The Voter Fraud That ‘Never Happens’ Keeps Coming Back

[mocgator]

Nothing to see here... move along...

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/340174/voter-fraud-never-happens-keeps-coming-back-john-fund

Critics of voter ID and other laws cracking down on voter fraud claim they’re unnecessary because fraud is nonexistent. For instance, Brennan Center attorneys Michael Waldman and Justin Levitt claimed last year: “A person casting two votes risks jail time and a fine for minimal gain. Proven voter fraud, statistically, happens about as often as death by lightning strike.”

Well, lightning is suddenly all over Cincinnati, Ohio. The Hamilton County Board of Elections is investigating 19 possible cases of alleged voter fraud that occurred when Ohio was a focal point of the 2012 presidential election. A total of 19 voters and nine witnesses are part of the probe.

Democrat Melowese Richardson has been an official poll worker for the last quarter century and registered thousands of people to vote last year. She candidly admitted to Cincinnati’s Channel 9 this week that she voted twice in the last election.

[Matthanuf06]

We do need to button up the process to have eliminate fraud, but we also need to ramp up the penalties dramatically for fraud.

[rivergator]

Moc, want to explain how voter ID would have prevented that?

[VAg8r1]

Damn, massive fraud! 19 possible cases of voter fraud out of 421,997 ballots cast in Hamilton County in the November 2012 election.
Hamilton County election results can be download from here (http://boe.hamilton-co.org/elections/election-results.aspx)

[gator996]

Nothing to see here... move along...

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/340174/voter-fraud-never-happens-keeps-coming-back-john-fund

Critics of voter ID and other laws cracking down on voter fraud claim they’re unnecessary because fraud is nonexistent. For instance, Brennan Center attorneys Michael Waldman and Justin Levitt claimed last year: “A person casting two votes risks jail time and a fine for minimal gain. Proven voter fraud, statistically, happens about as often as death by lightning strike.”

Well, lightning is suddenly all over Cincinnati, Ohio. The Hamilton County Board of Elections is investigating 19 possible cases of alleged voter fraud that occurred when Ohio was a focal point of the 2012 presidential election. A total of 19 voters and nine witnesses are part of the probe.

Democrat Melowese Richardson has been an official poll worker for the last quarter century and registered thousands of people to vote last year. She candidly admitted to Cincinnati’s Channel 9 this week that she voted twice in the last election.



So we can count on you to support the POTUS who mentioned on election night that we need to fix voting problems that have people waiting 6-8 hrs to vote...right?

:yes:

[gatorman_07732]

So we can count on you to support the POTUS who mentioned on election night that we need to fix voting problems that have people waiting 6-8 hrs to vote...right?

:yes:

That is ridiculous if true. I never had to wait beyond 2 minutes to vote in my life

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

I think most of the fraud happens at two points; voter registration and absentee balloting.

I think some kind of enhanced ID requirements for those two activities might be very helpful.

[rivergator]

Moc's original post fails on so many levels:
1. No one said that voter fraud never happens. That's something conservatives keep coming up with themselves. "Wait, I thought ...." What we've said is that it's far from widespread.
2. Obviously, Moc passed on explaining how voter ID would have prevented it. Probably because it wouldn't have.
3. Most voting fraud seems to involve absentee ballots, but Republicans have not only not targeted them in this supposed crackdown on fraud, they've actually gone out of the way to make it easier to vote absentee. Maybe that's because Republicans tend to vote more absentee. Meanwhile, Democrats tend to vote early more than Republicans, and we've seen the GOP attempt to restrict that.

Voter fraud crackdown ... you bet.

[HALLGATOR]

That is ridiculous if true. I never had to wait beyond 2 minutes to vote in my life

It is true. They showed lines in Florida in which people had been waiting for hours to vote. This is bad for all parties.

[wgbgator]

So what we have here is a case of the existing laws being sufficient to deal with incidental, low level fraud?

[gatorman_07732]

It is true. They showed lines in Florida in which people had been waiting for hours to vote. This is bad for all parties.

Sure it is, at some point there will be people that get tired and just walk away.

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

3. Most voting fraud seems to involve absentee ballots....

That and voter registration.

[gatorpa]

It is true. They showed lines in Florida in which people had been waiting for hours to vote. This is bad for all parties.

We are spoiled in this country, we don't want to wait for anything. The crime of waiting to vote....UGH.

Perhaps we need to send people to every citizen's house, it's a pain to get off the couch I might miss something good on the Springer show.

[fredsanford]

Just wait. This story will end up having the same veracity as the "800 dead people voted in South Carolina" one.

[rivergator]

Just wait. This story will end up having the same veracity as the "800 dead people voted in South Carolina" one.

The dead voters in South Carolina obviously fell through, no matter how many times our resident conservatives here claimed it hard truth.
In this case, you've got a woman admitting it. I imagine it's very true.

[fredsanford]

The dead voters in South Carolina obviously fell through, no matter how many times our resident conservatives here claimed it hard truth.
In this case, you've got a woman admitting it. I imagine it's very true.

For herself, sure. The rest? Who knows.

What I do know is that people who consistently rely on crap sources of information that are perpetually proven wrong really make you wonder.

[rivergator]

For herself, sure. The rest? Who knows.

What I do know is that people who consistently rely on crap sources of information that are perpetually proven wrong really make you wonder.

Keep in mind, that even if all 19 are true, that comes to four-thousandths of a percent. But look at how bogus the piece is. Starts off saying that some people claim voter fraud is nonexistent. Then to prove it, he quotes someone saying it's really rare, not that it never happens.
I assume he's counting on his readers not noticing the difference.

[JerseyGator01]

Given the incompetence of the system, a 12-year-old could commit massive voter fraud in a state without voter ID laws and be virtually assured that he wouldn't get caught given the amateurs who are supposedly watchdogs for the system.

When absolutely NO ONE at polling place even has a clue as to what is a hint of voter fraud, they odds of someone being caught are nil. It doesn't hurt either that the average volunteer is about 90 years old with 20/200 vision.

CORRUPTION RULES!!!!!

