Is Kentucky's recent run done?

[UFLAW81]

Looks like the NBA will be under pressure to allow future 1st round picks to be first round picks.

http://collegebasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/02/13/nerlens-noels-knee-injury-and-the-unfairness-of-the-one-and-done-rule/related/

[99gator]

no. they'll just sign the top guys who aren't going into the nba immediately.

i think people misread calipari a little bit. he has a strategy based on current rules. he believes the best talent, regardless of age, will win. and maybe, just maybe (like this year's team) you have guys who won't be one and done. when you add those guys to next year's one and dones, then you are really loaded.

however, if they do away with one and done, he'll operate under a different philosophy. i think people underestimate his ability to win if the rules were to change, especially at a place like kentucky.

[gatorchris]

An opinion piece does not equal pressure on the NBA. That being said, I wish they would go to an either/or scenario. Get drafted and play straight from HS or go to college and play 3 years. It would help college basketball a ton, and in the end the NBA because kids get developed. I cant imagine following a team like Kentucky that is a revolving door to the NBA. Zero connection with the players. No knock on Beal and I fully support him leaving when he did, but Ill have a much better memory of guys like Young, Murph, Parsons, etc because I watched them play longer. I watched them grow out of mistakes, or develop new shots and moves. You dont make those connections to one and dones, and I hope the NBA and NCAA can do something that helps those guys that are legit straight out of HS kids as well as protecting the college game.

[Osiris_DPM]

no. they'll just sign the top guys who aren't going into the nba immediately.

i think people misread calipari a little bit. he has a strategy based on current rules. he believes the best talent, regardless of age, will win. and maybe, just maybe (like this year's team) you have guys who won't be one and done. when you add those guys to next year's one and dones, then you are really loaded.

however, if they do away with one and done, he'll operate under a different philosophy. i think people underestimate his ability to win if the rules were to change, especially at a place like kentucky.

Will they be? This year's group of top 25 players came to UK for the same reason the others under Cal did - the "one and done" mentality. How do those type players react to having their minutes chopped in half and coming off the bench next year?

Also, some of these players aren't like MKG* and Davis, who had high basketball IQ and played hard. Calipari is having a hard enough time trying to motivate these guys to play ball for 40 minutes. Going to the bench in favor of the next crew could cause some chemistry issues. The way it looks on paper isn't always the way it works on the court.

I'd expect most of this year's UK freshman to bolt if there is a chance of being drafted.

*MKG was coached in HS by Kevin Boyle, who currently coaches at Monteverde. Boyle was the HS coach of several NBA players, including Kyrie Irving. His players are known for being college ready and hard workers, which is why people expect Kasey Hill to be ready to hit the ground running next year.

[tilly]

Actually, I've heard rumblings recently that the NBA is more likely to make it two years than to roll back to zero. I thought I heard that when David Stern was on Mike and Mike a few weeks back...unless I misunderstood.

[tegator80]

The whole point for the one-and-done rule is that the owners needed to be saved from themselves. Too many saw raw skill against incompetent competition and decided that they were getting the next Garnett or Bryant. They WERE first round selections and they flamed out bigtime.

A two-and-done is about as bad. But it may push kids to play in Europe and earn money for two years instead of "going to class" in the US. That would then set up the European leagues as the de facto NBA farm system.

[themistocles]

Just like with just about everything else, one can bring forth good arguments supporting pretty much any possible approach to this.

Personally, and from my experience, it appears that some are ready to contribute either directly out of high school, or after one year of college ball. However, I think those are the exceptions, not the rule.

One thing I really don't understand at all is how Cali somehow became this AMAZING recruiter overnight. He was always pretty good, but merely coaching at Ky should not have the instant impact that it did. I have to think that things like the Brandon Knight phenomena are not unusual among Ky recruits today.

[InstiGATOR1]

Looks like the NBA will be under pressure to allow future 1st round picks to be first round picks.

http://collegebasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/02/13/nerlens-noels-knee-injury-and-the-unfairness-of-the-one-and-done-rule/related/

So you think an injury to a top potential draft pick is pressure for the NBA and its union to negotiate away the one year post high school/age limit requirement? Alas you nor columnists are interested parties to the negotiations.

