Capitalism Broken?

[busigator96]

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/capitalism-is-so-broken-it-cant-be-fixed-2013-02-23?siteid=yhoof2

But look closely at his three innovations for saving capitalism. He’s really talking about saving America from a broken political system that was broken by capitalists. What if it’s the other way around? If capitalism is America’s biggest problem, why save it?

[viningsgator]

Capitalism is the sole reason why America has become the wealthiest nation in history. Not sure why anyone would leap to the idea it needs replacing?

Prior to capitalism over 90% of the world's population was illiterate and living in poverty. It helps sometimes to put things into perspective.

[g8orbill]

get rid of capitalism? and go to what? your prez's desire for socialism

makes me sick

[tegator80]

Kind of a silly naval gazing exercise. The only real path to redemption is...Detroit. We have to take things to a logical conclusion. That was the path of Rome, why not us?

Now will it happen soon? I doubt it. I expect us to "acquire" Mexico and other places that "need our help." After we have exhausted all of our possibilities then the inevitable crumbling will take off.

But what really is the base problem is an educated, independent minded and moral middle class is necessary to maintain our (any?) system in the long run. Guess what we have? Hint: See Detroit, and The Jerry Springer Show.

[G8trGr8t]

Capitalism is the sole reason why America has become the wealthiest nation in history. Not sure why anyone would leap to the idea it needs replacing?

Prior to capitalism over 90% of the world's population was illiterate and living in poverty. It helps sometimes to put things into perspective.

Are we wealthy? What is our per capital wealth when you include the national debt and unfounded liabilities? The real numbers might surprise you

[Matthanuf06]

The problem is that we aren't capitalists, and haven't been for awhile. We live in a country where winners and losers are picked by the government, sometimes on a dramatic scale and sometimes on the margin. That is not capitalism. The fact that corporations play by the required rules set by the government have negative outcomes is not capitalism.

[viningsgator]

Are we wealthy? What is our per capital wealth when you include the national debt and unfounded liabilities? The real numbers might surprise you

No doubt the past 12 plus years our government has been derelict with regards to the debt. However just as in the past we've found ways to bounce back. If I'm not mistaken you're in the energy business. Can you imagine the bounce this country would receive if we would responsibly tap our vast energy reserves?

[viningsgator]

The problem is that we aren't capitalists, and haven't been for awhile. We live in a country where winners and losers are picked by the government, sometimes on a dramatic scale and sometimes on the margin. That is not capitalism. The fact that corporations play by the required rules set by the government have negative outcomes is not capitalism.

Agreed. We are far more socialist/fascist than most would admit.

[surfn1080]

Are we wealthy? What is our per capital wealth when you include the national debt and unfounded liabilities? The real numbers might surprise you

Are we still really capitalist?? The real answer shouldn't surprise you.

[g8orbill]

Does not surprise me - I just do not want to see us continue down that socialist road

[JerseyGator01]

Drudge is reporting that gun manufacturers are starting to refuse to sell to government entities who in their opinion restrict gun rights. Good for them. Government needs to be remind once a blue moon if not more who provides the bacon.

We're not even closed to capitalism and haven't been for decades. I had a potential business shut down because a judge thought the building was too big for my type of business.

CORRUPTION RULES!!!!!

[MichiGator2002]

Heh, would be lovely if you could convince all major gunmakers to agree to only sell to any civilian government entity those arms and in those capacities firearms that are lawfully available to ordinary citizens.

It would mostly be an inconvenience, since you would basically see the military act as the straw purchaser for all civilian law enforcement, but it would be nicely symbolic.

[g8tr80]

Drudge is reporting that gun manufacturers are starting to refuse to sell to government entities who in their opinion restrict gun rights. Good for them. Government needs to be remind once a blue moon if not more who provides the bacon.

We're not even closed to capitalism and haven't been for decades. I had a potential business shut down because a judge thought the building was too big for my type of business.

CORRUPTION RULES!!!!!

Gun manufacturers calling out the hypocrisy and in fact making a point about somethig that is pretty friggin scary i.e. the government telling them they can't sell guns to its citizens, but OK to sell the same weapon to the governamnet. Kind of scary doncha think?????

[chemgator]

Capitalism hasn't failed, government has and socialism has. (And Obama has failed, just like his twin, GWB, failed before him.) We have a gov't that has no sense of cost control, and one that is on an exponential curve towards complete socialism. The Tea Party is the only group anywhere near power that has any sense of the changes needed, and they are largely too stupid to get their message out in a way that appeals to America's common sense, and the media delights in embarrassing them every chance they get, and ignoring them the rest of the time.

No one was saying that capitalism failed in the 1990's. In fact, it looked brilliantly successful. What changed? We have had two of the weakest leaders in American history, and a significant financial collapse after a housing bubble. Lost in the malaise is the fact that our patent office has screwed up and granted patents to anything and everything, which caused the product development process to essentially grind to a halt in many cases. We have a very litigious society, with outrageous awards, and that doesn't help capitalism.

