Murphy should get more touches in the post

[UFreak]

I really love Murphy's ability to shoot the three. He is clearly deadly at it. But he has a very nice post game and such a nice touch around the rim. I think he is being under utilized as a scorer, or should I say limited in the ways he can score.
In the Missouri game as the clock was winding down, I was screaming for a post entry pass to Murphy. This could be our ticket for late-game success. You can't foul the guy, because he is automatic from the line. He has a number of nifty moves around the bucket, including a fade-away jumper and soft hook, up and under. And he is a good enough passer to find open players either streaking to the bucket or positioned outside the arc.

[fox]

He's just not that guy. He is fast and smooth when he gets it low with a little space but is not aggressive. Banging is not his game. He also seems to be stepping out more this year and with good reason.

[rserina]

Murphy has always been very efficient scoring in the paint. The problem is if you post up Murphy, then there is easy help since Young can't space the floor. Works a little better with Prather in the lineup.

[UFreak]

He's just not that guy. He is fast and smooth when he gets it low with a little space but is not aggressive. Banging is not his game. He also seems to be stepping out more this year and with good reason.

Had a couple real nice touches in the paint last night and finished perfectly fine. Early in his career, he used to get almost all of his touches in the paint and displayed a nice presence around the bucket and ability to finish.

[UFreak]

Murphy has always been very efficient scoring in the paint. The problem is if you post up Murphy, then there is easy help since Young can't space the floor. Works a little better with Prather in the lineup.

Yup, and perhaps that needs to be considered, especially since an entry into Young is probably not viable. He is someone you can put at the line if you are on defense.

[rserina]

Yup, and perhaps that needs to be considered, especially since an entry into Young is probably not viable. He is someone you can put at the line if you are on defense.
Take Young off the court?

[InstiGATOR1]

Right, Murphy has always been a clever inside scorer. His put back as a Frosh against FSU basically won that game for UF. Not surprisingly he took the put back under the rim and reversed it.

He is a good free throw shooter so I think he might have been a nice option inside against UMo. Off course if you believe the officials are not going to call a foul no matter what in that situation, then he is not the best option to power the ball through contact.

I did wonder how UMo would have reacted to a line up of Wilbekin, Boynton, Rosario, Frazier and Murphy. That would have certainly stretched their bigs.

[UFreak]

Take Young off the court?

Perhaps. On offense. And then back in for defense, in end game or final shot situations.

[regurgigator]

He's just not that guy. He is fast and smooth when he gets it low with a little space but is not aggressive. Banging is not his game. He also seems to be stepping out more this year and with good reason.

I agree he's smooth, but I don't think he's fast.

I agree they could go to him more in the post, but when he's passing or dribbling down there he's pretty susceptible to turning it over if there's a help defender that aggressively goes for the ball. Murphy is one of those players where you can usually see his turnovers coming a couple of seconds before they happen. He's just a little slow to react to the help or the overplay sometimes.

[UFreak]

I agree he's smooth, but I don't think he's fast.

I agree they could go to him more in the post, but when he's passing or dribbling down there he's pretty susceptible to turning it over if there's a help defender that aggressively goes for the ball. Murphy is one of those players where you can usually see his turnovers coming a couple of seconds before they happen. He's just a little slow to react to the help or the overplay sometimes.

At the end of a game, I think he is a better option than Patric because you can just foul Patrick. He has had some turnover issues this year, but those have been with him about 15 feet out and trying to bring it in. I am saying posting him up closer in the block. I think he would be/is good at passing out of the double team.

[tegator80]

I think this team is pretty much made, with a little bit of room for seasoning. Murph in his freshman and sophomore seasons liked to shoot it in the paint, he just wasn't stout enough to play the other bigs well on defense. Murph is playing the Bonner role this year. I know this is simplistic (their defense has a say so) but I would like them to run more plays where he catches the ball at the free throw line and can pass/shoot from there. That seems to be the more effective play right now for this team.

Now if Scottie continues to drive and the shoot/pass decision begins to slow down for him then we can add some more things for other teams to worry about. And Scottie is going to have to be more of a clutch free throw shooter.

But we have two senior guards who are enamored with their shooting 3s prowess. And that is going to be our offensive flavor.

