Why are some "sins" overlooked vs. others?

[GatorFanCF]

We all have read about various churches and their protestation about various ills - many of which I agree with them. FYI: I am a member of a church and believe the good book. Why is it then, that we rarely hear about:
* Sloth?
* Gluttony?
* Gossip?
* Coveting? (SP?)

I think it's because these type of "internal" sins are not readily seen by the public. If you smoke and are a drunk you probably smell bad and embarrass yourself and those around you (plus worse); but, if you overeat and are consumed with food (pun intended) you're okay - maybe inconvenient when we're sharing a booth, but okay. Both people have issues - they are just expressed differently. For instance, I believe homosexuality is a sin. And, I've committed many, many sins - just different ones. As far as I'm concerned that makes me equivalent as we've both fallen short. It's sad; because living in liberty involves truth and transparency and the Western church seems to stifle those two.

[QGator2414]

I think that your observation is definitely part of it.

I would add that IMO many (including myself at times) struggle with the Spremacy of God vs the supremacy of man...

But you are spot on that sin is sin and that is the reason we need to discuss sin and hold each other accountable with the utmost humility. As we all are born depraved and do not deserve eternal salvation.

[kygator]

If Christian preachers focused any attention on gluttony they would drive away half of their congregation. Many conservative Christians don't believe the government should recognize gay marriage because the Bible says it is a sin. They also don't believe the government should tell us what we can eat or drink because it is none of their business. The sinning aspect of gluttony doesn't seem to be important.

[LittleBlueLW]

I can hardly wait to hear the sermon. I dont know what would be funnier, the southern baptist version or the AME.

[QGator2414]

I can hardly wait to hear the sermon. I dont know what would be funnier, the southern baptist version or the AME.

The John Piper 7 minute version...

http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/ask-pastor-john/how-can-i-conquer-gluttony

[gymgator]

Great questions...Banks can steal billions from us, borrow trillions, spy on us, oil can spill billions, factories can poison our water and soil and there is no outrage from the people...but fool around with an intern and all of a sudden we have to take action.

No, it's not okay to cheat on your wife, but damn if we aren't just a bunch of simpletons.

[Spurffelbow833]

Great questions...Banks can steal billions from us, borrow trillions, spy on us, oil can spill billions, factories can poison our water and soil and there is no outrage from the people...but fool around with an intern and all of a sudden we have to take action.

No, it's not okay to cheat on your wife, but damn if we aren't just a bunch of simpletons.

The sins that get the most attention from the churches are the ones that aren't going to bring the government down on them. We all know good and damn well who's really calling the shots. Hint: it's the gang demanding three to five times as much of your money as the church expects.

[Dreamliner]

And for the people who like to keep track of sins, they overlook one as grievous as any:

"Thou shalt not kill.'

It is a cruel irony that some of the otherwise kindest and caring people in America enthusiastically countenance Caesar's wars. Amazingly, conservative Christians are typically the demographic most enthusiastic about American wars.

In light of this, I'd prefer to see the church take concerns for sin off the table altogether.

[GatorFanCF]

Dream: is the scripture "Thou shalt not kill?" or is it "Thou shalt not murder?"

[Dreamliner]

Dream: is the scripture "Thou shalt not kill?" or is it "Thou shalt not murder?"

Christians argue back and forth about how to construe 'kill', but it is difficult, I should think, to reconcile love for Jesus with love for wars. And American conservative Christians do love their wars.

And perhaps love for Caesar is a larger issue ...

[OaktownGator]

Christians argue back and forth about how to construe 'kill', but it is difficult, I should think, to reconcile love for Jesus with love for wars. And American conservative Christians do love their wars.

And perhaps love for Caesar is a larger issue ...
All too true.

[QGator2414]

Christians argue back and forth about how to construe 'kill', but it is difficult, I should think, to reconcile love for Jesus with love for wars. And American conservative Christians do love their wars.

And perhaps love for Caesar is a larger issue ...

I don't think you will find that many people Christian or otherwise that love war...

[Dreamliner]

I don't think you will find that many people Christian or otherwise that love war...

I don't think you'll find many Christians who actually love Jesus, based on the way they campaign for Caesar and clamor for war.

[OaktownGator]

I don't think you will find that many people Christian or otherwise that love war...

One would hope that to be the case, but our country's repeated enthusiastic calls for war indicate otherwise.