The interested parties are the NBA and its union? That makes it the owners and the players though the players who should want to preserve jobs of older players seemingly are undermined by their agents who want more turnover and more contracts to take their cut from.

I would be the ownership, GM and coaches of Portland might wish there was a two year post secondary/age requirement so they might have seen that Greg Oden was injury prone. If I am an NBA owner with a high pick, that is what I have to ask myself. Is this injury as fluke and he will bounce back and play a long career or is this a sign that tall guy with a slight frame can not stand the torque he puts on his body. Of course there will be a bit of a split among owners based on current rosters. Bad teams might want fewer rules on which players can be drafted. Still overall, I can not see one injury affecting how the owners feel that much.

As far as players, they should want at least a two and done rule. But as I said above, they are so conditioned to have their agents speak for them, they do not get that agents and them may have different incentives in this case. Agents probably don't care. If Noel is not taken first, then someone else will be and the contracts and thus the percentage is the same. If Noel would have become a max salary guy but doesnt not, well someone else will be. I guess if an agent thinks he has an advantage in getting clients out of high school, they might favor this. Otherwise, it appears to me to be no big concern to agents.

So the players, ie all players that will be an old player someday, have a big incentive to keep out high school kids. The owners probably have a smaller incentive to keep out high school kids and I have ignored that high school draftees maybe flamed out at a higher rate and so that could be another incentive for owners. Agents are probably indifferent. So I will be surprised if anything more happens than a couple of column and a bit of on air hand wringing about this unfortunate injury. BTW, Noel probably goes top 5 anyway.

[jrcg8tor]

Even if it does not change I hear they are having issues with how they are doing things now. The Goodwin family is very upset right now. Seems World Wide Wes left an empty bag at their door this morning with a note that the boosters were wanting a refund.

[Osiris_DPM]

The whole point for the one-and-done rule is that the owners needed to be saved from themselves. Too many saw raw skill against incompetent competition and decided that they were getting the next Garnett or Bryant. They WERE first round selections and they flamed out bigtime.

A two-and-done is about as bad. But it may push kids to play in Europe and earn money for two years instead of "going to class" in the US. That would then set up the European leagues as the de facto NBA farm system.

That isn't going to happen, as European teams have caps on non-citizens per team. There is little chance that European teams are going to recklessly spend precious roster slots on players that have not even faced a day of college level competition, unless these are can't miss prospects. Even then, I'd venture a guess that many of those kids will still opt for 2 years of college rather than taking risks with European teams that have long histories of not paying their players. Sure, a few may take that route, but it would not be a widespread mass exodus of HS talent like some suggest. I would note that several of the high profile college players to depart early for Europe had dual citizenship, and some have had a hard time finding their way to the NBA after doing so.

[bakaduin]

I don't understand how the whole age restriction isn't illegal.

Take Noel for instance and a load of hypotheticals. He is likely the number 2 pick in the NBA last year (after Davis and number 1 if for this model we assume Davis would have been the year before.) Lets say this injury costs him 15 spots and around 6 million dollars over the three year contract all because of an arbitrary rule prevents him from going straight to the NBA? I know the NFL's rule was tried in court and upheld but it just seems wrong on so many levels.

[regurgigator]

An opinion piece does not equal pressure on the NBA. That being said, I wish they would go to an either/or scenario. Get drafted and play straight from HS or go to college and play 3 years. It would help college basketball a ton, and in the end the NBA because kids get developed.

Yeah, maybe college basketball would become as popular as college baseball if all the high school stars bypassed college and went straight to NBA/farm teams... :huh: :nervous smile:



I hope the NBA goes to a 2-year rule as Stern has mentioned. I think that would help the popularity of college basketball; help the popularity of the NBA; and help most of the players (based on what happened to a lot of the players who went straight to the NBA out of high school when it was allowed).