[mdgator05]

That is ridiculous if true. I never had to wait beyond 2 minutes to vote in my life

A pretty good summary of the issue:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/05/us/politics/waiting-times-to-vote-at-polls-draw-scrutiny.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&

A Massachusetts Institute of Technology analysis determined that blacks and Hispanics waited nearly twice as long in line to vote on average than whites. Florida had the nation’s longest lines, at 45 minutes, followed by the District of Columbia, Maryland, South Carolina and Virginia, according to Charles Stewart III, the political science professor who conducted the analysis.

A separate analysis, by an Ohio State University professor and The Orlando Sentinel, concluded that more than 200,000 voters in Florida “gave up in frustration” without voting.

“When I got there, the line was around the building,” said Jonathan Piccolo, 33, who said he had waited nearly eight hours to cast a ballot in Miami-Dade County the Monday before Election Day.

On an anecdotal level, I know Virginia had to delay their reporting by hours this year because of lines in some of the DC suburbs and the Virginia Beach area, both in heavily minority areas.

[gatorman_07732]

Florida had the nation’s longest lines, at 45 minutes

That is a heck of big difference from 996's claim

[mdgator05]

That is a heck of big difference from 996's claim

That is an average. So if four polling places have a 5 minute line, and 1 has a 3 1/2 hour wait, that would result in the average of 45 minutes.

The issue is that districts where suburban Republicans are voting have been the 5 minute line districts (as you stated, you have never had to wait long), while the more urban and minority-heavy districts seem to resemble the precinct of the guy in the article who had to wait 8 hours in Miami-Dade.

996 never said every person on average had to wait 6-8 hours, just that some did. And the group that does seems to be more Democratic, minority, urban, and poorer than the group that gets to vote much quicker.

[gatorpa]

A pretty good summary of the issue:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/05/us/politics/waiting-times-to-vote-at-polls-draw-scrutiny.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&



On an anecdotal level, I know Virginia had to delay their reporting by hours this year because of lines in some of the DC suburbs and the Virginia Beach area, both in heavily minority areas.

Why do you think this is the case?

Are the minority areas less staffed on election day?
Do a higher % of minorities vote thus pushing up wait times?
Do minorites take longer to vote thus backing up the lines?

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

No, every year Republicans make sure minority voters have less and less places to vote thus making lines longer.

My goodness. Are there no Democrats elected as supervisors of elections?

[gatorpa]

No, every year Republicans make sure minority voters have less and less places to vote thus making lines longer.

So the Pubs are in charge deciding how many polling places? Throught the country? Do they write the law to say "only x polling places in the getto"?
How do they accomplish this?

I thought polling places were decided on a local level, by the supervisor of elections. Is this not correct?

I might be wrong but I thought the big issue in S Fla with the ballots a few years ago was in a democratically controlled district. I guess Pubs only have control when it is percieved that minorites have been infringed upon.

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

I guess Pubs only have control when it is percieved that minorites have been infringed upon.

He was just race baiting.

[gatorpa]

He was just race baiting.

It's just amazing all the percieved hardships to vote in this country, when many people across the world would wait for days just to have the chance. We are spoiled.

[mdgator05]

Why do you think this is the case?

Are the minority areas less staffed on election day?
Do a higher % of minorities vote thus pushing up wait times?
Do minorites take longer to vote thus backing up the lines?

I know in some areas it is because of the use of the prior election (2010 for 2012, 2006 for 2008, etc.) to allocate voting machines in Presidential years (which is when there are shortages). Minority communities and Democratic communities in general have higher variability in the likelihood to vote in between off-year elections and Presidential elections.

[gatorman_07732]

That is an average. So if four polling places have a 5 minute line, and 1 has a 3 1/2 hour wait, that would result in the average of 45 minutes.

The issue is that districts where suburban Republicans are voting have been the 5 minute line districts (as you stated, you have never had to wait long), while the more urban and minority-heavy districts seem to resemble the precinct of the guy in the article who had to wait 8 hours in Miami-Dade.

996 never said every person on average had to wait 6-8 hours, just that some did. And the group that does seems to be more Democratic, minority, urban, and poorer than the group that gets to vote much quicker.

Why not give proof that people stand in line for 6-8 hours to vote? He went way out on the fringe with his post. The study said the longest lines were at 45 minutes and you want me to believe what 996 is selling? Horse manure

[pecks]

Obama won every state that has no voter ID law. Some areas in Pa. and Ohio he won with more than 100% turnout, and his opponent got no (0) votes. Anyone who doubts there was no voter fraud is either ignorant or have their heads in the sand!

[rivergator]

Obama won every state that has no voter ID law. Some areas in Pa. and Ohio he won with more than 100% turnout, and his opponent got no (0) votes. Anyone who doubts there was no voter fraud is either ignorant or have their heads in the sand!

Simply false.

[JerseyGator01]

Voter fraud: So easy; a caveman could do it in blue states.

[DaveFla]

It is true. They showed lines in Florida in which people had been waiting for hours to vote. This is bad for all parties.

Teach these people to study the ballot BEFORE they get to the voting booth would alleviate much of this...

FWIW, the longest I have EVER waited in line to vote was this past November, and at that it took 20 minutes to reach the booth, and less than a minute to vote.

I'd they're waiting in line for more than 30 minutes, then it's their own damn fault. Theirs and those in the precinct in which they live. Can't legislate an end to stupidity no matter how hard you try.

[DaveFla]

No, every year Republicans make sure minority voters have less and less places to vote thus making lines longer.

BULLSH!t...

[rivergator]

Teach these people to study the ballot BEFORE they get to the voting booth would alleviate much of this...

FWIW, the longest I have EVER waited in line to vote was this past November, and at that it took 20 minutes to reach the booth, and less than a minute to vote.

I'd they're waiting in line for more than 30 minutes, then it's their own damn fault. Theirs and those in the precinct in which they live. Can't legislate an end to stupidity no matter how hard you try.

How is the fault of each of these voters?

By 9 p.m., about 150 people still remained at the Lake Nona YMCA precinct. A poll worker said the wait would be at least 90 minutes and possibly as much as two hours.

The line included people sitting in lawn chairs, pushing strollers, a couple in wheelchairs and a member of the Air Force in uniform. Overhead, a news helicopter circled.