[Spurffelbow833]

And for the people who like to keep track of sins, they overlook one as grievous as any:

"Thou shalt not kill.'

It is a cruel irony that some of the otherwise kindest and caring people in America enthusiastically countenance Caesar's wars. Amazingly, conservative Christians are typically the demographic most enthusiastic about American wars.

More sadly still, good luck finding a demographic that is truly opposed to them.

[lacuna]

John Hagee and George Morrison, pastor of Faith Baptist Chapel in Arvada, Colorado have called for or support war.

At the 1:25 mark Hagee is heard to pray:

"Father, in the name of the Lord Jesus I pray for our president tonight. I pray that you would give him the wisdom of Solomon to lead this nation into war against the enemies of righteousness. I pray for the good men and women in Washington, D.C. that they would stand in righteous boldness for this righteous cause..."

Gary Bauer is on the board of directors of Hagee's Christian Zionist lobby, CUFI, Christians United for Israel. Until his death in 2007 Jerry Falwell was also connected with CUFI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udBM22ZhxBI


And lest we forget - Pat Robertson called for the assassination of Hugo Chavez in 2005.

[QGator2414]

One would hope that to be the case, but our country's repeated enthusiastic calls for war indicate otherwise.

You make it seem as though our leaders enthusiastically want intelligence to show our country is in danger. I don't think that is the case...

[QGator2414]

I don't think you'll find many Christians who actually love Jesus, based on the way they campaign for Caesar and clamor for war.

Okay...

[Lawdog88]

John Hagee and George Morrison, pastor of Faith Baptist Chapel in Arvada, Colorado have called for or support war.

At the 1:25 mark Hagee is heard to pray:

"Father, in the name of the Lord Jesus I pray for our president tonight. I pray that you would give him the wisdom of Solomon to lead this nation into war against the enemies of righteousness. I pray for the good men and women in Washington, D.C. that they would stand in righteous boldness for this righteous cause..."

Gary Bauer is on the board of directors of Hagee's Christian Zionist lobby, CUFI, Christians United for Israel. Until his death in 2007 Jerry Falwell was also connected with CUFI

And lest we forget - Pat Robertson called for the assassination of Hugo Chavez in 2005.


So wait . . . is support for Israel (the enemies of Israel included, of course) a good thing . . . or a bad thing ?

I get mixed up on that issue, depending on the speaker.

[OaktownGator]

You make it seem as though our leaders enthusiastically want intelligence to show our country is in danger. I don't think that is the case...
Really?

Since WWII, we've been engaged in wars and other covert military actions almost non-stop... which of those were we legitimately in danger from the "enemy"?

I'll buy AQ. But of course we effectively created them with our prior meddling in Afghanistan and throughout the Mideast.

USSR, if we had ever gone to war, was certainly a credible threat. Explains why we didn't go to war with them (or them with us). And why we'll never go to war with China... at least not in the foreseeable future.

Next to that, Korea's first round of Hyundai vehicles was probably the greatest threat. :joecool:

Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country. - Hermann Goering.
The man was clearly correct from the govt's POV.

Although I believe he underestimated the blood lust among many in our population... and others.

People around this very forum talk about "turning the desert to glass" like they're rooting for the Gators kick butt on the Dawgs.

Too many people are too cavalier about the idea of raining down death and dismemberment on peoples we don't know, who've done nothing to us, and pose no credible threat to us.

[Dreamliner]

Really?

Since WWII, we've been engaged in wars and other covert military actions almost non-stop... which of those were we legitimately in danger from the "enemy"?

I'll buy AQ. But of course we effectively created them with our prior meddling in Afghanistan and throughout the Mideast.

USSR, if we had ever gone to war, was certainly a credible threat. Explains why we didn't go to war with them (or them with us). And why we'll never go to war with China... at least not in the foreseeable future.

Next to that, Korea's first round of Hyundai vehicles was probably the greatest threat. :joecool:


The man was clearly correct from the govt's POV.

Although I believe he underestimated the blood lust among many in our population... and others.

People around this very forum talk about "turning the desert to glass" like they're rooting for the Gators kick butt on the Dawgs.

Too many people are too cavalier about the idea of raining down death and dismemberment on peoples we don't know, who've done nothing to us, and pose no credible threat to us.

Believe it or not, the first time I ever heard the saying "turn to glass" ... was in a Bible study. It was uttered by a nice, middle-aged lady in the aftermath of 9/11. She wanted the government to turn Afghanistan into glass.

