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Old 11-05-2009, 08:14 PM   #81
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Now, I'd go see that ... if only for research purposes.
Yea, I'm down (for research purposes only, of course). I'll buy the popcorn.
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Old 11-05-2009, 08:19 PM   #82
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If she's in hell, then there's no hope for us all since her accomplishments at actually living out the Bible's creed far exceed the combined total of basically everyone posting on this board.
I would be willing to bet Mother Teresa is no better at living it out than the Pharisees and Scribes were, and Jesus said that our righteousness has to even exceed that of them. And you are correct, there is no hope that we may gain any sort of merit with God based on our works. Not even for Mother Teresa. Christ is the ONLY true hope.
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Old 11-05-2009, 08:42 PM   #83
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I would be willing to bet Mother Teresa is no better at living it out than the Pharisees and Scribes were, and Jesus said that our righteousness has to even exceed that of them. And you are correct, there is no hope that we may gain any sort of merit with God based on our works. Not even for Mother Teresa. Christ is the ONLY true hope.
I think you've missed the point of my post--and comparing Mother Theresa to the Pharisees or Scribes is an incredibly poor analogy that suggests you aren't familiar with Mother Theresa or the Pharisees/Scribes--or both. Jesus lambasted the Pharisees and Scribes for loudly proclaiming their "righteousness" and doing it in a self-righteous and self-serving manner. "Look at me!! I am so good!!" That type thing. Mother Theresa spent several decades serving the poor in India before her story became known worldwide. Would seem to me to be far better at "living it out" than the hypocrites Jesus was calling out in his sermons.
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Old 11-05-2009, 09:24 PM   #84
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I think you've missed the point of my post--and comparing Mother Theresa to the Pharisees or Scribes is an incredibly poor analogy that suggests you aren't familiar with Mother Theresa or the Pharisees/Scribes--or both. Jesus lambasted the Pharisees and Scribes for loudly proclaiming their "righteousness" and doing it in a self-righteous and self-serving manner. "Look at me!! I am so good!!" That type thing. Mother Theresa spent several decades serving the poor in India before her story became known worldwide. Would seem to me to be far better at "living it out" than the hypocrites Jesus was calling out in his sermons.
I don't think that you understood my point. Maybe these questions will help you understand the point that I was trying to make:

If Mother Teresa is good enough to get to heaven on the basis of her works, then what is wrong with speaking the truth about it? Would Mother Teresa be condemned for telling the truth if she were to come out and claim that? Or is it something that is only OK for other people to point out if it is true? Or in other words why is bragging and gloating in one's own self-righteousness such a wrong thing to do?
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Old 11-05-2009, 09:54 PM   #85
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TRUMPETS AND STREET CORNERS

Matthew 6:1-5

1 "Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.

2 "So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honored by men Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.

3 "But when you give to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,

4 so that your giving will be in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you."

5 "When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
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Old 11-05-2009, 10:43 PM   #86
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TRUMPETS AND STREET CORNERS

Matthew 6:1-5

1 "Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.

2 "So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honored by men Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.

3 "But when you give to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,

4 so that your giving will be in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you."

5 "When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
Good. So what makes these people hypocrites in this passage?
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Old 11-06-2009, 03:44 AM   #87
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Good. So what makes these people hypocrites in this passage?
The fact that they "sounded trumpets" before they did any act of spiritual piety? I mean, unless there's some other interpretation I'm missing, I always figured Jesus was talking about self-serving hypocrites who loudly proclaimed their own self-righteousness, when the reality is that they were serving only their image of themselves.

Again, Mother Theresa served the poor for decades before anyone even knew her name. Seems the exact opposite of the example Jesus was pointing to in his sermons about the Pharisees.