Gabriel Boy, 28, a retail manager, said he arrived at 6:30 p.m. but was planning to wait it out, even though dozens of people were ahead of him in the queue.

Asked why, he said, "To have your voice heard.''

"It's not bad,'' he said. "You get to meet your neighbors.''

Robert Frasca, 34, said he went to his precinct on the South Econlockhatchee Trail in east Orange County at about 3:20 p.m. and was told that the average wait time was about five hours.

link (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-11-06/news/os-election-day-today-20121106_1_mitt-romney-electoral-votes-polls-show)

[DaveFla]

How is the fault of each of these voters?



link (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-11-06/news/os-election-day-today-20121106_1_mitt-romney-electoral-votes-polls-show)

Really river? You need to have what I said clarified?

So, which part of "study the ballot before you go to vote" are you having difficulty understanding?

[rivergator]

Really river? You need to have what I said clarified?

So, which part of "study the ballot before you go to vote" are you having difficulty understanding?

So, from that story, Fresca shows up and is told it's a five hour wait. You figure that if only he'd studied the ballot better, the wait wouldn't have been so long?
How is that his fault?

[DaveFla]

So, from that story, Fresca shows up and is told it's a five hour wait. You figure that if only he'd studied the ballot better, the wait wouldn't have been so long?
How is that his fault?

He, and the rest of the voters ahead of him... Yes.

Again, river. That was made pretty clear in my first post....

[DaveFla]

Of course, if they did study their ballots before hand, and spent only an average of :30 seconds in the booth voting, then they wouldn't have these sensational claims about minority voter suppression that the media can run with.

I'd like to see a study, by precinct, of the average time each voter actually spends in the voting booth casting their ballot.

[Matthanuf06]

How is the fault of each of these voters?

link (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-11-06/news/os-election-day-today-20121106_1_mitt-romney-electoral-votes-polls-show)

150 people for over 2 hours? If they had 10 booths you are talking like 10 minutes per voter in a booth. That is nuts.

[DaveFla]

150 people for over 2 hours? If they had 10 booths you are talking like 10 minutes per voter in a booth. That is nuts.

Yes it is... But remember... It's all the Republicans' fault...

[gatorman_07732]

150 people for over 2 hours? If they had 10 booths you are talking like 10 minutes per voter in a booth. That is nuts.

Well according to that study by MIT it looks like there are a lot of false stories being peddled around.

[fredsanford]

Florida had an idiotically long ballot due to their legislature trying to get things through they couldn't pass--including overthrowing the largely Dem appointed state Supreme Court.

[mdgator05]

Well according to that study by MIT it looks like there are a lot of false stories being peddled around.

You seriously don't understand the concept of an average?

The highest full state AVERAGE was 45 minutes. With an average, it means that some were lower and some were higher. There were countless stories of ridiculously long lines. I remember on election night watching all of these false stories standing in line.

Will Fox News suffice?

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/11/06/virginia-reports-long-lines-after-polls-close-1313247840/

Those in line when the polls closed at 7 p.m. are allowed to vote. Election officials say it could take until 10 p.m. or later for the last voters in the state to cast ballots.

Virginia State Board of Elections Secretary Donald Palmer said there were long lines in Richmond, Arlington, Virginia Beach, Roanoke and Hampton, along with Fairfax County.

"It could go as late as 11 p.m. with the last of the localities where we receive results because some will go at least two or three hours past the deadline, which was seven, to get their results to the locality and then uploaded to our statewide database," Palmer said.

How about the Miami Herald?

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/11/06/3084088/polls-open-in-south-florida.html

Miami-Dade will not report full election results until Wednesday, election supervisors said Tuesday night, as dozens of polls remained open four hours after closing time.

Lines were so long in some polling places, that the last voter did not leave the West Kendall Regional Libary until a few minutes after 1 A.M.

Miami-Dade will not report full election results until Wednesday, election supervisors said Tuesday night, as dozens of polls remained open four hours after closing time.

Lines were so long in some polling places, that the last voter did not leave the West Kendall Regional Libary until a few minutes after 1 A.M.

[vertigo0923]

There is no real voter fraud, (except where serous attempts by republican operatives were discovered and stopped) the persecution of ACORN was ridiculous even by republican standards, Mickey Mouse was never gonna be cable to vote, you guys know all of this deep down, just as Donald trump knows Obama was born on the u.s.a.
Sheesh.

[vertigo0923]

One should NEVER have to stand in line 7 or more hrs to vote. Rick Scott knows what he did and why he did it and he FAILED

[DaveFla]

Again, if you stand in line for more than about 45 minutes, you have no one to blame but the morons you have voting in your own precinct.

[rivergator]

Again, if you stand in line for more than about 45 minutes, you have no one to blame but the morons you have voting in your own precinct.

that's a bit different than it's your own fault. glad to see changed that.

[DaveFla]

that's a bit different than it's your own fault. glad to see changed that.

I didn't. Go look at my original post.

[DaveFla]

You are, by default, one of the morons in your own precinct...

[gatorman_07732]

You seriously don't understand the concept of an average?

The highest full state AVERAGE was 45 minutes. With an average, it means that some were lower and some were higher. There were countless stories of ridiculously long lines. I remember on election night watching all of these false stories standing in line.

Will Fox News suffice?

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/11/06/virginia-reports-long-lines-after-polls-close-1313247840/



How about the Miami Herald?

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/11/06/3084088/polls-open-in-south-florida.html

Sorry but that is not what the report you provided from MIT says. As usual you are making things up. That does not say Florida had the nation's longest lines at 4 minutes average. Even if that was an average, there aren't 6 or 7 hour waits as 996 claims.

A Massachusetts Institute of Technology analysis determined that blacks and Hispanics waited nearly twice as long in line to vote on average than whites. Florida had the nation’s longest lines, at 45 minutes, followed by the District of Columbia, Maryland, South Carolina and Virginia, according to Charles Stewart III, the political science professor who conducted the analysis.

[rivergator]

I'm curious if any of our resident conservatives will actually address the absurdity of the initial post.

[vertigo0923]

I'm curious if any of our resident conservatives will actually address the absurdity of the initial post.

Wouldn't hold my breath ;)

[rivergator]

Wouldn't hold my breath ;)

No, I wouldn't think so. From what I've seen, the basic problem they have is an inability to understand it.