[QGator2414]

Really?

Since WWII, we've been engaged in wars and other covert military actions almost non-stop... which of those were we legitimately in danger from the "enemy"?

I'll buy AQ. But of course we effectively created them with our prior meddling in Afghanistan and throughout the Mideast.

USSR, if we had ever gone to war, was certainly a credible threat. Explains why we didn't go to war with them (or them with us). And why we'll never go to war with China... at least not in the foreseeable future.

Next to that, Korea's first round of Hyundai vehicles was probably the greatest threat. :joecool:


The man was clearly correct from the govt's POV.

Although I believe he underestimated the blood lust among many in our population... and others.

People around this very forum talk about "turning the desert to glass" like they're rooting for the Gators kick butt on the Dawgs.

Too many people are too cavalier about the idea of raining down death and dismemberment on peoples we don't know, who've done nothing to us, and pose no credible threat to us.

Has there been bad intelligence and bad decisions made based on both good and bad intelligence through the years? Absolutely.

That does not mean our leaders are looking for excuses to go to war and put our service men and women in harms way...

[OaktownGator]

Has there been bad intelligence and bad decisions made based on both good and bad intelligence through the years? Absolutely.

That does not mean our leaders are looking for excuses to go to war and put our service men and women in harms way...

It is not that they want to put service men and women in harm's way... just that their lives and the lives of people in other countries are secondary to MIC and other large stakeholder priorities.

It's very much like a manufacturing corporation that poisons the local environment. They are not doing it specifically to put residents in harms way... they just have other priorities that make the lives of local residents secondary.

Of course, I would also point to our track record as very clear evidence that this is the case.

[OaktownGator]

Believe it or not, the first time I ever heard the saying "turn to glass" ... was in a Bible study. It was uttered by a nice, middle-aged lady in the aftermath of 9/11. She wanted the government to turn Afghanistan into glass.

Wow... that was an opportunity for contemplation. Crises often get the best of good people.

[QGator2414]

It is not that they want to put service men and women in harm's way... just that their lives and the lives of people in other countries are secondary to MIC and other large stakeholder priorities.

It's very much like a manufacturing corporation that poisons the local environment. They are not doing it specifically to put residents in harms way... they just have other priorities that make the lives of local residents secondary.

Of course, I would also point to our track record as very clear evidence that this is the case.

So they don't want to put our service men and women in harms way but do.

Okay...

[OaktownGator]

So they don't want to put our service men and women in harms way but do.

Okay...
Again, their lives are secondary to other priorities. You can consider that intentional, but I'd be willing to bet the people making the decisions rationalize the justness of their decisions based on their perverted priorities.

The idea that we have to make wars and overturn governments in the mideast in an effort to protect access to mideast oil is an easy example. There are people who think that is perfectly rational and just.... and to the OP, don't spend much time contemplating sins... "You shall not murder" apparently doesn't cross their mind.

Of course, you never answered my question... tell me which military actions since WWII (we haven't actually declared war since then) have involved a legitimate threat to the American people?

The answer to that question tells you whether we inappropriately put our service men and women in harm's way... on a regular basis.

[Dreamliner]

I think it's also fair to point out that American conservative Christians, perhaps more than any other demographic, actually venerate the military. It is quite common to hear prayers offered up, from pulpits on Sundays, for soldiers overseas killing people who pose no threat to Americans.

[QGator2414]

Again, their lives are secondary to other priorities. You can consider that intentional, but I'd be willing to bet the people making the decisions rationalize the justness of their decisions based on their perverted priorities.

The idea that we have to make wars and overturn governments in the mideast in an effort to protect access to mideast oil is an easy example. There are people who think that is perfectly rational and just.... and to the OP, don't spend much time contemplating sins... "You shall not murder" apparently doesn't cross their mind.

Of course, you never answered my question... tell me which military actions since WWII (we haven't actually declared war since then) have involved a legitimate threat to the American people?

The answer to that question tells you whether we inappropriately put our service men and women in harm's way... on a regular basis.


Wish I could do that. Why don't you tell me which military threats have not involved a legitimate threat to the American people? Your confidence makes it appear you have seen intelligence most are not privileged to see.

As I said before. I have no doubt bad decisions were made. But I just don't think they were made lightly...

[Dreamliner]

For followers of Christ, why should American lives be more sacred than other lives ?