[Lawdog88]

I agree he's smooth, but I don't think he's fast.

I agree they could go to him more in the post, but when he's passing or dribbling down there he's pretty susceptible to turning it over if there's a help defender that aggressively goes for the ball. Murphy is one of those players where you can usually see his turnovers coming a couple of seconds before they happen. He's just a little slow to react to the help or the overplay sometimes.


Painfully so.

Seems like he's very conservative on passing up looks too, but maybe he realizes that he just isn't that quick to get the shot off if the defender is close.

Gotta love his play in the paint last night though. I would love to see a power jam out of the kid, just once.

[UFreak]

I think this team is pretty much made, with a little bit of room for seasoning. Murph in his freshman and sophomore seasons liked to shoot it in the paint, he just wasn't stout enough to play the other bigs well on defense. Murph is playing the Bonner role this year. I know this is simplistic (their defense has a say so) but I would like them to run more plays where he catches the ball at the free throw line and can pass/shoot from there. That seems to be the more effective play right now for this team.

Now if Scottie continues to drive and the shoot/pass decision begins to slow down for him then we can add some more things for other teams to worry about. And Scottie is going to have to be more of a clutch free throw shooter.

But we have two senior guards who are enamored with their shooting 3s prowess. And that is going to be our offensive flavor.

Bonner had many low-post buckets that were important as a senior. I can't recall who the UT big was at the time who also had an inside-outside game like Bonner (Sledge or Slay or something). But Bonner backed him in repeatedly and scored on him. Of course Bonner was more stout than Murphy. Still, I think Murphy could be more of a post presence than we are seeing, especially on key possessions.

[rserina]

Perhaps. On offense. And then back in for defense, in end game or final shot situations.
Maybe for Frazier because he can shoot, but I have yet to see anything from Frazier or Prather to suggest we should take Young off the court. He is too talented of a player who demands you put a body on him to block out. Most teams make offense-defense substitutions at the end of a game because of foul trouble or to get a weak defensive starter off the court. But I don't see the benefit of taking a solid post scorer like Young off the court when Murphy is unbelievably effective from the arc. Can Murphy seal a really good post defender? How will he rebound in this situations? Can he make the skip pass against a double?

[SM1010]

Yes please. Murph has been way too perimeter oriented on offense lately.

His post game was looking great earlier in the season.

[UFreak]

Can Murphy seal a really good post defender?

How will he rebound in this situations?

Can he make the skip pass against a double?

Maybe, I'd like to at least see.

I think he would rebound well in that situation.

Yes, I think he can and maybe better than Young??

[rserina]

Maybe, I'd like to at least see.

I think he would rebound well in that situation.

Yes, I think he can and maybe better than Young??
Young is a possible first round next season. I don't think any coach worth his salt would electively take a kid like that off the court in favor of an offensively limited undersized four or a freshman wing, especially since Murphy extend the defense with his shooting and opens driving lanes and post opportunities for Young. I just don't see the upside in such a move.

[UFreak]

Young is a possible first round next season. I don't think any coach worth his salt would electively take a kid like that off the court in favor of an offensively limited undersized four or a freshman wing, especially since Murphy extend the defense with his shooting and opens driving lanes and post opportunities for Young. I just don't see the upside in such a move.

Agree to disagree??
I think it's worth a thought and a look. Are you saying to go inside to Young in an end-game situation? If so, I don't think that's a good situation for us. A smart team would immediately foul him on the entry and take their chances with him at the line. In short, I think Young may limit our scoring options at the end of a game if the defense is sold on fouling him, which is certainly an option. Or you can at least play him overly aggressive without impunity in those situations.
I think Young is a terrific player for us. This is not meant as a Young bash at all. I'm merely talking situationally. Just to be clear.

