Can't Find Good Help

[G8trGr8t]

Anectodal evidence but just a data point for conversation.

I had dinner over the weekend with a friend/business associate who owns a major site and roadway construction company in SW Florida. They offer $11.5 per hour, free healthcare (for employee), 2 weeks paid vacation, and profit sharing (average $4k per year for starters, fully vested at 5 years) for untrained, unskilled labor willing to do manual labor. Average around 5% per year raise as skills warrant. Guaranteed 50 hours a week so overtime so is there to be had. They cannot find anybody that they can verify through e-verify in this market willing to show up everyday on time and work for that. Skilled labor and operators make more.

What is wrong with this picture?

[HudsonGator]

An economist would say that he simply isn't paying enough per hour. When supply = demand, you have the market price.

[orangeblueorangeblue]

Yeah holy cow $12/hr?

[gator10010]

An economist would say that he simply isn't paying enough per hour. When supply = demand, you have the market price.

Perhaps but what if there is another outside entity in the labor market affecting the supply and demand? For example government welfare programs?

[HudsonGator]

Perhaps but what if there is another outside entity in the labor market affecting the supply and demand? For example government welfare programs?

Or alien abductions for that matter...

[gator10010]

Yeah holy cow $12/hr?

What is wrong with $12/hr?

These positions sound like entry level positions for people willing to do manual labor with the high unemployment rate of young people, one would hope that $12/hr was better than just sitting at home.

[gator10010]

Or alien abductions for that matter...

Very good point

[HALLGATOR]

50 hours a week = over 30K to start. I don't see this as a bad wage for entry level especially with the benefits added in. Medical is worth a bunch by itself.

[gator10010]

50 hours a week = over 30K to start. I don't see this as a bad wage for entry level especially with the benefits added in. Medical is worth a bunch by itself.

The question remains...why is this business owner having a problem finding legal manual labor?

[Matthanuf06]

Bad work ethic plus government handouts = not willing to work for 30k

[gator10010]

Bad work ethic plus government handouts = not willing to work for 30k

I have to agree with this.

[HALLGATOR]

Let's make an assumption that most people who would fit the "manual labor" market would be males. What government benefits are these people getting that would preclude them from taking the job?

[HudsonGator]

Let's make an assumption that most people who would fit the "manual labor" market would be males. What government benefits are these people getting that would preclude them from taking the job?

Now, now, don't start trying to insert some rational discussion into this thread.

We don't need someone explaining that "welfare" is not something young healthy males are generally eligible to receive. Such a discussion does not fit the narrative.

[Matthanuf06]

Let's make an assumption that most people who would fit the "manual labor" market would be males. What government benefits are these people getting that would preclude them from taking the job?

Take a PT job, stay under the thresholds then get gov benies.

Or of course get fired and add unemployment and apply to be the CEO of a Fortune 500 company every week to stay qualified.

[HALLGATOR]

Take a PT job, stay under the thresholds then get gov benies.

Or of course get fired and add unemployment and apply to be the CEO of a Fortune 500 company every week to stay qualified.

To what benefits are they entitled?

[gator10010]

Now, now, don't start trying to insert some rational discussion into this thread.

We don't need someone explaining that "welfare" is not something young healthy males are generally eligible to receive. Such a discussion does not fit the narrative.

By all means please enlighten us irrational fear mongering extremists.

Explain how $30k a year isn't good enough pay for an 18 year old unskilled worker entering the labor market?

[Matthanuf06]

Once again, what benefits are you referring to? If we are using a single male as an example what are they entitled to?

I'm not going to pretend to know all the regs for each bit of aid, but food stamps for a single person is like $1250 gross a month or so.

[gator421]

I'm not going to pretend to know all the regs for each bit of aid, but food stamps for a single person is like $1250 gross a month or so.

Not saying you are wrong but that seems hard to believe.

[HudsonGator]

By all means please enlighten us irrational fear mongering extremists.

Explain how $30k a year isn't good enough pay for an 18 year old unskilled worker entering the labor market?

Read this thread again, find where I said $30K a year isn't good enough.