[mdgator05]

Sorry but that is not what the report you provided from MIT says. As usual you are making things up. That does not say Florida had the nation's longest lines at 4 minutes average. Even if that was an average, there aren't 6 or 7 hour waits as 996 claims.

It is average. Charles Stewart III (MIT Prof.) is the analyst for Pew Charitable Trust's Elections Performance Index (which is where he is getting this data). They haven't updated their data to include 2012 yet (he will likely have the data for a bit before they do so), but here is their report on 2008.

http://www.pewstates.org/uploadedFiles/PCS_Assets/2013/Pew_Elections_Performanc_Index_brief.pdf

Their description of the "voting wait time" variable:

Voting Wait Time: How long, on average, did voters wait to cast their ballots?

And as for 6 hour wait, I provided you a link of a description of a polling location in Florida open past 1 AM. That is 6 hours after polls closed at 7 PM, and you can't join the line after polls close. So clearly, some people did wait more than 6 hours. From the Miami Herald again:

Lines were so long in some polling places, that the last voter did not leave the West Kendall Regional Libary until a few minutes after 1 A.M.

[gatorman_07732]

It is average. Charles Stewart III (MIT Prof.) is the analyst for Pew Charitable Trust's Elections Performance Index (which is where he is getting this data). They haven't updated their data to include 2012 yet (he will likely have the data for a bit before they do so), but here is their report on 2008.

http://www.pewstates.org/uploadedFiles/PCS_Assets/2013/Pew_Elections_Performanc_Index_brief.pdf

Their description of the "voting wait time" variable:



And as for 6 hour wait, I provided you a link of a description of a polling location in Florida open past 1 AM. That is 6 hours after polls closed at 7 PM, and you can't join the line after polls close. So clearly, some people did wait more than 6 hours. From the Miami Herald again:

Again, that is not what it says. Even if that is true, 996's claim of 6-7 hours waits is ludicrous. Not that I would ever expect you to call him out.

[mdgator05]

Again, that is not what it says. Even if that is true, 996's claim of 6-7 hours waits is ludicrous. Not that I would ever expect you to call him out.

The New York Times probably figured that people could figure out that they were discussing state-wide averages. Most people would probably be capable of figuring out that they weren't saying every single person in a state waited the exact same length of time, or whatever ridiculous claim you are making with it, as long as they weren't purposefully trying not to come to the obvious conclusion. They probably figure you don't need to see the word average in every sentence when it is clear that the data only contains statewide averages and that they talked about averages in the prior sentence.

So if a polling station is still open at 1 AM in a state where polls close at 7PM, as I have shown, how long did the people at the end of that line wait?

[gatorman_07732]

The New York Times probably figured that people could figure out that they were discussing state-wide averages. Most people would probably be capable of figuring out that they weren't saying every single person in a state waited the exact same length of time, or whatever ridiculous claim you are making with it, as long as they weren't purposefully trying not to come to the obvious conclusion. They probably figure you don't need to see the word average in every sentence when it is clear that the data only contains statewide averages and that they talked about averages in the prior sentence.

So if a polling station is still open at 1 AM in a state where polls close at 7PM, as I have shown, how long did the people at the end of that line wait?

Do you back 996's claim?

[g8orbill]

I'm curious if any of our resident conservatives will actually address the absurdity of the initial post.

I fail to see any absurdity

[MastaG8r]

I wonder which number is higher:

A. The number of fraudulent votes as a percentage of all ballots cast in U.S. elections.

B. The number of people killed by assault weapons as a percentage of all U.S fatalities.

No way of knowing the first number for sure but it's most likely higher than the second number.

We all have the right to bear arms. However many states have gun control laws intended to minimize abuse of that right without unreasonably infringing upon it.

We all have the right to vote. However some states have voter I.D. laws intended to minimize abuse of that right without unreasonably infringing upon it.

When someone abuses the right to bear arms by using an assault weapon to kill innocent victims, our friends on the Left say it is proof that that gun control laws need to be stricter and the right to bear arms needs to be regulated more.

But when someone abuses the right to vote by casting a fraudulent ballot, our friends on the Left say it does not prove that voter I.D. laws are warranted and continue insisting that the right to vote needs to be regulated less.

[rivergator]

I fail to see any absurdity

It's already been pointed out, but I'll be happy to repeat:
1. It starts off claiming that some people say voter fraud never happens. Of course, that's not what anyone claims. But plenty of us say it's very rare. Meanwhile, the writer tries to justify his claim by pointing out a study which concluded that voter fraud isn't nonexistent, but that it's very rare.
2. The OP tries to connect this case of fraud to voter ID, but obviously declined to explain how ID would have prevented it. That's probably because it wouldn't.
3. This fraud is tied to absentee voting, which is the one part of voting that Republicans haven't attempted to crack down on, even though that's where most fraud takes place. Actually, in Ohio, Republicans sent out absentee ballots to every voter, whether they asked for one or not.
Republicans are more likely to vote absentee. Democrats more likely to vote early. Fraud is more likely to occur in absentee voting. So Republicans cracked down on early voting. Because, you know, they're really concerned about voter fraud.

[mdgator05]

Do you back 996's claim?

Yes as the evidence shows it to be true. If there were voters in line at 1 AM in Florida, as reported at the time by major media outlets and confirmed by the people in the lines, then they were on line for at least 6 hours, as you can't join a line after polls close at 7 PM. It is simple subtraction.

[JerseyGator01]

This thread is stupid. It's the very nature of fraud to not know where most of it is, but only where most of it is found. Anyone active in campaigns as a profession could perform voter fraud on a massive scale rather easily in a state without voter ID laws ... as I've posted before. It may only be one crack in the system, but it has the potential to be a gigantic crack if taken advantage of ...

Voter fraud is not noticed more because most elections are legally rigged by gerrymandering, campaign bribery (er ... finance) and the like. Since so few incumbents in Lawyerland lose these days, there is no need for fraud. The Prez election is one of a very few elections that has been close in recent years. Most of the liberal lawyers in Congress habitually win by 20 points.

Al Franken anyone? Read the book on his fraudulent election.

CORRUPTION RULES!!!!!