[rserina]

Are you saying to go inside to Young in an end-game situation? If so, I don't think that's a good situation for us. A smart team would immediately foul him on the entry and take their chances with him at the line. In short, I think Young may limit our scoring options at the end of a game if the defense is sold on fouling him, which is certainly an option. Or you can at least play him overly aggressive without impunity in those situations.
Not necessarily. I have never been a fan of feeding the post in late game scenarios. It is just too easy to defend. You can front and send help from the backside or you can keep the offensive player from establishing post position (b/c no official is going to call an off ball foul in that situation) or you can gap the post entry pass. Plus, I don't think any team is going to foul intentionally in those situations, even if it is a bad free throw shooter. If he is going in for a dunk or something, then maybe, but not if he is just getting an entry pass (which in the last minute of a game is without question one of the hardest things to do in college basketball).

But most of those things will hold for Murphy, too. He will have a very tough time establishing post position in those situations and because he isn't a threat on the pick and roll or for a lob, you don't have to worry about anything but him posting. If you are playing Murphy at the five in those situations, I want him out high in a pick and pop situation because it will open us up off the bounce--and that I think is the real underlying issue. Donovan goes to great lengths to argue that scoring in the paint isn't just about post entry feeds as much as about dribble penetration. Most of our poor possessions in late game situations have come when the ball stops with a perimeter player and ends in a jump shot or maybe a lateral pass.

Just to think of a few good late game finishes, they mostly occurred off dribble penetration, not post feeds or pull up jumpers. Miller's runner against Butler (after Dupay lost the ball trying to do the same), Brewer's dribble weave in the SECCG against South Carolina that resulted in the Noah tip in, the failed lob to Noah that resulted in the Brewer three point play against Georgetown, the Calathes runner against FSU, the Parsons three against South Carolina that was created by Walker pushing the ball into the lane on the break. Sure, you had Roberson's transition three against UGA and Walker's crazy three in Athens a couple of years ago, but it seems to me what we have missed the last two seasons or so as been guys being aggressive with ball penetration in those situations.

With Murphy spacing the floor, three able dribble penetrators in Wilbekin, Boynton, and Rosario, and a great finisher in Young, we should be able to get a good shot in those situations.

[GatorPlanet]

What I've been seeing the last couple of weeks is our offense getting one-dimensional when either Young or Murphy has to take a seat. Murphy spreads the floor and draws big men out, giving Young more room to work one on one inside. When Young sits, the post play disappears. When Murphy sits, the post play disappears.

Murphy has always had a crafty inside game, but he's not a high-riser. He's not usually been inclined to do that little hook shot, which he actually does as well as any Gator since Macklin. Since the hook is hard to block, I think that's the inside play we should look for when Pat is out.

[UFreak]

Not necessarily. I have never been a fan of feeding the post in late game scenarios. It is just too easy to defend. You can front and send help from the backside or you can keep the offensive player from establishing post position (b/c no official is going to call an off ball foul in that situation) or you can gap the post entry pass. Plus, I don't think any team is going to foul intentionally in those situations, even if it is a bad free throw shooter. If he is going in for a dunk or something, then maybe, but not if he is just getting an entry pass (which in the last minute of a game is without question one of the hardest things to do in college basketball).

But most of those things will hold for Murphy, too. He will have a very tough time establishing post position in those situations and because he isn't a threat on the pick and roll or for a lob, you don't have to worry about anything but him posting. If you are playing Murphy at the five in those situations, I want him out high in a pick and pop situation because it will open us up off the bounce--and that I think is the real underlying issue. Donovan goes to great lengths to argue that scoring in the paint isn't just about post entry feeds as much as about dribble penetration. Most of our poor possessions in late game situations have come when the ball stops with a perimeter player and ends in a jump shot or maybe a lateral pass.

Just to think of a few good late game finishes, they mostly occurred off dribble penetration, not post feeds or pull up jumpers. Miller's runner against Butler (after Dupay lost the ball trying to do the same), Brewer's dribble weave in the SECCG against South Carolina that resulted in the Noah tip in, the failed lob to Noah that resulted in the Brewer three point play against Georgetown, the Calathes runner against FSU, the Parsons three against South Carolina that was created by Walker pushing the ball into the lane on the break. Sure, you had Roberson's transition three against UGA and Walker's crazy three in Athens a couple of years ago, but it seems to me what we have missed the last two seasons or so as been guys being aggressive with ball penetration in those situations.

With Murphy spacing the floor, three able dribble penetrators in Wilbekin, Boynton, and Rosario, and a great finisher in Young, we should be able to get a good shot in those situations.