Give up?

[enviroGator]

I'm not going to pretend to know all the regs for each bit of aid, but food stamps for a single person is like $1250 gross a month or so.

Off by a decimal place... more like $130/month.

[HALLGATOR]

I'm not going to pretend to know all the regs for each bit of aid, but food stamps for a single person is like $1250 gross a month or so.

Even is true I think you will find the amount of food stamps at that level for a single person is not going to be very much.

[G8trGr8t]

Bad work ethic plus government handouts = not willing to work for 30k

this....he said they get plenty of qualified applicants but when they call them to go to work they are repeatedly told that they just needed to fill out application to keep their ue benefits. past time to cut unemployment back to 30 weeks.

what kind of benefits do people get? are you kidding me? unemployment, housing subsidies, food stamps, free phones, welfare, medicaid, wic

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/federalbenefitprograms/tp/toptenbenefits.htm

http://www.benefits.gov/benefits/browse-by-state/state/FL

http://portal.hud.gov/hudportal/HUD?src=/topics/rental_assistance/phprog

and before you start picking through the fine print about eleigibility let's get real about how much the applications are really verified and the honesty of many of the applicants.

[Matthanuf06]

Off by a decimal place... more like $130/month.

I just looked, I was high but it's $1211 gross per month for a single person. For a family of 4 it's $2498 gross.

Www.fns.usda.gov/snap/applicant_recipients/eligibility.htm

I have to website on my CPU and am posting on my phone so I apologize if the address isn't right

FYI I'm talking income requirements

[gator10010]

Read this thread again, find where I said $30K a year isn't good enough.

Give up?

So you are agreeing that $30k/year is a fair entry level wage for the labor market?

if so why aren't these jobs filled with 7.9% UE? Not to mention the unemployment rate is higher for young adults.

[enviroGator]

I just looked, I was high but it's $1211 gross per month for a single person. For a family of 4 it's $2498 gross.

Www.fns.usda.gov/snap/applicant_recipients/eligibility.htm

I have to website on my CPU and am posting on my phone so I apologize if the address isn't right

FYI I'm talking income requirements

Yeah, your earlier post made it sound like that was how much they were getting, not the eligibility basis.

[HudsonGator]

I just looked, I was high but it's $1211 gross per month for a single person. For a family of 4 it's $2498 gross.

Www.fns.usda.gov/snap/applicant_recipients/eligibility.htm

I have to website on my CPU and am posting on my phone so I apologize if the address isn't right

FYI I'm talking income requirements


$1,211 per month is the eligibility cut-off.

The maximum monthly allotment is $200 for a single person household.

[HudsonGator]

So you are agreeing that $30k/year is a fair entry level wage for the labor market?

if so why aren't these jobs filled with 7.9% UE? Not to mention the unemployment rate is higher for young adults.

What I think is irrelevant. If the OP is correct, the market would seem to indicate that it is not an attractive wage to the labor market.

[CHFG8R]

Anectodal evidence but just a data point for conversation.

I had dinner over the weekend with a friend/business associate who owns a major site and roadway construction company in SW Florida. They offer $11.5 per hour, free healthcare (for employee), 2 weeks paid vacation, and profit sharing (average $4k per year for starters, fully vested at 5 years) for untrained, unskilled labor willing to do manual labor. Average around 5% per year raise as skills warrant. Guaranteed 50 hours a week so overtime so is there to be had. They cannot find anybody that they can verify through e-verify in this market willing to show up everyday on time and work for that. Skilled labor and operators make more.

What is wrong with this picture?

The benefits package (substantial) will not resonate with most workers in that price range. I work in a similar field. They are all about the bottom line at that level (i.e. "How much will I get this week?") Drop benis and raise the salary north of $15/Hour and you'll probably get more bites - and save money.

[CHFG8R]

Yeah holy cow $12/hr?

Actually high for a laborer.

