the best and will take my lumps when /if they dont pan out. Kentucky will be fine in Feb/March--it will be ugly until then however, but Im prepared for it.

Jeff

[dailydoublecat]

Originally Posted by bleedorangeblue

So according to you and your mock drafts, Cal has taken 5 first round NBA draft picks and just completed the largest plunge since the AP poll began in 1990. If I was a Kentucky fan, I'd have some questions.

Polls are totally useless as are mock drafts--it is EARLY in the season. I think some people compare football to basketball too much. The basketball season has a ton of highs and lows. The key is to get your team playing great ball in Feb/March. If we continue to flounder and those 5 are chosen in the first round then that is a problem. Personally I dont see how many of those players are even REMOTELY ready for the NBA.

Harrow--cant figure out if he wants to work hard and hasnt shown one damn thing while at UK.
Noel--is decent, but still needs TONS of work.
Poythress--cant even drilbbe and finish in transition or half court----he may look like Tarzan but plays like Jane.
Goodwin- has thrown up more garbage shots and needs help shooting the ball, but he could go I suppose.
Cauley-Stein- RAWWWW--he ha sno idea what the hell he is doing!! he has talent, but when you are pushed away from the goal by players on Samford then the NBA could be a problem.

It will be fun to see how they progress.

Jeff

[madgator]

Originally Posted by dailydoublecat

This Kentucky fan will never question the method. I want the best of the best and will take my lumps when /if they dont pan out. Kentucky will be fine in Feb/March--it will be ugly until then however, but Im prepared for it.

Jeff

you do realize that the players that are going to your school really couldn't care less about your school.

it's just a matter of time before sanctions will be coming.

I had a conversation with a former Kentucky player in the NBA and I asked him point blank why he chose Kentucky over UF. "Because it's the fastest way to the league"

in his mind, he was already a pro who just had to bide his one season. don't think for a second that these kids aren't willing to take what they can, where they can, while they can.

I have little doubt that Cal will be out of your program within 5 years leaving the program in disgrace and in a state of disrepair.


There is nothing to be proud about in Kentucky basketball. You are basically the University of Miami of college basketball.

[gatordd]

Originally Posted by madgator

you do realize that the players that are going to your school really couldn't care less about your school.

it's just a matter of time before sanctions will be coming.

I had a conversation with a former Kentucky player in the NBA and I asked him point blank why he chose Kentucky over UF. "Because it's the fastest way to the league"

in his mind, he was already a pro who just had to bide his one season. don't think for a second that these kids aren't willing to take what they can, where they can, while they can.

I have little doubt that Cal will be out of your program within 5 years leaving the program in disgrace and in a state of disrepair.


There is nothing to be proud about in Kentucky basketball. You are basically the University of Miami of college basketball.

Harsh as hell!

[madgator]

Originally Posted by gatordd

Harsh as hell!

it's honest. I don't see how an alumni of that institution can be proud of what is going on there right now.

like most UMiami fans have no real ties to the university. so basically they are an extension of a pro fan base. who cares about academic standards, the kids actually going to school, the reflection of the institution, the protection of it's overall integrity.

just win. that's all that matters.

[REM08]

Originally Posted by madgator

it's honest. I don't see how an alumni of that institution can be proud of what is going on there right now.

like most UMiami fans have no real ties to the university. so basically they are an extension of a pro fan base. who cares about academic standards, the kids actually going to school, the reflection of the institution, the protection of it's overall integrity.

just win. that's all that matters.

You do realize you your trying to speak badly of a program by saying that recruits pick it because they think it'll land them in the NBA the fastest, right? You're right that UK players dont pick UK for their love of the university. Do tell me though, why to players pick Florida?

You have a chance to show objectivity here. You also have a chance to look like the most delusional romantic if you start talking about education and love of the university. Judging by your past on this board, I would be surprised if you managed a 3rd option that looked even worse.

[REM08]

Originally Posted by madgator

it's honest. I don't see how an alumni of that institution can be proud of what is going on there right now.

like most UMiami fans have no real ties to the university. so basically they are an extension of a pro fan base. who cares about academic standards, the kids actually going to school, the reflection of the institution, the protection of it's overall integrity.

just win. that's all that matters.

This article paints a different picture. The most recent graduation rate for UK mens basketball players (ones that don't play in the NBA) is 78%. It actually compares favorably to institutions that have good academic reputations

Men's NCAA Division 1 basketball players have one of the worst graduation rates in college sports, according to a study by the Institute for Diversity and Ethics in Sport. More than a dozen schools didn't graduate at least half their players in recent seasons, according to the study, which looked at how many players completed their degrees in six years. For instance, the University of Connecticut graduates 25% of its players; the University of Florida graduates 38%, Michigan 45%, and at Indiana it was 47%.

Those figures exclude star players who leave school early to play in the NBA.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/02/us/nca...ion/index.html

[madgator]

Originally Posted by REM08

You do realize you your trying to speak badly of a program by saying that recruits pick it because they think it'll land them in the NBA the fastest, right? You're right that UK players dont pick UK for their love of the university. Do tell me though, why to players pick Florida?