[gatorman_07732]

Yes as the evidence shows it to be true. If there were voters in line at 1 AM in Florida, as reported at the time by major media outlets and confirmed by the people in the lines, then they were on line for at least 6 hours, as you can't join a line after polls close at 7 PM. It is simple subtraction.

Well I'll say this, I really forgot that Florida never got the voting thing down so I suppose it could be true. Those counties in south Florida need to get their act together and don't they have early voting down there?

[The_Graygator]

Nothing to see here... move along...

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/340174/voter-fraud-never-happens-keeps-coming-back-john-fund

Critics of voter ID and other laws cracking down on voter fraud claim they’re unnecessary because fraud is nonexistent. For instance, Brennan Center attorneys Michael Waldman and Justin Levitt claimed last year: “A person casting two votes risks jail time and a fine for minimal gain. Proven voter fraud, statistically, happens about as often as death by lightning strike.”

Well, lightning is suddenly all over Cincinnati, Ohio. The Hamilton County Board of Elections is investigating 19 possible cases of alleged voter fraud that occurred when Ohio was a focal point of the 2012 presidential election. A total of 19 voters and nine witnesses are part of the probe.

Democrat Melowese Richardson has been an official poll worker for the last quarter century and registered thousands of people to vote last year. She candidly admitted to Cincinnati’s Channel 9 this week that she voted twice in the last election.


It's pretty obvious that Obama and his cronies rigged the elections in Ohio because it was the #1 most important swing state and he knew winning Ohio would win the election for him. The odds that he won 99% of the vote in so many of those districts was like being struck by lightening twice in the same spot on the same, clear day.

i.e., it was impossible.

But hey, that's ok that he rigged the elctions (much like the Kennedys did back in the '60's). It's all about beating the Republicans, and to hell with the country. :roll:

[fredsanford]

More baseless accusations based on fantasies from the fact-free conserva-bubble.

Romney! Landslide! Book it!

[neisgator]

No, every year Republicans make sure minority voters have less and less places to vote thus making lines longer.

Full of Crap, party of one, your table is now available .

[Gatorrick22]

So we can count on you to support the POTUS who mentioned on election night that we need to fix voting problems that have people waiting 6-8 hrs to vote...right?

:yes:

Both partys suffer equally when this happens.

[MastaG8r]

Of course no one on the Left says voter fraud never happens.

First of all, because they know damn well it happens and that they are just as likely as the Republicans - if not more so - to benefit when it does.

But second of all and more importantly, they don't say voter fraud never happens because then they'd be proven wrong every time somebody brings up yet another example of it. Instead they just say, "Well we never said it never happens. But it's rare so nobody shouldn't worry about it." Meanwhile they will say this no matter how many times it happens and will dismiss every example as an isolated one.

And when somebody brings up an example of voter fraud that may not have been preventable through voter ID laws anyway, they say, "So what's your point? What does that have to do with voter ID laws?" They don't accept the argument that evidence of voter fraud in any form shows that we should take steps to minimize it in every form.

However as was noted earlier without comment from our friends on the Left, they have a different approach when a mass shooting occurs. They never dismiss that as an isolated example like they do with every occurrence of voter fraud. Instead they rally around it as proof of why we need stricter gun control laws.

And if the particular shooting in question might not have been prevented by tougher laws anyway? Doesn't matter. Evidence of gun violence in any form shows that we should take steps to minimize it in every form.

[fredsanford]

Ugh with the bloviating. Some people love the sound of their own "voice" a bit much.

Anyhow, the right knows that there is no such thing as widespread, systemic voter fraud. They keep pushing it as an issue because it helps to delegitimize the opposition.

Unfortunately for them, the last election showed that the country has shifted leftward a bit and it isn't buying what the GOP is selling. It's going to take a new product to win back the country, not new tactics or whining.

[OaktownGator]

It's pretty obvious that Obama and his cronies rigged the elections in Ohio because it was the #1 most important swing state and he knew winning Ohio would win the election for him. The odds that he won 99% of the vote in so many of those districts was like being struck by lightening twice in the same spot on the same, clear day.

i.e., it was impossible.

But hey, that's ok that he rigged the elctions (much like the Kennedys did back in the '60's). It's all about beating the Republicans, and to hell with the country. :roll:
As Joseph Stalin once noted, "it's not who votes that counts, it's who counts the votes."

Look at the party affiliation of a state's Secretary of State, and you know which direction any significant level of election fraud is going.

That's who drives voter roll purges (or not), and staffing and facilities provisions for polling places, and that's who counts the votes... he/she can leverage access to voting machines and tabulation software to tamper with vote collection and tabulation, as has been reported in elections in several states since 2000, when the President of Diebold (voting machines) famously guaranteed he'd deliver GW to the White House.

Local ground efforts to get out the vote, no doubt do result in some ineligible voters getting access to vote. And in close elections could be enough to swing an otherwise honestly run election. But individual voter fraud cannot overcome systemic top down election fraud... that's the losing party just spitting into the wind.

All of it needs to be cleaned up, from the top down if we want election results we can trust.

Voter IDs... sure, why not? But it's just the tip of the iceberg. Won't stop massive election frauds.

[MastaG8r]

Ugh with the bloviating. Some people love the sound of their own "voice" a bit much.

Anyhow, the right knows that there is no such thing as widespread, systemic voter fraud. They keep pushing it as an issue because it helps to delegitimize the opposition.

Unfortunately for them, the last election showed that the country has shifted leftward a bit and it isn't buying what the GOP is selling. It's going to take a new product to win back the country, not new tactics or whining.Isn't it cute how he keeps moving the goalposts? "Show us the voter fraud!" Uhh...okay, here's some. "Oh. Okay well, umm...show us the widespread, systemic voter fraud!" :roll:

If that's the standard then show us the widespread, systemic misuse of assault weapons and then we can talk about banning them.

[rivergator]

Of course no one on the Left says voter fraud never happens.



So why don't you guys quit claiming that's what 'the left' says?

First of all, because they know damn well it happens and that they are just as likely as the Republicans - if not more so - to benefit when it does.