[G8trGr8t]

What I think is irrelevant. If the OP is correct, the market would seem to indicate that it is not an attractive wage to the labor market.

the point is that the market is being artificially influenced by gubmnt programs. if these same people had no benefits and had to choose between working for $30k per year or not eating, the market would supply plenty of labor.

right now, unemployment is another gubmnt inflated bubble, just like housing was and student loans/higher education costs are.

[CHFG8R]

These people (for the most part) don't care about profit sharing, free health insurance (I don't get that and I doubt many on this board do) and paid vacation. They want to know how much they'll have to spend at the bar on Friday (we pay on Tuesday as we were coming up short on Saturday's if you know what I mean).

If you keep the average laborer for more than 3 months you're doing good. Ultimately, you'll just need to hire and fire, hire and fire, hire and fire and take your 1 good guy out of 20. It is what it is.

Also, put ads on Craig's List. We get more traction there than anywhere else.

[G8trGr8t]

the bene's are there to try and attract people that want to stay and be a part of the company and not just a body looking for a paycheck. a company that actually cares that their employees are healthy and have some sort of a future retirement. sad to say that most younger generation do not appreciate the concept of an employer that cares about them. it is more like 1 in 50 that they get and keep but they do have a lot of people that have been there for 10, 15, 20+ years.

[CHFG8R]

the bene's are there to try and attract people that want to stay and be a part of the company and not just a body looking for a paycheck. a company that actually cares that their employees are healthy and have some sort of a future retirement. sad to say that most younger generation do not appreciate the concept of an employer that cares about them. it is more like 1 in 50 that they get and keep but they do have a lot of people that have been there for 10, 15, 20+ years.

Just sayin'. Not jsut the age bracket, but the (forgive me) class of worker. Sounds horrible, but I'm afraid that it's just the way it is. We've tried everything; high wages, salary (paid even when we are slow), benefits. . . same old story. Child support catches up and they leave, no-call/no-shows (drunk), arrested, etc., etc., etc.

Wanting to attract quality people, care about their health, etc. sounds fine and dandy, but fact is that the labor pool you are drawing from (again, for the most part) doesn't value those things. At least that's what I've seen in my experience and we draw a lot of our guys from the same pool of labor.

[HALLGATOR]

this....he said they get plenty of qualified applicants but when they call them to go to work they are repeatedly told that they just needed to fill out application to keep their ue benefits. past time to cut unemployment back to 30 weeks.

what kind of benefits do people get? are you kidding me? unemployment, housing subsidies, food stamps, free phones, welfare, medicaid, wic

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/federalbenefitprograms/tp/toptenbenefits.htm

http://www.benefits.gov/benefits/browse-by-state/state/FL

http://portal.hud.gov/hudportal/HUD?src=/topics/rental_assistance/phprog

and before you start picking through the fine print about eleigibility let's get real about how much the applications are really verified and the honesty of many of the applicants.


I'm not going to read through all of them but I still would be interested in some proof that these applicants are all gathering in bunches of government benefits and that is the reason they won't work? Just posting links to sites that talk about benefits really doesn't prove anything in my opinion.

My issue is not that benefits exist or that people use/abuse them but rather that they are so freely obtained that it must be the main reason the company can't get help.

[orangeblueorangeblue]

What is wrong with $12/hr?

These positions sound like entry level positions for people willing to do manual labor with the high unemployment rate of young people, one would hope that $12/hr was better than just sitting at home.

I made $12.50/hr the summer before my senior year in high school with absolutely no real world experience. And that was 10 years ago. In Florida.

[wgbgator]

If minimum wage was tied to productivity increases, it would be something like $33/hr today. $12 hr isnt much, and some people are flipping out over a proposal of a national $9 hour (which is still lower than the minimum wage in WA). $12 is less than the minimum wage in Australia.

[G8trGr8t]

I made $12.50/hr the summer before my senior year in high school with absolutely no real world experience. And that was 10 years ago. In Florida.

doing what???

working for family or family friend???

[orangeblueorangeblue]

No, a regular office job.

[G8trGr8t]

so they were paying a 16 year old kid with no real skill set $500 a week to do what? wow. hard to fathom when that is about what a semi-skilled receptionist is starting at today. are they still in business?