As for the rest, I suspect it would involve differences between our two religions that would change neither's opinion and distract from the main topic at hand. And I suspect that you knew that since I identified myself as a Catholic earlier in the thread. Regardless of what you may feel about the Catholic Church and its theology, Mother Theresa exemplifies exactly the message that Christ sent us in Scripture: selfless service to others. I would feel the same way about her were she Catholic or Protestant--it really makes no difference to me. The life she lived and the example she gave is inspirational to people of all faiths--even if you disagree on some of her beliefs.
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Old 11-06-2009, 10:03 AM   #88
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The fact that they "sounded trumpets" before they did any act of spiritual piety? I mean, unless there's some other interpretation I'm missing, I always figured Jesus was talking about self-serving hypocrites who loudly proclaimed their own self-righteousness, when the reality is that they were serving only their image of themselves.

Again, Mother Theresa served the poor for decades before anyone even knew her name. Seems the exact opposite of the example Jesus was pointing to in his sermons about the Pharisees.

As for the rest, I suspect it would involve differences between our two religions that would change neither's opinion and distract from the main topic at hand. And I suspect that you knew that since I identified myself as a Catholic earlier in the thread. Regardless of what you may feel about the Catholic Church and its theology, Mother Theresa exemplifies exactly the message that Christ sent us in Scripture: selfless service to others. I would feel the same way about her were she Catholic or Protestant--it really makes no difference to me. The life she lived and the example she gave is inspirational to people of all faiths--even if you disagree on some of her beliefs.
I actually missed that part where you stated that you are a Catholic. That should help me know where you are coming from.

Now let me be very clear. I am not criticizing Mother Teresa in any way. I was just trying to make a theological point. My question is does Mother Teresa's charity show that she is righteous? And if she is shown to be righteous by her charity to the poor, then what would be so hypocritical about claiming her own righteousness when she has demonstrated that she is? What is so wrong with saying that if it is true?

I think Paul explains why it is hypocritical:

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Originally Posted by Romans 3:10-12, 19, 20
There is none righteous, no, not one:

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one...

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Ultimately, the problem is that no one is righteous. That is why the Pharisees were hypocrites. If anybody thinks that they or someone other than Christ is righteous, then that person is mistaken. Only Christ is righteous. That is why I believe Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites. If you proclaim the righteousness of your own works, it is ultimately hypocritical because we are not righteous, as Paul clearly indicates. All of the world is guilty before God, so we have no place to think that we are righteous because we are not. In a civil sense the Pharisees and Scribes were probably better than everybody else. Mother Teresa probably also is the best example of charity that we have in society. It does not mean that she is righteous, though, due to the fact that "the plowing of the wicked, is sin" (Proverbs 21:4). Since we are all wicked apart from Christ as Paul was able to demonstrate, there is nothing that we are capable of doing apart from Christ that ultimately would be considered righteous. And that even includes charitable giving. Is that good in a civil sense? Sure. But from a spiritual standpoint it is wicked unless it is done in Christ, and this is why even Mother Teresa is not good enough to get to heaven on works. Even Mother Teresa is in need of a savior because of her inherent wickedness.
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Old 11-06-2009, 11:30 AM   #89
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I assume charity doesn't fit in your Randian little world?
That would certainly appear to be the case.

I think that most of us would agree that ministering to the teeming number of sick and dying, many of whom had no one else to care for them, is charity of a most unusual kind. She "produced" comfort and caring for the poorest of the poor.

I wish that I could "produce" such things instead of simply giving contributions to those who actually choose to live in squalor in the worst of slums in order to feed, comfort and minister to the least of the least.

What you do for the least of your brothers and sisters you do for Me.
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Old 11-06-2009, 11:38 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by lacuna View Post
TRUMPETS AND STREET CORNERS

Matthew 6:1-5

1 "Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.

2 "So when you give to the poor, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be honored by men Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.

3 "But when you give to the poor, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,

4 so that your giving will be in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you."

5 "When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
I remember reading some very similar things in the Diamond Sutra.
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Old 11-06-2009, 12:09 PM   #91
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I remember reading some very similar things in the Diamond Sutra.
Truth can be spoken in many languages.
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