But second of all and more importantly, they don't say voter fraud never happens because then they'd be proven wrong every time somebody brings up yet another example of it. Instead they just say, "Well we never said it never happens. But it's rare so nobody shouldn't worry about it." Meanwhile they will say this no matter how many times it happens and will dismiss every example as an isolated one.

And when somebody brings up an example of voter fraud that may not have been preventable through voter ID laws anyway, they say, "So what's your point? What does that have to do with voter ID laws?" They don't accept the argument that evidence of voter fraud in any form shows that we should take steps to minimize it in every form.

However as was noted earlier without comment from our friends on the Left, they have a different approach when a mass shooting occurs. They never dismiss that as an isolated example like they do with every occurrence of voter fraud. Instead they rally around it as proof of why we need stricter gun control laws.

And if the particular shooting in question might not have been prevented by tougher laws anyway? Doesn't matter. Evidence of gun violence in any form shows that we should take steps to minimize it in every form.

Using that case as an example of why we need voter ID laws is the same as someone posting a story about someone being stabbed to death and saying "And, yet, the right is opposed to banning assault weapons!"
Just kind of pointless and extremely lame.

[MastaG8r]

So why don't you guys quit claiming that's what 'the left' says?Funny. In this thread the comments of one poster, moc, are attributed to "you guys."

Meanwhile over in this thread (http://www.gatorcountry.com/swampgas/showthread.php?t=256782) moc is accused of broad brushing others.

Given how much you like to broad brush others ....

:roll:

[rivergator]

Funny. In this thread the comments of one poster, moc, are attributed to "you guys."


:roll:

Well, that was the title of the thread, title of the piece in National Review and a common claim among conservatives here.

Meanwhile over in this thread (http://www.gatorcountry.com/swampgas/showthread.php?t=256782) moc is accused of broad brushing others.




and he does. what's your question?

[MastaG8r]

and he does. what's your question?and so do you. It wasn't a question, it was an observation.

[g8orbill]

the left will never admit to this stuff because they know they are the ones most benefiting from it

[rivergator]

the left will never admit to this stuff because they know they are the ones most benefiting from it

what isn't being admitted to?

No matter how many times Republicans keep coming up with huge cases of voter fraud, the cases always fall into dust. Hundreds of dead voters in South Carolina!!!! Nope.
Thousands of felons in Minnesota!!!! Nope.

This current case involves potentially 19 cases in Hamilton County, Ohio. If all 19 turn out to be fraud, it'd be .0034 percent of the voters in the county.

[fredsanford]

the left will never admit to this stuff because they know they are the ones most benefiting from it

Ironic, because most of the prosecutions are of pubs.

[gator996]

Well I'll say this, I really forgot that Florida never got the voting thing down so I suppose it could be true. Those counties in south Florida need to get their act together and don't they have early voting down there?


Need proof of a 6 hour voter?

Or, Should I say a 9 hour voter since 6 were dedicated to early voting and 3 more on election day...

http://abcnews.go.com/ABC_Univision/early-florida-voters-wait-long-hours-line-vote/story?id=17630774

"Elizabeth Arteaga, a 60-year-old woman born in Peru, tried to vote last weekend. She arrived to the West Kendall Regional Library in North Miami at 9:00 a.m. and waited for a total of six hours to cast her vote. "My husband had to go to work so we couldn't stay in line," said Arteaga. "Handicapped people and elderly were waiting under the sun. They were treated like animals."

Finally yesterday she voted at the same polling place, after waiting another three hours. Only one of three voting machines was working, and the line was as big as it was the day before, says Ms Arteaga.

With one day left for early voters in Florida, long lines that extend for blocks in some parts of Miami are affecting people's ability to vote. Several voters that Univision spoke to in and around Miami said they waited from three to six hours in line. Some, like Ms Arteaga, decided to leave because they had to get to work.

Long lines like at this Miami polling place,...

Long lines like at this Miami polling place, have turned some early voters away.One reason for the delay is the ballot, which is more than six pages long. Voters are being asked not only to elect a new president but also to analyze 11 state amendments as well as several county questions. Some of the issues voters are being asked to weigh-in are: funding for abortions and religious freedom, as well as property tax issues affecting veterans and their spouses. This is the longest ballot in Miami-Dade history.

Despite requests from Democrats and Republicans to extend early voting one more day to Sunday, Governor Rick Scott stated he will not extend past Saturday."


The issue of how the voting infrastructure is deployed is a complex one.

Florida law restricts polling places to governent buildings...places like California do not restrict themselves in a similar manner.

Gov. Scott cut early voting days...

http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/02/04/3217215/gov-rick-scotts-elections-adviser.html

Testifying before a House committee, Secretary of State Ken Detzner largely echoed the views of county election supervisors. They want to offer from eight to 14 days of early voting, including on the Sunday before Election Day, and at more sites, including courthouses and civic centers.

“The bottom line is, voter confidence must be restored,’’ Detzner said. “Supervisors of elections and county commissions must take it upon themselves to oversee elections through responsible leadership and administration.”

For years, elections officials and Democratic legislators have tried to increase the sites used for early voting.

“By having sites available at more locations, we can take advantage of better parking, bigger buildings and convenient locations,” said Seminole County Supervisor of Elections Mike Ertel.


The Legislature’s Republican majority in 2011 voted to reduce early voting from 14 days to eight, prompting complaints of voter suppression from Democrats and allied groups. But most counties offered 12 days of early voting for 12 hours each day, and President Barack Obama, a Democrat, won Florida for a second time.



Anything else you care to be wrong about when it comes to election process?

:laugh:

[BobK89]

How is it that Pennsylvania, a state with roughly the same population as Florida, which had no early voting was able to get everyone who wanted to vote, vote. And, counted all the ballots before the end of the night?

What the hell is wrong with the S o E's in the Florida counties??

Sent from my iPhone using GatorCountry

[gator996]

How is it that Pennsylvania, a state with roughly the same population as Florida, which had no early voting was able to get everyone who wanted to vote, vote. And, counted all the ballots before the end of the night?

What the hell is wrong with the S o E's in the Florida counties??

Sent from my iPhone using GatorCountry


Outside of the articles linked to that explain this...

Back in November I suggested those really concerned with the election process watch this from UP w/ Chris Hayes...If you really care you should watch each segment he devoted to the problem

One of the most interesting things is the fact that we as a nation acknowledged this after the Bush "Hanging Chad" problems and we allocated money to respond....