You have a chance to show objectivity here. You also have a chance to look like the most delusional romantic if you start talking about education and love of the university. Judging by your past on this board, I would be surprised if you managed a 3rd option that looked even worse.

The reality is not about getting to the league the fastest. The guys who are going are going to be one (or two) and doners wherever they go. The underlying reason they go to Kentucky in large part is because the players are drawn by the exposure they get to "the NBA insiders." They feel like they are part of the league already, like a minor league/farm system in baseball. just putting in their time to get through the one year basically already feeling like a pro. not because they want to represent Kentucky and certainly not because they want to learn from the best. They want to feel PART of something. The problem is that what they are wanting to be a part of has a higher probability in leading to behaviors that damage the institution and/or it's reputation. And quite frankly, I don't think that many of those players would even give a care about it if it happened. I also don't believe that many "kentucky basketball fans" would care much either since a good portion of their fan base has no ties to the actual institution. like say U. Miami or Southern Cal.

The whole Kentucky program is a show and sell and one that Caliperi has carefully cultivated. Did you see that NBA draft special where Cal was telling Davis and MKG where to sit so that he could be clearly in all camera shots?

Now, I'm not going to blindly accuse Caliperi of using "the friends of the program" to directly benefit the players while they are in school. However, I would be very interested to see the course work being pursued by many of these players. How many are actually taking college credit courses and not remedial courses with no attendance requirements. Does Cal sell this as an available angle to the "one and doners?"

as for their graduation rates, how many years has Cal been at Kentucky? 4th year now, maybe 5th? that means that he has only had one complete cycle of 4 year players come through. Check that number in another year or two when it slips down to the 30's.

If I had to guess a reason why most players pick Florida, I would say the opportunity to learn under Donovan. Of course all D-1 college basketball players are thinking/hoping/working towards becoming a professional basketball player. Typically, the institution (other than the facilities) and education are secondary if even a factor with many of these kids.

MY point has nothing to do with a romantic delusion in that regard. The point I was making is that when a player picks UF or any other college they are doing so on what they are being sold on. A recruit is being sold a coach, an institution and an opportunity.

Is Kentucky's approach topically any different? No. But what IS that coach offering, what IS the opportunity that is being sold? What IS the expectation going in?

Therein lies the difference. The question is how long before those expectations result in verifiable, punishable actions?

Is this response objective? delusional? or a predictable worse looking 3rd option?

[BEH]

Originally Posted by madgator

you do realize that the players that are going to your school really couldn't care less about your school.

it's just a matter of time before sanctions will be coming.

I had a conversation with a former Kentucky player in the NBA and I asked him point blank why he chose Kentucky over UF. "Because it's the fastest way to the league"

in his mind, he was already a pro who just had to bide his one season. don't think for a second that these kids aren't willing to take what they can, where they can, while they can.

I have little doubt that Cal will be out of your program within 5 years leaving the program in disgrace and in a state of disrepair.


There is nothing to be proud about in Kentucky basketball. You are basically the University of Miami of college basketball.

I talked to two UK players now in the NBA and ask them why they chose UK over UF. They told me it was acedemics.

I am incredibly proud of Kentucky basketball the last 4 years under Calipari. The record is fantastic and is one to envy.

Miami never had a good program or a good following. The same cannot be said about Kentucky madgator. Miami football had a good five year run. Kentucky basketball has had a good 100 year run. So there is no comparison.

[demosthenes]

Miami had more than a good five year run unless you're ignoring anything older than the past 12-14 years. But yes, Kentucky has a lot to sell.

Those players' statements on academics made me think of the old show "Kids say the darndest things."

[madgator]

Originally Posted by demosthenes

Miami had more than a good five year run unless you're ignoring anything older than the past 12-14 years. But yes, Kentucky has a lot to sell.

Those players' statements on academics made me think of the old show "Kids say the darndest things."

Kentucky's basketball tradition is a two fold advantage in the selling of the school.

1. be part of a historical program (to be part of something great)
2. that the support of the fan base will allow a lot of leeway to basketball players. (enablement)

[MJGator8104]

Originally Posted by BEH

I talked to two UK players now in the NBA and ask them why they chose UK over UF. They told me it was acedemics.

Good thing for you that UK is an AAU school and UF isn't...oh, wait...

[REM08]

Past UNC athletes chose UNC for academics as well. This fact negates academic statements made by both former gators and wildcats - and really by any athletes at any university. They play by different rules than regular students do. Either to a small degree or an astounding one.

[tommyuf21]

I've always wondered why academics mattered to anyone who has no intention of staying in school long enough to make a serious dent on the credits required for graduation.

Knight and Beal were exceptions because they attended college preparatory high schools and had earned college credits while in high school.

As for the vast majority, it makes no sense. What does a college major matter when you never get past basic general education classes that most freshman and sophomores take.