Because we shoot the ball so well from behind the arc, I'm not convinced that we couldn't swing an angle to get an entry pass to Murphy on the block. The question is can he post up and hold space. I think I've seen enough of him to say yes I think he could. And I do think he would be good and finding an open shooter if he does get the quick double, which I'm not sure he would get in the first place (unless he started having some success).
I think we could get an entry pass in to Murphy, late or early. He uses his body well and has very nice hands, very good and soft on the catch.

As for the lob play, you just don't see many ally oop dunks to win the game. I guess I'm saying regarding the lob, I don't seee that being a big factor in him not getting a chance in this scenario.

As for the pick and pop scenario you mentioned, I like it. But you wouldn't be able to do it every time with Murphy playing the 5. You would have to post him up some for it to be effective. I think both could go exist and would have to for either to be successful in getting good looks consistently.

As for other game finishers (or half finishers, same idea in many respects), there are a slew from entries into Horford that closed out halves. I remember we had to go to Horford against Purdue in the second round to finish them off. I can't recall if he had to hit THE LAST shot, but situationally, it was similar. Haslem used to get key touches in the post down the stretch as did Bonner.

And staying on the dribble penetration, to be clear I am a bigger fan of it as opposed to dumping it in the post and letting a big work to win the game. However, we don't have a guy who you can just roll it out to who can break people down off the dribble consistently. I think Boynton, Rosario and Scottie can do this, just not consistently enough. It's why we were so deadly in late game with Green. He could break down the defender in one on one and penetrate and dish or shoot or get fouled (and it was automatic when he went to the line). And I know this is nit picky, but Parson's 3 agains South Carolina was really more of a transition 3. That was pretty chaotic.

And lastly, I do think Young is a great finisher, just not in end-game situations. His free throw shooting is just not dependable. Again, I love Young. I am not slamming him. We all have limitations, one of his is free throws.

Lastly, I know this thread has evolved into a late-game scenario thread. I just want to say that was only one of the items I addressed in the OP. I also meant to plainly say that Murphy needs to get the ball more in the paint, regardless of the time of the game. He has a nice post game.

[rserina]

As for the lob play, you just don't see many ally oop dunks to win the game. I guess I'm saying regarding the lob, I don't seee that being a big factor in him not getting a chance in this scenario.
Oh, I agree. You don't design it, but the help defender rotating over on dribble penetration has to account for it. That's why I talked about it in the context of how a defender plays the five.


As for other game finishers (or half finishers, same idea in many respects), there are a slew from entries into Horford that closed out halves. I remember we had to go to Horford against Purdue in the second round to finish them off. I can't recall if he had to hit THE LAST shot, but situationally, it was similar. Haslem used to get key touches in the post down the stretch as did Bonner.
I am not saying you don't feed the post down the stretch, but rather it is a limited final play. I agree that you have to go in there, but taking Young out to go with Murphy on the low blocks eliminates a jump shooter to space for dribble penetration and hurts you on the defensive end if you don't make the shot and can't get Young back in the game. In the normal flow of the rotation, I don't have a problem with it, but in a late game situation it is a gamble.

It's why we were so deadly in late game with Green. He could break down the defender in one on one and penetrate and dish or shoot or get fouled (and it was automatic when he went to the line).
Well, we weren't that deadly since we struggled mightily in close games his two years as a starter, even going back to his freshman year when Green missed the runner against Louisville. He was solid on the pick and roll, but I would take Wilbekin and Rosario over him any day in terms of creating for himself off the bounce. As a matter of fact, that was one of the reasons we went with Brewer often in late game situations rather than Green. What made Green deadly was his ability to shoot off that high ball screen, thereby forcing teams to switch, hedge, or go over the screen. He could then get angle to the basket. But most of his turnovers and missed shots game in the lane when he did get there.

And I know this is nit picky, but Parson's 3 agains South Carolina was really more of a transition 3. That was pretty chaotic.
Yes it came in transition, but it was a transition jumper created by Walker's penetration to the free throw line. My point was dribble penetration, whether half-court or transition.

[RealDeal]

he's more of a finesse, 3 point player--he doesn't have the strength / aggressiveness to play low