...and its been a non-effort since day 1


These are more than worth watching...


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46979738/ns/msnbc-up_with_chris_hayes/#49770905

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46979738/ns/msnbc-up_with_chris_hayes/#49770937

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46979738/ns/msnbc-up_with_chris_hayes/#49771022

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46979738/ns/msnbc-up_with_chris_hayes/#49771027




But this requires less effort since youtube is direct in this forum

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k93nb2CMEV4

[rivergator]

the wait wasn't unique to Florida:

Residents interviewed by WTOP waited anywhere from 30 minutes to four hours to cast their ballots. Despite the lines, most people agreed it was worth the delay.

Virginia

Hours after polls closed, some voters in the Old Dominion stayed in line waiting to cast their ballots. Some had already been waiting up to four hours, reported WTOP's Kathy Stewart.

link (http://www.wtop.com/41/3108307/Long-lines-scattered-glitches-in-Md-Va-DC-on-Election-Day)

[gatorman_07732]

Need proof of a 6 hour voter?

Or, Should I say a 9 hour voter since 6 were dedicated to early voting and 3 more on election day...

http://abcnews.go.com/ABC_Univision/early-florida-voters-wait-long-hours-line-vote/story?id=17630774

"Elizabeth Arteaga, a 60-year-old woman born in Peru, tried to vote last weekend. She arrived to the West Kendall Regional Library in North Miami at 9:00 a.m. and waited for a total of six hours to cast her vote. "My husband had to go to work so we couldn't stay in line," said Arteaga. "Handicapped people and elderly were waiting under the sun. They were treated like animals."

Finally yesterday she voted at the same polling place, after waiting another three hours. Only one of three voting machines was working, and the line was as big as it was the day before, says Ms Arteaga.

With one day left for early voters in Florida, long lines that extend for blocks in some parts of Miami are affecting people's ability to vote. Several voters that Univision spoke to in and around Miami said they waited from three to six hours in line. Some, like Ms Arteaga, decided to leave because they had to get to work.

Long lines like at this Miami polling place,...

Long lines like at this Miami polling place, have turned some early voters away.One reason for the delay is the ballot, which is more than six pages long. Voters are being asked not only to elect a new president but also to analyze 11 state amendments as well as several county questions. Some of the issues voters are being asked to weigh-in are: funding for abortions and religious freedom, as well as property tax issues affecting veterans and their spouses. This is the longest ballot in Miami-Dade history.

Despite requests from Democrats and Republicans to extend early voting one more day to Sunday, Governor Rick Scott stated he will not extend past Saturday."


The issue of how the voting infrastructure is deployed is a complex one.

Florida law restricts polling places to governent buildings...places like California do not restrict themselves in a similar manner.

Gov. Scott cut early voting days...

http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/02/04/3217215/gov-rick-scotts-elections-adviser.html

Testifying before a House committee, Secretary of State Ken Detzner largely echoed the views of county election supervisors. They want to offer from eight to 14 days of early voting, including on the Sunday before Election Day, and at more sites, including courthouses and civic centers.

“The bottom line is, voter confidence must be restored,’’ Detzner said. “Supervisors of elections and county commissions must take it upon themselves to oversee elections through responsible leadership and administration.”

For years, elections officials and Democratic legislators have tried to increase the sites used for early voting.

“By having sites available at more locations, we can take advantage of better parking, bigger buildings and convenient locations,” said Seminole County Supervisor of Elections Mike Ertel.


The Legislature’s Republican majority in 2011 voted to reduce early voting from 14 days to eight, prompting complaints of voter suppression from Democrats and allied groups. But most counties offered 12 days of early voting for 12 hours each day, and President Barack Obama, a Democrat, won Florida for a second time.



Anything else you care to be wrong about when it comes to election process?

:laugh:

If you took the time to read through the posts I admitted to being wrong.

[gator996]

That's cool...no problem with that...



Honestly, do yourself a favor and watch...Those Chris Hays links (the 1st 4 are some of the best TV from last year)...


...its a little to the political left overall but alot of the historical record are facts that aren't partisan (simply shows our inability to follow through "for the people") and detail the problems at length...

...detail that most Americans are unaware of.

[gatorman_07732]

That's cool...no problem with that...



Honestly, do yourself a favor and watch...Those Chris Hays links (the 1st 4 are some of the best TV from last year)...


...its a little to the political left overall but alot of the historical record are facts that aren't partisan (simply shows our inability to follow through "for the people") and detail the problems at length...

...detail that most Americans are unaware of.

Are you trying to indoctrinate me :laugh:

[gator996]

Are you trying to indoctrinate me :laugh:

Certainly not...cause those 1st 4 links are bad... :grin:


I'm going to have to find my post from November and fix those links!!!

[MastaG8r]

Certainly not...cause those 1st 4 links are bad... :grin:


I'm going to have to find my post from November and fix those links!!!While you're looking for your old posts and threads see if you can find the one you started about how cops should be profiling white guys since they are always the ones responsible for mass shootings. That might make for some entertaining reading in light of recent events.

http://static.infowars.com/2013/02/i/general/dornerpsych2.jpg

[gator996]

While you're looking for your old posts and threads see if you can find the one you started about how cops should be profiling white guys since they are always the ones responsible for mass shootings. That might make for some entertaining reading in light of recent events.

http://static.infowars.com/2013/02/i/general/dornerpsych2.jpg



Never advocated profiling...raised the question why it was so inconceivable that white males be profiled but profiling minorities was OK.

This guy isn't responsible for a mass shooting (yet) is he?


So I guess this won't be as entertaining as you would like...
:laugh:

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

An update;

Melowese Richardson is the Ohio poll worker who admitted to casting two votes in November for President Obama. Now, Ohio officials are investigating if she voted in the names of four other people as well and cast a total of six ballots in the 2012 election, according to Fox News. The investigation is part of a wider one into a number of cases of alleged voter fraud in Hamilton County, Ohio. Richardson says she filled out and submitted an absentee ballot on her granddaughter’s behalf, and her granddaughter has confirmed that claim, saying, “It wasn’t a big deal.” Furthermore:

Three other absentee ballots in the names of different people were submitted to the Board of Elections from Richardson’s address on Nov. 1. Officials say the handwriting on those ballots is similar and that they were all received together, on the same day that Richardson’s absentee ballot arrived at the office. Richardson maintains that some of the other voters live at her house.