[orangeblueorangeblue]

Well I was 18.

And it wasn't full-time.

And I did a good job and got a raise after 6 months.

And they're still in business.

[wygator]

The benefits package (substantial) will not resonate with most workers in that price range. I work in a similar field. They are all about the bottom line at that level (i.e. "How much will I get this week?") Drop benis and raise the salary north of $15/Hour and you'll probably get more bites - and save money.

Soon, they won't be able to "drop the benis" for health care.

They will be required to provide it for full-time workers or pay the penalty if they don't. Either way, it comes out of the potential salary for the worker.

[GatorMid]

Seems like a much better deal than the $5/hr (minimum wage) with no other benefits I made back in HS working summers in the orange groves.

[CHFG8R]

Soon, they won't be able to "drop the benis" for health care.

They will be required to provide it for full-time workers or pay the penalty if they don't. Either way, it comes out of the potential salary for the worker.

I'm thinking the penalty will ultimately be the more cost-effective measure.

[reformedgator]

Anectodal evidence but just a data point for conversation.

I had dinner over the weekend with a friend/business associate who owns a major site and roadway construction company in SW Florida. They offer $11.5 per hour, free healthcare (for employee), 2 weeks paid vacation, and profit sharing (average $4k per year for starters, fully vested at 5 years) for untrained, unskilled labor willing to do manual labor. Average around 5% per year raise as skills warrant. Guaranteed 50 hours a week so overtime so is there to be had. They cannot find anybody that they can verify through e-verify in this market willing to show up everyday on time and work for that. Skilled labor and operators make more.

What is wrong with this picture?

Do they have to pass a drug test? It's getting to be more & more difficult to find workers for employers who require one.

[HALLGATOR]

I'm neither convinced, nor buying, the idea that government benefits is the prime reason behind not being able to fulfill this kind of a job. So far all I have seen that points to that being the case is people just saying so. I don't deny that could be the case for a certain amount of workers but I also think there is more to the equation than just that reason alone.

[wygator]

I'm neither convinced, nor buying, the idea that government benefits is the prime reason behind not being able to fulfill this kind of a job. So far all I have seen that points to that being the case is people just saying so. I don't deny that could be the case for a certain amount of workers but I also think there is more to the equation than just that reason alone.

Do you have a better explanation why the unemployed wouldn't take a job offering at least modest pay?

This is not new. Thirty years ago my wife was an office manager doing the hiring for a Tampa manufacturing company. People would apply for a job, give a lousy interview, then ask her to sign a paper acknowledging that they had interviewed for a job. They needed to be able to report that they were searching to keep their govt benefits.

[wgbgator]

I'm neither convinced, nor buying, the idea that government benefits is the prime reason behind not being able to fulfill this kind of a job. So far all I have seen that points to that being the case is people just saying so. I don't deny that could be the case for a certain amount of workers but I also think there is more to the equation than just that reason alone.

This piece was posted here awhile back, covers some of these themes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/25/magazine/skills-dont-pay-the-bills.html?pagewanted=all

Eric Isbister, the C.E.O. of GenMet, a metal-fabricating manufacturer outside Milwaukee, told me that he would hire as many skilled workers as show up at his door. Last year, he received 1,051 applications and found only 25 people who were qualified. He hired all of them, but soon had to fire 15. Part of Isbister’s pickiness, he says, comes from an avoidance of workers with experience in a “union-type job.” Isbister, after all, doesn’t abide by strict work rules and $30-an-hour salaries. At GenMet, the starting pay is $10 an hour. Those with an associate degree can make $15, which can rise to $18 an hour after several years of good performance. From what I understand, a new shift manager at a nearby McDonald’s can earn around $14 an hour.

The secret behind this skills gap is that it’s not a skills gap at all. I spoke to several other factory managers who also confessed that they had a hard time recruiting in-demand workers for $10-an-hour jobs. “It’s hard not to break out laughing,” says Mark Price, a labor economist at the Keystone Research Center, referring to manufacturers complaining about the shortage of skilled workers. “If there’s a skill shortage, there has to be rises in wages,” he says. “It’s basic economics.” After all, according to supply and demand, a shortage of workers with valuable skills should push wages up. Yet according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the number of skilled jobs has fallen and so have their wages.

