(Help)Cardio splits: HIIT vs "steady state"

[Dreamliner]

I have found a rather tidy correlation between circumference around belly button and the 'look' that I like. The look also corresponds fairly neatly with a bodyweight too. But then I've been at this for awhile.

IMO, more important than achieving a body composition goal is HOW YOU GOT THERE. Did you get there in a manner in which you will likely, easily sustain ?

Did you get there via prodigious amounts of exercise ? Why ?

Did you get there depriving yourself of the foods you truly enjoy ? What were you thinking ?

[Chirogator]

Another thing to consider to is that while the whole calories in vs calories out deal plays a huge role in losing the initial fat mass, it becomes much more of a game of hormones when you're trying to trim the last bit. When you're on a ketogenic diet (which if done properly should be a HIGH FAT diet, but that's another topic altogether), high intensity exercise is no longer your best friend because cortisol levels ramp up much quicker with this mixture versus on a more balanced (aka normal carb intake) diet with some HIIT. Cortisol is one of your biggest antagonists to leaning out. Same thing goes for steady state cardio at ~70% of max heart rate (ie. jogging) while on a keto diet. I would advocate a lot (aim for about 2 miles 5 days/week) of fasted low level cardio (walking) in the morning while on a ketogenic diet and cutting out jogging/running/ and any glycolytically demanding exercise (HIIT or circuit training or crossfit or anything like that). Up your calories a bit (1700-1800 would probably be more appropriate), do some heavy lifting 2-3 days per week and do lots of fasted walking every morning. Combine that with a lot of sleep (at least 8 hours/night if possible) and you'll mitigate the cortisol effect of a keto diet and you should see some excellent results off of that. Also an occasional refeed with a lot of carbohydrates (upwards of 800g of carbs once every other week or so) will help mitigate muscle loss and could even put you into an anabolic mode for a little bit which will help retain muscle and keep you from wasting away into nothing. Seems a little counterintuitive but I've seen it work for many of my clients and patients and I'd bet it'd work well for you too. Google "cyclical ketogenic diet" for ideas about the refeed.

[oI2ange]

I've been doing more HIIT lately than steady state. Interestingly enough, I think that my runs are a bit faster when doing HIIT. I know that HIIT should = steady pace for the most part (since I'm the increase in speed from HIIT will be equalized by my slower pace = average of just steady state pace)...but I think the HIIT changes my mentality a bit. It gives me something to work towards when I'm doing my interchanging times.

So far, results have been good...will continue to update.

[Dreamliner]

I can see where that would be the case. The newbie running doesn't have to try to run faster in order to gradually run faster. He/she will stand to benefit from mere repetition.

On the other hand, the more experienced runner, like yourself, may have to jog the mind, so to speak. It's probably akin to teaching football players to just fire off the ball faster.

[Dreamliner]

How good is HITT for fat loss, really ? Apparently, not so hot:

http://anthonycolpo.com/?p=4075

[ATL_Gator]

Interesting.

Though, long. I don't have time to read through all of it right now.

Did notice a couple of things in even the quick scanning.
The chick in the first picture.
"High Level Athlete" mentioned a couple of times
Fitness Goons selling an angle with a bit of science
The need to go back to the first picture after seeing the last picture. I get that he is talking about the dude's thighs, but that is NOT what is circled!

Anyway. Working for high level athletes and being applicable to me are two entirely different things. Mostly because I am not a high level athlete, or so I am told. Took a while to come to grips with that one. Once accepted that, and you read Anthony's first couple of paragraphs where he is reciting the benefits seen from HIIT and how it may not apply.

Also, how easily we fall into some traps. I swear, all it takes is an idea and the smallest bit of data that SEEMS like there is some sort of scientific study behind it and BAM, people will flock to it. Seriously seems like you don't even have to show the actual data behind the claims... just state that "scientific studies have shown... " while showing a graph of something that proves your point and BAM... good enough.

/sigh. Work time. (desk job, not workout).

[StrangeGator]

To me, it's not HIIT vs. steady state, but what you do in your HIIT workout. If you mix it up, HIIT is an excellent part of an overall fitness program. I do six to eight different exercises in a Tabata circuit, most of it stuff I never do in a lifting or steady state cardio workout. I don't know what it does for my as far as body composition, but it definitely helps with my cardiovascular capacity.

[LeafUF]

As stated in the article most of the studies do not control for diet. So they are essentially studying the effects of HIIT on its own. I think we all know that on its own any exercise regimen is not great for fat loss. The article at one point also states that 60 minutes a week is not enough exercise for fat loss, which is true only if you are not reducing calories.