[QGator2414]

For followers of Christ, why should American lives be more sacred than other lives ?

They shouldn't!

[Dreamliner]

They shouldn't!

But isn't that the clear implication of American Christians' endorsement of American wars ? They'd be outraged if the government killed American kids.

[QGator2414]

But isn't that the clear implication of American Christians' endorsement of American wars ? They'd be outraged if the government killed American kids.

I have never seen Christians endorse/want to go to war...

I have seen them support those who are willing to protect us from evil...

I would agree there is evil in our government but I do not believe it has been a driver for war. At least for most of the elected leaders with access to intel we do not have. I could be wrong.

[Dreamliner]

I have never seen Christians endorse/want to go to war...

I have seen them support those who are willing to protect us from evil...

I would agree there is evil in our government but I do not believe it has been a driver for war. At least for most of the elected leaders with access to intel we do not have. I could be wrong.

What about the evil of American wars ?

[Gatormb]

Not sure five terrorist attacks a day (over 20,000 since 9/11 where over 3,000 died) represent no threat to "The Great Satan".

9/11 was not an isolated incident and only the Gov't knows how many other acres have been thwarted.

'Turn the other cheek"?

[QGator2414]

What about the evil of American wars ?

What were the intentions and cause for them?

Again I do not doubt we were involved in some bipartisan conflicts we should not have been a part of. But did the intel (good or bad) support those decisions? I don't know.

[Dreamliner]

What were the intentions and cause for them?

Again I do not doubt we were involved in some bipartisan conflicts we should not have been a part of. But did the intel (good or bad) support those decisions? I don't know.

I'm saying that our going to war is the greater evil. And historically, American conservatives get behind them.

[QGator2414]

I'm saying that our going to war is the greater evil. And historically, American conservatives get behind them.

And I say it is not evil to protect yourself from evil.

[Dreamliner]

And I say it is not evil to protect yourself from evil.

Then aside from the question as to why Christians don't defend themselves against their own government, what did Jesus say to do to evil people ?

I just don't see where American Christians are big on Jesus. Now, they are big on AMERICA. They are idolaters.

[Tim85]

Then aside from the question as to why Christians don't defend themselves against their own government, what did Jesus say to do to evil people ?

I just don't see where American Christians are big on Jesus. Now, they are big on AMERICA. They are idolaters.

Dream, Jesus didn't teach how to run a government, he taught how to live our personal lives 'as we go.' Trying to use the direct quotes of Jesus to justify or not justify how a government should act in a certain situation seems to just be taking it way out of context to me.

[Dreamliner]

Dream, Jesus didn't teach how to run a government, he taught how to live our personal lives 'as we go.' Trying to use the direct quotes of Jesus to justify or not justify how a government should act in a certain situation seems to just be taking it way out of context to me.

Seems like the show is on the other foot. As far as I'm concerned, it is for Americanists who call themselves worshippers of Christ, to explain the basis for their trust in Caesar.

[MichiGator2002]

Total passivity is not a mandate of Christian faith.

[Dreamliner]

Neither is total devotion to Caesar.

[MichiGator2002]

Total devotion to Christ is a mandate of Christian faith.

Then there is a nice synergy there, since Christ did not teach total, all contexts passivity.

[Dreamliner]

Then there is a nice synergy there, since Christ did not teach total, all contexts passivity.

Neither did he teach whom we should bomb.

[MichiGator2002]

Neither did he teach whom we should bomb.

No, I don't suppose He did, but then, He also didn't definitively rule out the notion that it might be a necessary thing to bomb someone at some point, so target selection is something left to human faculty and moral contemplation.

[QGator2414]

Here is a good 5 minute discussion among Christians from Larry King on this subject.

I suppose we can put our trust in the united nations... ;)

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FLKya5kz5Uw

[QGator2414]

Neither is total devotion to Caesar.

I did not realize supporting protection is total devotion to Caesar...

[Dreamliner]

No, I don't suppose He did, but then, He also didn't definitively rule out the notion that it might be a necessary thing to bomb someone at some point, so target selection is something left to human faculty and moral contemplation.

... and Caesar ?

[Tim85]

... and Caesar ?

I don't really see how being supportive of troops and trying to be proactive about protecting our country is seen as devotion to Caesar. After all, our current Caesar I would bet is currently very disliked amongst most if the American Christians were talking about.