[PhinGator]

No one is forced to go to college to get to NBA. Noel or anybody else could have gone and played in Europe for a year, two, their whole career. Playing in the NBA is not a right - you have to meet the qualifications agreed upon by your employer. This is an NBA rule, not an NCAA rule. I am surprised more players don't go to Europe or the NBDL (can they) for a while.

[PhinGator]

Further, you have to be 35 to be President, 30 to be a Senator, and 25 to be a Congressman. I see no reason that requiring a player to be 19 to play NBA should be illegal.

[UFreak]

I don't understand how the whole age restriction isn't illegal.

Take Noel for instance and a load of hypotheticals. He is likely the number 2 pick in the NBA last year (after Davis and number 1 if for this model we assume Davis would have been the year before.) Lets say this injury costs him 15 spots and around 6 million dollars over the three year contract all because of an arbitrary rule prevents him from going straight to the NBA? I know the NFL's rule was tried in court and upheld but it just seems wrong on so many levels.

Completely agree

[tommyuf21]

No one is forced to go to college to get to NBA. Noel or anybody else could have gone and played in Europe for a year, two, their whole career. Playing in the NBA is not a right - you have to meet the qualifications agreed upon by your employer. This is an NBA rule, not an NCAA rule. I am surprised more players don't go to Europe or the NBDL (can they) for a while.

The NBA needs to change their qualifications. You should be able to go straight to the NBA if you can. If not, then two years in college before being draft elgible.

Any contact whatsoever with an agent makes you a professional and all college elgibility is forfeited, regardless of age of contact, in other words you could lose your elgibility at 13.

[InstiGATOR1]

I don't understand how the whole age restriction isn't illegal.

Originally the US Supreme Court found unionization an illegal restraint of trade under the anti-trust acts. That as you might imagine upset some people. Congress reacted by exempting unions and companies that enter into contracts with them from anti-trust acts. So that is why Noel has no basis to challenge the rule.

The NBA needs to change their qualifications. You should be able to go straight to the NBA if you can. If not, then two years in college before being draft elgible.

Any contact whatsoever with an agent makes you a professional and all college elgibility is forfeited, regardless of age of contact, in other words you could lose your elgibility at 13.


Your first suggestion belongs to the NBA as you say. The NCAA can do nothing about it. Your second suggestion is on the NCAA could enforce right now, maybe even without a rule change.

I do not like the baseball rule because in practice it works out that players can enter the draft after high school, their SOPH year, their JR year and their SR year. Baseball players like one former student of mine who has been in a couple of worlds series are often not around campus long enough for fans to get a rooting interest in them.

[tommyuf21]

My opinion is rooted in the belief that one and done players are bad for college basketball and do nothing but give the NBA scouts a pass. If you're good enough for the league after high school, the onus is on the people who are going to hire you to do their due dilligence in assessing your worthiness. The college game should not suffer because some people are incompetent at their jobs.

As for what that one and done player does for the university that he is at, in most cases, its not very much. For all of your Carmelo Anthony's and Anthony Davis', you have dozens of players who leave little to no legacy during their 6-7 months in that zip code. Most are never remembered unless they were the key player on a championship team. Do you think Austin Rivers will be remembered the same as Hill, Laettner, etc?

Two years is the minimum standard in my book. It's long enough for the fans to get to know the player, for the player to have accountability for academic progress and for the sport to get the benefit of outstanding players.

[j7]

It's not well thought out but how about this -

NBA teams can draft the rights to a player out of HS but the player still goes to college for a time. When the pplayer is done with their college time, they go to the NBA assigned to that NBA team. As part of the NBA team drafting their rights to the player, they are to take out an injury insurance policy for that player based on where they took them in the draft. At certain intervals, the policy would be reavaluated based on how the player is progressing (i.e. player is drafted 40th out of HS so the policy is for 40th pick money but during the player's time in college, the player's draft position potentional could rise to say 4th pick meaning the insurance policy would have to be revised to cover 4th pick money.)