[HALLGATOR]

Do you have a better explanation why the unemployed wouldn't take a job offering at least modest pay?

This is not new. Thirty years ago my wife was an office manager doing the hiring for a Tampa manufacturing company. People would apply for a job, give a lousy interview, then ask her to sign a paper acknowledging that they had interviewed for a job. They needed to be able to report that they were searching to keep their govt benefits.

Some might find out what the job entails and just not want to do it. Some may think the pay is not commiserate with the work or that there are jobs that provide more take home pay for the same work. Some may just be too lazy to work but in these cases that doesn't prove they are getting benefits to any extent. The thing is I think an immediate jump to the conclusion it has to be because most all of them are on the government dole has not been established. It's also an explanation that doesn't require much thinking.

Now it could be true that 90% of them are indeed receiving enough benefits that they have no intention of giving them up but I don't see any real evidence of that so far.

[QGator2414]

the point is that the market is being artificially influenced by gubmnt programs. if these same people had no benefits and had to choose between working for $30k per year or not eating, the market would supply plenty of labor.

right now, unemployment is another gubmnt inflated bubble, just like housing was and student loans/higher education costs are.

You are trying to educate the indoctrinated...

I really think some people can only view things through emotion. And is is all about emotions and fairness...

[Matthanuf06]

Some might find out what the job entails and just not want to do it. Some may think the pay is not commiserate with the work or that there are jobs that provide more take home pay for the same work. Some may just be too lazy to work but in these cases that doesn't prove they are getting benefits to any extent. The thing is I think an immediate jump to the conclusion it has to be because most all of them are on the government dole has not been established. It's also an explanation that doesn't require much thinking.

Now it could be true that 90% of them are indeed receiving enough benefits that they have no intention of giving them up but I don't see any real evidence of that so far.

The fact that we have huge unemployment and record citizens relying on the government boob isn't strong evidence?

[HALLGATOR]

The fact that we have huge unemployment and record citizens relying on the government boob isn't strong evidence?

No, it may be evidence that this may be the case with a certain amount of unemployed workers but there is no strong proof that even the largest percentage of them are not taking the job due to their receiving government aid.

[GatorFanCF]

I moved to Florida in '81 and was managing a retail store 3 blocks down the street from county seat and many government offices. People would walk in, shabbily dressed and ask "are you hiring?" and I would say "no"; then, they would ask me to sign paperwork saying they had attempted to get employment.

After the second time I realized this was a lazy way to continue to get benefits; and, I wouldn't sign. People would say "why not?" and I would reply: "you're not dressed professionally, you have no knowledge of what we do, nor do you have any inkling of how your skills could help us; and, frankly I'm offended that you would simply use me to continue to play your game. Feel free to go "apply" somewhere else" They stopped coming into the store. What is happening now is not new - human behavior being what it is; but, I do believe it is happening more frequently and with more money than ever before.

[QGator2414]

I moved to Florida in '81 and was managing a retail store 3 blocks down the street from county seat and many government offices. People would walk in, shabbily dressed and ask "are you hiring?" and I would say "no"; then, they would ask me to sign paperwork saying they had attempted to get employment.

After the second time I realized this was a lazy way to continue to get benefits; and, I wouldn't sign. People would say "why not?" and I would reply: "you're not dressed professionally, you have no knowledge of what we do, nor do you have any inkling of how your skills could help us; and, frankly I'm offended that you would simply use me to continue to play your game. Feel free to go "apply" somewhere else" They stopped coming into the store. What is happening now is not new - human behavior being what it is; but, I do believe it is happening more frequently and with more money than ever before.