[Dreamliner]

I don't really see how being supportive of troops and trying to be proactive about protecting our country is seen as devotion to Caesar. After all, our current Caesar I would bet is currently very disliked amongst most if the American Christians were talking about.

Why are followers of Christ wringing their hands about their country ? Shouldn't they be minding the church ? Instead of disliking the current Caesar (the Caesar they didn't vote for), shouldn't they be disliking their double-mindedness ?

[Tim85]

Why are followers of Christ wringing their hands about their country ? Shouldn't they be minding the church ? Instead of disliking the current Caesar (the Caesar they didn't vote for), shouldn't they be disliking their double-mindedness ?

Why are the followers of Christ also thieves, murderers, adulterers, selfish, greedy? Also, how much time have you spent in different churches across America to know that American Christians are collectively and generally double minded when it comes to this?

[Dreamliner]

Why are the followers of Christ also thieves, murderers, adulterers, selfish, greedy? Also, how much time have you spent in different churches across America to know that American Christians are collectively and generally double minded when it comes to this?

Because I've talked with so many Christians like yourself, Christians whose thoughts so quickly run to defending America, serving America, and otherwise apologizing for her sins.

Isn't our citizenship in heaven ?

[MichiGator2002]

... and Caesar ?

... and Wayne Newton?

[Dreamliner]

... and Wayne Newton?

Why not ? I mean, it's not like Christians are interested in worshipping Christ.

[MichiGator2002]

Because I've talked with so many Christians like yourself, Christians whose thoughts so quickly run to defending America, serving America, and otherwise apologizing for her sins.

Isn't our citizenship in heaven ?

We should consult the volumes and volumes of helpful teaching and wisdom Jesus gave us when he returned to reign and be our God back in the late first century. I mean, it isn't like He would come back and then just not offer so much as one quotable insight to guide humanity toward His will for the next couple of millennia... er... hmm.

The moral right of self-defense, or the moral obligation to defend the weak and the innocent, don't require or assume that you, the agent, are morally flawless. You are not worshipping yourself when you exercise them.

So it follows that when these rights and obligations are aggregated by a nation, it isn't an implied assertion that there is a divine charter for that nation. Now, I will concede that sometimes people spiritualize the United States beyond what is appropriate, but the are independent phenomena. Your view, Dream, would seem to set a standard by which the only way to disprove state "idolatry" would be to always stand idly by, to never intercede on your own behalf or on behalf of one whom you could protect from injustice.

[MichiGator2002]

Why not ? I mean, it's not like Christians are interested in worshipping Christ.

It was a comment on the abject non sequitur that was chirping "... and Caesar" at me.

[Dreamliner]

We should consult the volumes and volumes of helpful teaching and wisdom Jesus gave us when he returned to reign and be our God back in the late first century. I mean, it isn't like He would come back and then just not offer so much as one quotable insight to guide humanity toward His will for the next couple of millennia... er... hmm.

The moral right of self-defense, or the moral obligation to defend the weak and the innocent, don't require or assume that you, the agent, are morally flawless. You are not worshipping yourself when you exercise them.

So it follows that when these rights and obligations are aggregated by a nation, it isn't an implied assertion that there is a divine charter for that nation. Now, I will concede that sometimes people spiritualize the United States beyond what is appropriate, but the are independent phenomena. Your view, Dream, would seem to set a standard by which the only way to disprove state "idolatry" would be to always stand idly by, to never intercede on your own behalf or on behalf of one whom you could protect from injustice.

Dear Jesus -

We DEMAND the 'moral right to defend' ourselves!

Signed,
The Wayne Newtonians

[MichiGator2002]

Don't need to ask it, we already have it. It is implicit in the dignity of human life. You pretty much just outed yourself as believing self-defense is in and of itself un-Christian, though, which brings us back to you inventing a false theology of total passivity.

[Dreamliner]

Don't need to ask it, we already have it. It is implicit in the dignity of human life. You pretty much just outed yourself as believing self-defense is in and of itself un-Christian, though, which brings us back to you inventing a false theology of total passivity.

Yes, but it's also good to have Jesus on reserve, just in case you need to drag him in.

[Tim85]

Why not ? I mean, it's not like Christians are interested in worshipping Christ.

Would a christian be anyone claiming to follow Christ, or those actually following Christ?

[OaktownGator]

Wish I could do that. Why don't you tell me which military threats have not involved a legitimate threat to the American people? Your confidence makes it appear you have seen intelligence most are not privileged to see.