[99gator]

the problem with players coming out of high school (for the nba) is that bad teams stay bad.

if you draft inferior talent, the rich get richer. if you draft the superior talent, you are competing with boys against men only to watch those boys grow up, become men, and sign with another squad in free agency.

the one and done was implemented to at least let teams see if they were walking into a kwame brown situation.

if you look at last year's nba draft (a great draft class by most accounts), the teams that were in the draft lottery still suck.

you are starting to see situations where the teams that suck aren't mismanaged, they just can't attract free agents because of the cities they are in and the talent they have is raw.

that and the salary cap is screwed up, which is why they had a cap forgiveness move they were allowed to make. but, even with that, there are teams that are screwed because of a contract on a player that went south while the miami heat somehow are under the salary cap.

the basic problem with that league is that no other sport is dependent on a franchise player like basketball. you can draft in the top 5 of the nba draft for 5 straight years and still have a team that sucks. hey minnesota.....corey brewer (7th pick, sue me), kevin love, ricky rubio, wesley johnson, and derrick williams. just as an example

[GatorLurker]

I think that any person that can get drafted by the NBA at any age should be allowed to do so. If you are good enough, then go for it. If you aren't but some owner/gm is dumb enough to give you essentially a winning Lottery ticket, that is also awesome.

Now for my thinking about college "students" that are only in school to get ready for pro sports.

In my early days as an academic I railed against the commercialism of collegiate football in particular as well as men's basketball. The whole enterprise seemed at be at odds with the primary mission of the University: scholarship and education.

Now I have a radically different position.

If I were Emperor I would institute a new college of Athletic Performance where a student can go to get training in athletic performance. Ordinary entrance requirements (HS GPA and SAT) are waived, but a portfolio is proffered instead. This parallels the entrance to Fine Arts.

And when performing they get compensated.

And a large part of the curriculum would be learning how to coach because the vast majority of the students will end up there instead of getting paid to perform after college. The same is true for Fine Arts majors where you replace "coach" with "instructor" or "teacher".

And the truly gifted Fine Arts performers are not forbidden from being employed until after Freshman year.

[UFLAW81]

My larger thought is the NBA will now fear the emergence of a new league which will poach high schools for talent.
I do think the one and done is done. That it happened on our court is a story that will endure.

[InstiGATOR1]

And the truly gifted Fine Arts performers are not forbidden from being employed until after Freshman year.

I agree that the fine arts model is one to keep in mind as athletes are not the only students seeking to learn a college while maybe not seekng a credential. Many writing students at the finest colleges in the county would like nothing better than to publish their first best seller and not worry about degree requirements.

As it turns out truly gifted basketball players are not prohibited from employment in that field ever. They most certainly can enroll in college and play basketball for money. Of course, not for the college. Just as the fine arts student can be enrolled while selling creations to the private market not the university, basketball players can too.

The basketball player might have to go overseas. They might have to enroll in a college in their D-leauge season for a year. It might be redundant as your practice time and coaching might be better in pro ball than college ball, but you can go to college and play professional basketball if you wish. The school is not buying the book or artwork from the fine arts student nor is the school buying the basketball performance from the athlete. Now maybe fine arts students can get work study opportunities or assistantships and I think that would be good for athlete, but that is another issue.

The only thing the basketball player can not do that the fine arts student can do is compete at the highest level in their area. That is solely because of a union contract. Some fine arts areas do not have unions and in others like acting they have not chosen to try to keep out younger actors and actresses.

[tilly]

I don't understand how the whole age restriction isn't illegal.

Take Noel for instance and a load of hypotheticals. He is likely the number 2 pick in the NBA last year (after Davis and number 1 if for this model we assume Davis would have been the year before.) Lets say this injury costs him 15 spots and around 6 million dollars over the three year contract all because of an arbitrary rule prevents him from going straight to the NBA? I know the NFL's rule was tried in court and upheld but it just seems wrong on so many levels.

But an employer has rights as well. They can organize and set rules that they feel are in the best interest of their business. Similar to a company requiring a college degree. Often times there are MORE qualified applicants who may not have one...It will at times be at the expense of a more qualified applicant, but the rule and requirement are legal.