When it comes to which cardio is better, it really does come down to the individual as in the end HIIT is not going to be as superior as previously though compared to LISS. Fighters and sprinters and pretty much any athlete that is performing intervals in their sport would want to increase their VO2 max and train with HIIT. Just an average Joe gym goer who wants to lose some weight shouldnt care about that.

Me personally, if I do intense cardio my appetite becomes out of control hence negating any positive body composition benefits from doing the activity. So if I do cardio I just walk for 20-30 minutes.

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by StrangeGator

To me, it's not HIIT vs. steady state, but what you do in your HIIT workout. If you mix it up, HIIT is an excellent part of an overall fitness program. I do six to eight different exercises in a Tabata circuit, most of it stuff I never do in a lifting or steady state cardio workout. I don't know what it does for my as far as body composition, but it definitely helps with my cardiovascular capacity.

Sport-specific conditioning is a legitimate concern. As regards martial arts, it is my general impression that it inclines more towards HIIT these days. And I can understand why. Of possible interest: there is an emerging albeit modest backlash, in MMA circles, against copious HIIT. This school of thought urges the inclusion of more aerobic training and its proponents remind us that boxers have long performed 'roadwork' and still do.

If I were to guess, establishing a nice aerobic base and HIIT employed sparingly would be the ticket.

[Dreamliner]

What I hope we will not miss in all of this: there is no such thing as an exercise modality that turns your body into a 'fat burning furnace', which is the claim commonly made for HIIT.

[slmdLS1]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

What I hope we will not miss in all of this: there is no such thing as an exercise modality that turns your body into a 'fat burning furnace', which is the claim commonly made for HIIT.

see, thats what i was thinking...although not some huge disparity. good to know its not something i have to change.

[StrangeGator]

Originally Posted by Dreamliner

Sport-specific conditioning is a legitimate concern. As regards martial arts, it is my general impression that it inclines more towards HIIT these days. And I can understand why. Of possible interest: there is an emerging albeit modest backlash, in MMA circles, against copious HIIT. This school of thought urges the inclusion of more aerobic training and its proponents remind us that boxers have long performed 'roadwork' and still do.

If I were to guess, establishing a nice aerobic base and HIIT employed sparingly would be the ticket.

Makes sense for MMA since they have to be conditioned to get through a full round. Aikido is different in that the most we have to go through is 20 to 30 seconds, and that's against multiple attackers. What's most typical in class is taking on an attacker four times in quick succession, then taking your turn as the attacker and getting thrown and getting back up four times.

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by StrangeGator

Makes sense for MMA since they have to be conditioned to get through a full round. Aikido is different in that the most we have to go through is 20 to 30 seconds, and that's against multiple attackers. What's most typical in class is taking on an attacker four times in quick succession, then taking your turn as the attacker and getting thrown and getting back up four times.

The backlash that I speak of (granted, it's modest) was born of the realization that intense cardio of a sort which mimicked the demands of a match (3-5 segments of furious activity punctuated by brief rests) saw practitioners still getting gassed.

THEN, they began to look back to the way boxers always jogged and still do.

[StrangeGator]

Then my question is how do you prepare for a sport where you elevate your HR to the 175+ range without elevating your heart that high in a workout? You can't maintain that kind of exertion through a typical steady state workout.

I dropped my HIIT for several weeks, partly based on your comments. It was quite a while before I noticed any drop off, but I did get more gassed in my advanced class and during seminars. I picked it back up about three weeks ago, and by last week, even my dojo mates noticed how much better I've been doing. The more intense the class, the better I do relative to everyone else. It's great when everyone else is getting gassed and I'm getting my second wind.

[Dreamliner]

Originally Posted by StrangeGator

Then my question is how do you prepare for a sport where you elevate your HR to the 175+ range without elevating your heart that high in a workout? You can't maintain that kind of exertion through a typical steady state workout.

I dropped my HIIT for several weeks, partly based on your comments. It was quite a while before I noticed any drop off, but I did get more gassed in my advanced class and during seminars. I picked it back up about three weeks ago, and by last week, even my dojo mates noticed how much better I've been doing. The more intense the class, the better I do relative to everyone else. It's great when everyone else is getting gassed and I'm getting my second wind.

Oh, I hope I didn't come close to recommending that you drop HIIT altogether for MMA. Yes, you see boxers doing roadwork. But they also jump rope and do burpees.

I'm just reacting to the current trend wherein that's all fighters ever do. I'm advocating for a more balanced approach. In fact, I posted a thread awhile back on the limitations of HIIT. I don't think you need to do much of it to maintain your anaerobic fitness levels.