As I said before. I have no doubt bad decisions were made. But I just don't think they were made lightly...
Below is a list of military actions where there was little to no legitimate threat to Americans and no attack against America.

It also does not reflect the fact that we have our bases and troops in other people's backyards all over the globe, which itself increase hatred of our country and puts those servicemen and women at greater risk than they would be at home, or deployed at sea in international waters.

Also very interesting that from a country borne of revolt, most of the actions listed below not labelled as a "war", involved us helping their govts put down a revolt... would be the same as if the French had come over here and helped the Brits kick our azz.

With a notable exception being Iran, where we helped over throw a democratically elected govt... because they were going to nationalize their oil.

I agree the decisions were not made lightly... they were made with a perverted sense of priorities, and a decrepit moral foundation.

For instance, not agreeing with people in foreign lands is no justification for killing them. Their oil policies and system of govt is none of our business. And when people revolt against their govt (real grass roots revolt and not a military coup), they have damned good reasons to do so, and we should be the last country to stand in their way.

Below I don't list things like the Cuban missile crisis which I take as legitimate defense of our country against a very real threat. And I mention actions against terrorists as legit, but something we almost certainly brought on ourselves with our constant military meddling in other people's business.

Late 40s to 50s.
Korean War.
Greece.
Iran.

60s to 70s.
Vietnam war. Related actions in Laos and Cambodia.
Dominican Republic.
Iran - blowback from installing the shah.

80s
El Salvador.
Grenada.
Nicaragua.
Panama.
Columbia.
Phillipines.

90s
Iraq and Kuwait - Desert Storm, then ongoing actions. Saddam was our ally through his most deplorable actions against his own people and Iran thru the 80s... then he made the mistake of screwing with oil.
Serbia, Bosnia and Herzogovinia... this series of actions got justified for humanitarian reasons to stop massive casualties, and I support public debate on that type of action, but we certainly were in no danger. And we certainly are not consistent in doing that type of thing.
East Timor... another venture you might justify for humanitarian reasons, but again we were in no danger.

2000-date
Iraq War.


The war in Afghanistan along with various actions in Libya, Somalia, Pakistan, probably other places I'm not aware of, are all related to terrorism.... definitely retaliation for an attack and a very real threat - at least from AQ in Afghanistan. We have to assume other actions are against real threats to us as well.

I would however argue, that if not for six decades of military interference in the Mideast (three generations of folks being given reason to hate us), people over there wouldn't give two chits about us and none of this would be an issue now.

You reap what you sow.

[Lawdog88]

Yes, but it's also good to have Jesus on reserve, just in case you need to drag him in.


Well Jesus was a Jew, after all. And it's not like the Jews didn't have a history of mixing it up with the locals; heck, they even used children with rocks to kill giants.

And as you know, Jesus may have redeemed the world, but there are plenty of folks in the world with nasty attitudes, who either don't know that, or who knowing that, don't want to be redeemed. Oh dear, what will we do with those meanies ?

Besides, sometimes you have to fight against the armed bad guys, you know, just like you said you would if one crawled in your window at night.

So is it any different to stand up to someone who would slaughter you for your faith, than it is to stand up against people who would slaughter you because you live in a country that is understood by the world (rightly or wrongly) to be "Christian" ?

February 7, 2013

Six Christians in Borno state, NIGERIA, were slain at First Baptist Church in Maiduguri on Christmas Eve. There was also an attack on an evangelical church in Yobe state; gunmen killed Pastor Yohana Sini, 50, and five other members of his church. The Islamic supremist group Boko Haram is strongly suspected in both massacres.So if that were you, you would lay down to the machete or the AK without fighting back ?

Wars are the same thing. Just bigger. See, e.g., WWII.

[lacuna]

Why are the followers of Christ also thieves, murderers, adulterers, selfish, greedy? Also, how much time have you spent in different churches across America to know that American Christians are collectively and generally double minded when it comes to this?

Would a christian be anyone claiming to follow Christ, or those actually following Christ?

These are valid questions.

A Christian, in my mind, is one who conducts his or her life within the moral parameters laid out by Jesus. A Christian is one who reveres and respects the Christ who taught the moral precepts and diligently strives to obey them out of love.

There are many who claim the mantle of Christianity but disdain some of its tenets when their own selfish agendas and intentions are thwarted. Rather than calling them Christians, perhaps it would be better to call them hypocrites or deceivers.