[InstiGATOR1]

But an employer has rights as well. They can organize and set rules that they feel are in the best interest of their business. Similar to a company requiring a college degree. Often times there are MORE qualified applicants who may not have one...It will at times be at the expense of a more qualified applicant, but the rule and requirement are legal.

Bit the NBA is NOT an employer in what we are discussing. The individual teams are. The individual teams can not conspire together to restain trade. However in the contrext of a labor agreement with a union, the law is different.

[REM08]

It's not well thought out but how about this -

NBA teams can draft the rights to a player out of HS but the player still goes to college for a time. When the pplayer is done with their college time, they go to the NBA assigned to that NBA team. As part of the NBA team drafting their rights to the player, they are to take out an injury insurance policy for that player based on where they took them in the draft. At certain intervals, the policy would be reavaluated based on how the player is progressing (i.e. player is drafted 40th out of HS so the policy is for 40th pick money but during the player's time in college, the player's draft position potentional could rise to say 4th pick meaning the insurance policy would have to be revised to cover 4th pick money.)

The problem comes in when NBA teams start influencing what college their property goes to. Kids would get funneled and I can't see the team being hands off with the player while he was in college.

[tommyuf21]

The problem comes in when NBA teams start influencing what college their property goes to. Kids would get funneled and I can't see the team being hands off with the player while he was in college.

Agree with you on this, although I think agents presently have way too much control over the college picking process as is stands.

The more influence the money grabbers have (whether it be agents, NBA scouts, etc), the worse it is for the college game.

[BEH]

no. they'll just sign the top guys who aren't going into the nba immediately.

i think people misread calipari a little bit. he has a strategy based on current rules. he believes the best talent, regardless of age, will win. and maybe, just maybe (like this year's team) you have guys who won't be one and done. when you add those guys to next year's one and dones, then you are really loaded.

however, if they do away with one and done, he'll operate under a different philosophy. i think people underestimate his ability to win if the rules were to change, especially at a place like kentucky.Exactly. Thanks 99gator you understand the deal.

[Osiris_DPM]

the problem with players coming out of high school (for the nba) is that bad teams stay bad.

if you draft inferior talent, the rich get richer. if you draft the superior talent, you are competing with boys against men only to watch those boys grow up, become men, and sign with another squad in free agency.

. . .



The new collective bargaining agreement changes that. Previously, a player was a free agent after the expiration of his first contract and the exact scenario you described frequently happened. Now there are restrictions, so teams that draft a player have rights to that player for 7 years (if I remember the time period correctly). The contract amounts are locked in under the collective bargaining agreement during that period, based on draft position, so teams are not subjected to a bidding war over a top player, and have the exclusive rights to pick up that contract after the expiration of the first. If they pass and a player signs elsewhere to become an All Star, that is on the team's management, not the system.

[danky1313]

That isn't going to happen, as European teams have caps on non-citizens per team. There is little chance that European teams are going to recklessly spend precious roster slots on players that have not even faced a day of college level competition, unless these are can't miss prospects. Even then, I'd venture a guess that many of those kids will still opt for 2 years of college rather than taking risks with European teams that have long histories of not paying their players. Sure, a few may take that route, but it would not be a widespread mass exodus of HS talent like some suggest. I would note that several of the high profile college players to depart early for Europe had dual citizenship, and some have had a hard time finding their way to the NBA after doing so.

I don't think US players will go to Europe either but not because of teams not paying their players or restrictions in the Euro leagues.

I just don't see many 17-18-19 year old American kids wanting to go an Ocean away from their friends and families to a foreign land with a language and culture barrier to avoid college and make money right away.

It may sound like an awesome idea to us now to get to go live in Europe as a young man and have an influx of cash but when it comes to athletes a lot of which come from
inner cities or underprivileged backgrounds that's a BIG jump to make IMHO and I just don't see it happening. Sure a handful will do it but not enough to have any impact.