I would argue that the liberal media is a bigger problem than either socialism or capitalism. There is so much liberal-bias in the media, that it is inevitable that we head deeper into socialism. As soon as a liberal becomes president, the media does everything in its power to shield him from criticism for his mistakes. Since Obama happens to be black, it is very convenient to be able to portray his critics as racists, even if only in subtle ways. The media is supposed to be our watchdog. Instead, they are cheerleaders for liberal causes, and fiscal responsibility is not a liberal cause.

I do agree with the last statement in the article, which recommends reinstating Glass-Stegal. A competent government, watched by a competent media, should be able to do this. I don't agree with the rest of the article.

[fredsanford]

Capitalism took a hit when corporate America rewrote the tax code to allow Americans, and not them, to take their losses.

American capitalism is about pocketing profits and writing off losses.

[gatorpa]

Capitalism took a hit when corporate America rewrote the tax code to allow Americans, and not them, to take their losses.

American capitalism is about pocketing profits and writing off losses.

Explain this please.......

As far as the tax code..the GOV limits my losses(as far as tax write offs) yet my gains are 100% fully taxed, not so fair to the American here.

[Burke]

What capitalism?

When have we been a truly capitalist society?

Closest we ever came was the last quarter of the 19th century.

Even then we were no where close to being completely free.

What's failing is statist intervention into what had been something closer to capitalism than any other.

We're just falling back into the rat pack of collectivist thug societies.

That's what's failing.

[chemgator]

Capitalism took a hit when corporate America rewrote the tax code to allow Americans, and not them, to take their losses.

American capitalism is about pocketing profits and writing off losses.
Good grief! Obama bails out GM, and corporate America is to blame? Exactly how did corporate America re-write the tax code to force Obama and the democrats to bail out GM? This should be interesting...

[Burke]

Why should corporations even pay income taxes?

It's just double taxation because stockholders have to pay taxes on their dividends.

Everything is an excuse to take what productive people earn.

[mocgator]

Corporations don't pay taxes. Ever. Never ever have. Never ever will. They collect taxes.

[gatorpa]

Why should corporations even pay income taxes?

It's just double taxation because stockholders have to pay taxes on their dividends.

Everything is an excuse to take what productive people earn.

Gotta feed the beast man.....

[108]

The problem is that we aren't capitalists, and haven't been for awhile. We live in a country where winners and losers are picked by the government, sometimes on a dramatic scale and sometimes on the margin. That is not capitalism. The fact that corporations play by the required rules set by the government have negative outcomes is not capitalism.

i wouldn't say the winners and losers are picked by the "government", when it is the capitalists that control the government

[108]

it is WE THE PEOPLE who have failed....capitalism is doing its purpose, which is to make profit, at all costs, and regardless if it goes against the benefit of the country its operating in

we allow our government to be bought and sold to the highest bidder, therefore its what we get

[exiledgator]

What capitalism?

When have we been a truly capitalist society?

Closest we ever came was the last quarter of the 19th century.

Even then we were no where close to being completely free.

What's failing is statist intervention into what had been something closer to capitalism than any other.

We're just falling back into the rat pack of collectivist thug societies.

That's what's failing.

Ah, yes. The Gilded Age. Those WERE the days....

[Matthanuf06]

i wouldn't say the winners and losers are picked by the "government", when it is the capitalists that control the government

By definition that isn't capitalism.

[108]

By definition that isn't capitalism.

the lack of "free trade"?

[Burke]

Laissez faire capitalism is an economic system in which the govt stays out of the economy.

Not only does our govt not stay out of the economy, it damn well runs it.

Which is precisely why it is collapsing.

[busigator96]

When currency is monopolized and manipulated it doesn't matter the laws or the economic model used.

[108]

Laissez faire capitalism is an economic system in which the govt stays out of the economy.

other than Gov protecting property rights

which the rest would crumble without

but the thing about "laissez faire" is that business wants no part of it...if so, we would be going more towards it

and thats where i have to laugh about your disdain for Gov in this regard....its the capitalists that control Gov, buying off and putting in elected officials to do their bidding

you blame Gov for all ills, but a central Gov is a capitalists best friend :yes:

[Burke]

Protecting property rights instead of violating them for some supposed public good IS staying out of the economy.

[busigator96]

Global resources need to be shared not perpetually fought over.

[Matthanuf06]

other than Gov protecting property rights

which the rest would crumble without

but the thing about "laissez faire" is that business wants no part of it...if so, we would be going more towards it

and thats where i have to laugh about your disdain for Gov in this regard....its the capitalists that control Gov, buying off and putting in elected officials to do their bidding

you blame Gov for all ills, but a central Gov is a capitalists best friend :yes:

Therefore we are not capitalists. I know you hate the word and the system, but you simply cannot claim that this system is anything remotely close to capitalism.

Whether or not business owners want the government involved, the fact is the government is involved and the system is able to be corrupted. A business owner has zero choice but to play by those rules. If a business owners had naive dreams of capitalism and did not play the current government game that firm would be put out of business. The government would give more breaks and more money to a competitor that did play the game. It's play the game or die.

That is NOT capitalism.

[Burke]

Govts that involve themselves with businesses, granting some special favors, licenses, grants, etc. are what we call fascist systems.

Which is what we really are now.