Simply calling ones self a Christian doesn't make one a Christian. Jesus said we will be known by the fruit our lives produce, the love we bear towards each other and how we conduct ourselves. And not by what title we self apply to our selves.

Are there Christians who lie, or steal, or kill, or over eat, or commit adultery. Yes, sadly. Most of us are weak and when temptations arise it's difficult - perhaps nearly impossible - to withstand those temptations. But it can be done if the heart is in the right place.

[QGator2414]

We should consult the volumes and volumes of helpful teaching and wisdom Jesus gave us when he returned to reign and be our God back in the late first century. I mean, it isn't like He would come back and then just not offer so much as one quotable insight to guide humanity toward His will for the next couple of millennia... er... hmm.

The moral right of self-defense, or the moral obligation to defend the weak and the innocent, don't require or assume that you, the agent, are morally flawless. You are not worshipping yourself when you exercise them.

So it follows that when these rights and obligations are aggregated by a nation, it isn't an implied assertion that there is a divine charter for that nation. Now, I will concede that sometimes people spiritualize the United States beyond what is appropriate, but the are independent phenomena. Your view, Dream, would seem to set a standard by which the only way to disprove state "idolatry" would be to always stand idly by, to never intercede on your own behalf or on behalf of one whom you could protect from injustice.

Quality Post!

[RealGatorFan]

I am not an authority on Theology but here goes:

You can't compare abortion with capital punishment or war. An unborn child committed no act that requires death and is at the mercy of the people. Murderers require capital punishment to preserve life. War is required only when it is just.

Genesis 9:6 - “Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image." God mandates the use of capital punishment.

The Book of Joshua also details numerous wars in the name of God. WWII was a war we as human beings could not ignore. Yes, other wars are not necessary but God does require us to obey our government's laws as long as the laws don't violate God's laws.

The Pharisees asked Jesus a question: "Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?" But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, "You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? Show me the coin used for paying the tax." They brought Him a denarius, and He asked them, "Whose portrait is this? And whose inscription?" "Caesar's," they replied. Then He said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's." In full agreement, the Apostle Paul taught, "This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor"

[108]

Don't worship Christ, try to emulate his love in action

That's the best any of us can do

The rest is out of our control

Love of war is an extension of ones ego

[Dreamliner]

Well Jesus was a Jew, after all. And it's not like the Jews didn't have a history of mixing it up with the locals; heck, they even used children with rocks to kill giants.

And as you know, Jesus may have redeemed the world, but there are plenty of folks in the world with nasty attitudes, who either don't know that, or who knowing that, don't want to be redeemed. Oh dear, what will we do with those meanies ?

Besides, sometimes you have to fight against the armed bad guys, you know, just like you said you would if one crawled in your window at night.

So is it any different to stand up to someone who would slaughter you for your faith, than it is to stand up against people who would slaughter you because you live in a country that is understood by the world (rightly or wrongly) to be "Christian" ?

So if that were you, you would lay down to the machete or the AK without fighting back ?

Wars are the same thing. Just bigger. See, e.g., WWII.

It also helps you inflame people, so as to turn them into bad guys who need killin.' Turns out we're good at that.

[Lawdog88]

It also helps you inflame people, so as to turn them into bad guys who need killin.' Turns out we're good at that.


Good point. About some people just need killin', that is.

Let's ponder for a moment, a short list of who those people might be, and where they can be found. Huuuuummmmm.

Some armed invader crawling in your bedroom window. Check.

Some terrorist in a third world country, bent on killing Christians, for the sake of killing Christians. Check.

Some robber taking an innocent person hostage in a bank, and threatening to kill her. Check.

A bunch of post 9/11 foreigners in a training camp overseas, with the announced mission to make it to the USA and do as much harm, mayhem, and killing as possible. Check.

A country run by misguided, crazed idiots who have developed a nuclear weapon and who are threatening to use it on a neighboring peaceful state, who doesn't have any defense. Check.

A country threatening to attack a long-standing ally of ours, who is isolated and in the middle of other miscreant, threatening countries. Perhaps.

I am sure you can add to the list, or that you have one of your own.

[wargunfan]

Why not ? I mean, it's not like Christians are interested in worshipping Christ.

What does Christ say about that nowadays? What is His current instruction to His church?

[Dreamliner]

What does Christ say about that nowadays? What is His current instruction to His church?

Get out and vote ? Kill more Muslims ?