Thank You

[gregthegator]

Today's younger generation has NO CLUE about physical work...if it don't involve an I-pad...and AIR conditioning...they AIN'T doing it....:whoa:

[wygator]

Some might find out what the job entails and just not want to do it. Some may think the pay is not commiserate with the work or that there are jobs that provide more take home pay for the same work. Some may just be too lazy to work but in these cases that doesn't prove they are getting benefits to any extent. The thing is I think an immediate jump to the conclusion it has to be because most all of them are on the government dole has not been established. It's also an explanation that doesn't require much thinking.

Now it could be true that 90% of them are indeed receiving enough benefits that they have no intention of giving them up but I don't see any real evidence of that so far.

I think the fact that they asked her to sign the paper for their job search report is evidence that they were receiving benefits.

[madgator]

isn't it $660.00/week when you factor in the 10 hours of overtime? So basically $35,000/year with benefits and profit sharing.

almost $40k a year to start for unskilled labor....plus benefits and he can't find employees......something is seriously wrong

[sappanama]

Well I was 18.

And it wasn't full-time.

And I did a good job and got a raise after 6 months.

And they're still in business.

Wow, that is a long summer break , and being 19 at hs grad has advantages

[gator1986]

Because Americans feel they are above hard labor work anymore. Bunch of sissies, I work out in the sun from sun up to sun down everyday. I absolutely love it!

[HALLGATOR]

I think the fact that they asked her to sign the paper for their job search report is evidence that they were receiving benefits.

So we know for a fact everyone who applied for the job asked for their papers to be signed? Or the ones who didn't work out were all because they wanted to fall back on government benefits. I don't think you can make that determination with any accuracy based on a conversation over a meal.

[G8trGr8t]

All I can tell you is that the owner of the company said that it is not uncommon for them to call and offer a job only to be told that the applicant wasn't ready to work yet but they had to keep applying to keep ue benefits current. Many are collecting ue benefits and then working side jobs for cash so that they can work when they want and not work when they don't want to. Something tells me that nothing short of original video of people making these statements will be enough to convince you of that though. Denial can be a powerful and useful tool when you want to convince yourself of something though.

[HALLGATOR]

All I can tell you is that the owner of the company said that it is not uncommon for them to call and offer a job only to be told that the applicant wasn't ready to work yet but they had to keep applying to keep ue benefits current. Many are collecting ue benefits and then working side jobs for cash so that they can work when they want and not work when they don't want to. Something tells me that nothing short of original video of people making these statements will be enough to convince you of that though. Denial can be a powerful and useful tool when you want to convince yourself of something though.

I don't disagree with what you are saying with respect to what you heard. I also totally believe he gets a lot of people who are not interested in a job but instead need their papers filled out. In addition I stated that doesn't seem to be bad entry-level pay although I don't live in the area. My problem has been the immediate assumption that the whole issue can be placed at the feet of government benefits. To me this is a simplified approach to a problem that, more than likely, has multiple causes. Since I have hired many people in my life it's not like I'm blind to what you run into with perspective employees.

[Dreamliner]

A California company offered me a job at $8 an hour to start. $12 (with all the freebies) sounds pretty damned good compared to that.

[Lawdog88]

A California company offered me a job at $8 an hour to start. $12 (with all the freebies) sounds pretty damned good compared to that.


Everybody knows that California unemployment (can't find a job, welfare) benefits are much better than that. Tell 'em no thanks and go get your dole.

[Dreamliner]

Everybody knows that California unemployment (can't find a job, welfare) benefits are much better than that. Tell 'em no thanks and go get your dole.

In retrospect, I probably should have swaggered in with, "Alright, where's mine, DAMMIT ?!"

[wygator]

So we know for a fact everyone who applied for the job asked for their papers to be signed? Or the ones who didn't work out were all because they wanted to fall back on government benefits. I don't think you can make that determination with any accuracy based on a conversation over a meal.

Good grief. I never said EVERYONE who applied was on the dole. Read my post.

Just that it is a significant factor. Reasonable?

[bluelang]

I'm usually opposed to the mindset that UE are keeping people from working, but I find this thread pretty compelling. If the economy is recovering it seems like it should be getting harder and harder to continue UE benefits right now.

That said, someone might be plenty able-bodied but if they have kids to watch then $30k/yr isn't going to cover daycare and etc.