[wgbgator]

There is no "capitalism" without the state.

[Matthanuf06]

There is no "capitalism" without the state.

The state needs to protect property rights. Nobody is denying that. However capitalism isn't a system like ours that picks winners and losers.

[surfn1080]

There is no "capitalism" without the state.

Dare I ask you logically explain that statement?

[108]

Therefore we are not capitalists. I know you hate the word and the system, but you simply cannot claim that this system is anything remotely close to capitalism.

Whether or not business owners want the government involved, the fact is the government is involved and the system is able to be corrupted. A business owner has zero choice but to play by those rules. If a business owners had naive dreams of capitalism and did not play the current government game that firm would be put out of business. The government would give more breaks and more money to a competitor that did play the game. It's play the game or die.

That is NOT capitalism.

well then, what you seem to want is anarchism, because capitalism needs the state, and clearly you are not in favor of limiting the "free-speech" of corporations to prevent the Crony Capitalism you despise

[108]

nm

[wgbgator]

Dare I ask you logically explain that statement?


There can be no "capitalism " without the state or something like it. The state protects property, enforces contracts and other things/rights that are essential to capitalism. Its stands to reason also that the people with the most property and the most valuable contracts will use the mechanism of the state to their advantage if they can, usually in a way that protects their own interests and limits competition.

[108]

There can be no "capitalism " without the state or something like it. The state protects property, enforces contracts and other things/rights that are essential to capitalism. Its stands to reason also that the people with the most property and the most valuable contracts will use the mechanism of the state to their advantage if they can, usually in a way that protects their own interests and limits competition.

yes, in fact, it wouldn't be capitalism if it didn't try to take advantage, protect its own interests, and limit competition...

so capitalism is doing nothing wrong in and of itself, that is its nature, and part of human nature

the other part is the the collective

clearly we need both for long term survival as a species

the trick is to properly regulate capitalism so that it doesn't eat itself

[Burke]

"Regulated" laissez faire capitalism is a contradiction in terms.

Like free slaves.

[wgbgator]

"Regulated" laissez faire capitalism is a contradiction in terms.

Like free slaves.

Wrong. Laissez-faire capitalists believe that free-markets are self-regulating. So, they are regulated by people, not government. There are no unregulated markets. An unregulated market is what is a contradiction in terms, because that is disorderly chaos, not a functioning construct.

[Burke]

Regulation is forcing the lives of people who are doing no wrong for some supposed public good.

But there is no good to be obtained by dealing with others by force.

Which is what criminals do.

[108]

Regulation is forcing the lives of people who are doing no wrong for some supposed public good.

But there is no good to be obtained by dealing with others by force.

Which is what criminals do.

if nobody was "doing wrong", there would be no need for regulation now would there :nervous smile:

[Burke]

Actually, the regulators are the ones doing wrong mostly.

That's what regulation is really for.

[108]

Actually, the regulators are the ones doing wrong mostly.

That's what regulation is really for.

thats because the regulators are in bed with the capitalists.....'fox's guarding the chicken hen' so to speak

but again, you have no desire to prevent Crony Capitalism since it 'limits free speech', so what's the point here?

[Burke]

Crony capitalism is another contradiction in terms.

In a laissez faire system, people in govt don't have Cronys.

Because that's not capitalism.

It's fascism.

[busigator96]

We are under a plutocracy

[108]

Crony capitalism is another contradiction on terms.

In a laissez faire system, people in govt don't have Cronys.

Because that's not capitalism.

It's fascism.

so how do you expect to get true laissez faire capitalism if the capitalists want no part of it, and the government has a duty to protect its citizens from harm?

[Burke]

First, people have to learn to respect individual rights.

Then they learn that they deal by trade rather than fighting like animals.

Then they learn that the only purpose of govt is to protect individual rights.

Which, in large measure, means outlawing the use of force by some against others, except in self-defense,.

And not by violating the rights of its citizens.

So we can pursue life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

[rajinGator]

so how do you expect to get true laissez faire capitalism if the capitalists want no part of it, and the government has a duty to protect its citizens from harm?

Why do you say Capitalists, or the vast majority, want no part of it? Think that is a false premise.

[Burke]

Rand wrote that we now have an "aristocracy of pull." That is, an aristocracy of people with influence in govt. The saying in govt is that if you aren't at the table you are on the menu.

Regardless of your intentions, you need a lobbyist protecting your interests, keeping you off the menu.

[Matthanuf06]

thats because the regulators are in bed with the capitalists.....'fox's guarding the chicken hen' so to speak

but again, you have no desire to prevent Crony Capitalism since it 'limits free speech', so what's the point here?

So you admit that it is not capitalism, so why in other posts you act as if capitalism has failed?

[wgbgator]

Yeah capitalism only fails because people act like self-interested human beings and not uber-rational machines, a situation that tends to produce contradictions and crisises rather frequently. Since people aren't uber-rational machines, those contradictions are inherent to capitalism. You guys speak of crony capitalism as if its something different than capitalism. What you call "capitalism" seems to basically be an idealized form of human behavior and exchange which is both unprecedented and fantastical in its naivety.

[Burke]

Capitalism brought us the modern world.