[Lawdog88]

Get out and vote ? Kill more Muslims ?


Who's on your list ?

[MichiGator2002]

What does Christ say about that nowadays? What is His current instruction to His church?

Yep. Again, not one teaching or quotable insight given, not a single one, despite ostensibly fulfilling the promise to return in person less than a century after His eminently quotable, brief first visit. Sounds legit.

[wargunfan]

Get out and vote ? Kill more Muslims ?

I take it Christ is silent nowadays. So sorry.

[Dreamliner]

I take it Christ is silent nowadays. So sorry.

So you've heard from him lately ?

[MichiGator2002]

So you've heard from him lately ?

Well, being divine and nominally immortal if He so chooses in human form, I just assumed He must still be around if He came back already 19.5 millennia ago. But, whether that is the case or He just dropped by to see if He had forgotten to unplug the coffee machine, we still got not so much as one soundbite, not one teaching or edict or parable to add to the well-studied guidance of His first visit.

[GatorFanCF]

Dreamliner asks some questions that I love and hate all at the same time because they challenge me and how I conduct my faith - don't necessarily agree; but, I give him (her?) credit for making the discussion healthily provocative. The commentary reminds me of the scripture about "not everyone who cries 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of God." Yikes - that's a sobering thought! Thanks to all who chimed in.

One answer to the original question is cultural. Jews and many Christians all over the world drink alcohol; but, some folks - pretty much only in the USA - think it's "sinful." My son spent a few weeks in South Africa and when he came home I asked him what did he notice about the USA vs. SA; and, his first comment was "...we waste so much water." I'm sure in certain cultures wasting water is a punishable offense; and, if we are good stewards, we should not be wasting anything...our time, our money, our water, nor our love. So, folks, feel free to continue to post and "fear not."

[Dreamliner]

Well, being divine and nominally immortal if He so chooses in human form, I just assumed He must still be around if He came back already 19.5 millennia ago. But, whether that is the case or He just dropped by to see if He had forgotten to unplug the coffee machine, we still got not so much as one soundbite, not one teaching or edict or parable to add to the well-studied guidance of His first visit.

Seriously, the implication was that (strangely) if Jesus has already returned, then he must be silent. But if he hasn't returned (and is therefore 1.95 millennia late), what's he doing these days ? Is he in the chat room ?

[Lawdog88]

Seriously, the implication was that (strangely) if Jesus has already returned, then he must be silent. But if he hasn't returned (and is therefore 1.95 millennia late), what's he doing these days ? Is he in the chat room ?


So what good are you ? All you can do is pose questions that you can't answer ?

Anybody can do that.

Pshaw.

[Dreamliner]

So what good are you ? All you can do is pose questions that you can't answer ?

Anybody can do that.

Pshaw.

Did you guys ever answer the question as to why Jesus is 1.95 mil late ?

[Lawdog88]

Did you guys ever answer the question as to why Jesus is 1.95 mil late ?


Show us your kill list first.

What's in your wallet ?

[Lawdog88]

Dreamliner asks some questions that I love and hate all at the same time because they challenge me and how I conduct my faith - don't necessarily agree; but, I give him (her?) credit for making the discussion healthily provocative. The commentary reminds me of the scripture about "not everyone who cries 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of God." Yikes - that's a sobering thought! Thanks to all who chimed in.

One answer to the original question is cultural. Jews and many Christians all over the world drink alcohol; but, some folks - pretty much only in the USA - think it's "sinful." My son spent a few weeks in South Africa and when he came home I asked him what did he notice about the USA vs. SA; and, his first comment was "...we waste so much water." I'm sure in certain cultures wasting water is a punishable offense; and, if we are good stewards, we should not be wasting anything...our time, our money, our water, nor our love. So, folks, feel free to continue to post and "fear not."


It's a she, and don't be afraid of her. :laugh:

[GatorFanCF]

Thanks for the advice, Law...I already have a wife.

[MichiGator2002]

Did you guys ever answer the question as to why Jesus is 1.95 mil late ?

We did, by rejecting the fallacious conclusion that he is late at all. So by all means, feel free to roll or pass on how it is that Jesus could come once and it yields, centuries of highly studied and scrutinized teaching, but could come again and not so much as make a memorable comment on the weather. Everything you believe falls apart on your own need to rely on Advent 1.0 for all guidance from the Messiah, because Jesus came back to Earth and immediately must have gone into permanent, silent seclusion.