Attempts by Fox News to reach Richardson were unsuccessful, but she claimed to the local station that the votes were “absolutely legal votes.”

Richardson is currently facing charges of voter fraud but maintains her innocence. “I can’t understand these charges against me of voter fraud,” she told Cincinnati’s Channel 9 News. “Have they never heard of . . . overlooking mailing in a ballot or registering to vote at a precinct after you’ve forgotten that you’ve mailed in a ballot or you’ve been told that the ballot may be too late?”

The local news report below includes an interview with Richardson, who is set to appear before Ohio’s Hamilton County Board of Elections on Friday, as well as footage from the testimony of five other Ohio voters accused of voting, or attempting to vote, twice. One individual revealed she was unaware that it was illegal to vote twice, while several reported confusion caused by absentee ballots.

[fredsanford]

An update;



Absentee ballot reform is absolutely needed. Any idea why GOP pols never discuss it?

I know why.

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

Absentee ballot reform is absolutely needed. Any idea why GOP pols never discuss it?

I know why.

I agree it is a problem. And why doesn't the GOP discuss it fred?

[rivergator]

I agree it is a problem. And why doesn't the GOP discuss it fred?

Republicans are in fact more likely than Democrats to vote absentee. In the 2008 general election in Florida, 47 percent of absentee voters were Republicans and 36 percent were Democrats.

link (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/07/us/politics/as-more-vote-by-mail-faulty-ballots-could-impact-elections.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0)

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

That does not answer the question I asked fred, river.

[mdgator05]

That does not answer the question I asked fred, river.

Self-interest, in that Republicans are more likely to vote absentee, doesn't answer the question?

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

Self-interest, in that Republicans are more likely to vote absentee, doesn't answer the question?

It might. But why would strengthening the absentee voting requirements keep Republicans from voting? IOW, are you and river suggesting that Republicans more likely to engage in voter fraud?

While there may be some, to my knowledge, very few Republicans have been cited for absentee voting fraud?

The point is that it is usually Republicans that want to strengthen laws to prevent voter fraud. Most are not overly concerned that voter ID laws will restrict them or anyone else on their right to vote.

[wgbgator]

Because these laws arent about preventing fraud, they're about making voting harder. The GOP doesnt want to make it harder to get and vote via absentee ballot. Who is or isnt likely to commit fraud isnt even a consideration. Less hoops to jump through means more non-fraudulent votes too.

[mdgator05]

It might. But why would strengthening the absentee voting requirements keep Republicans from voting? IOW, are you and river suggesting that Republicans more likely to engage in voter fraud?

While there may be some, to my knowledge, very few Republicans have been cited for absentee voting fraud?

The point is that it is usually Republicans that want to strengthen laws to prevent voter fraud. Most are not overly concerned that voter ID laws will restrict them or anyone else on their right to vote.

My assumption is that there is no difference between parties on a per capita basis. So if more people are voting absentee for one party than the other, any issues with that voting will lean towards that party being more likely to commit the crime.

If you have actual non-anecdotal evidence to the contrary (that somehow Democrats are more likely to commit absentee voter fraud) feel free to present it.

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

Less hoops to jump through means more non-fraudulent votes too.

Perhaps. I do not think current voter laws discourage people from voting though.

[neisgator]

Self-interest, in that Republicans are more likely to vote absentee, doesn't answer the question?

How about:
Pubs are more likely to have jobs...

While dems are being bused in to vote.

[rivergator]

Because these laws arent about preventing fraud, they're about making voting harder. The GOP doesnt want to make it harder to get and vote via absentee ballot. Who is or isnt likely to commit fraud isnt even a consideration. Less hoops to jump through means more non-fraudulent votes too.

Exactly. While voter fraud is far from widespread, the great majority of it seems to involve absentee voting. Republicans have made no apparent effort to crack down on that, perhaps because Republicans are more likely to vote absentee than Democrats.
Republicans have, however, tried to make it hard to vote early, perhaps because Democrats are more likely to vote early.
They've made it harder for college students to vote, perhaps because college students are more likely to vote Democratic.
They've pushed for voter ID laws which primarily affect poor people who are more likely to vote Democratic.
Yeah, it's about fraud ...:grin::grin::grin:

[mdgator05]

How about:
Pubs are more likely to have jobs...

While dems are being bused in to vote.

Given the age composition of voting behavior (older people voting more Republican), I doubt the difference is very significant.

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

Republicans have made no apparent effort to crack down on that, perhaps because Republicans are more likely to vote absentee than Democrats.


If absentee balloting is the major point where voter fraud occurs, then why is this a *only* Republican problem? Are Democrats not interested in legitimate voter fraud?

I do think the structure around absentee voting needs work. I think it is in the best interests of all people to make sure voter fraud does not occur at any point in the process. Another place where voter fraud seems to occur is at voter registration.

[brainstorm]

I think it is time to implant RFID chips into everyone...the mark of the beast will make things a-ok.

[rivergator]

If absentee balloting is the major point where voter fraud occurs, then why is this a *only* Republican problem? Are Democrats not interested in legitimate voter fraud?



Because they're the ones claiming this is all some huge deal that needs sweeping changes to our laws. Seriously, can you justify that list? Cracking down on college students and early voting, when there's no indication of fraud while ignoring the one place where there seems to be a problem?

[MastaG8r]

The typical contributions to voter fraud threads by our friends on the Left always make me laugh. To hear them tell it you'd think the Democratic leadership just wants to make it as easy as possible for everyone to vote, regardless of partisan benefit or advantage, but meanwhile Republicans who propose changes are only motivated by partisanship.

Give me a break.

Any proposed change - or resistance to change - to existing voting procedures is always done with the intention of benefiting whichever party is doing the proposing or resisting, respectively.

Democrats are not against voter ID requirements because it makes it harder for everyone to vote. They're against it because they're afraid it will disadvantage Democrats. And vice-versa. Spare us any high-and-mighty holier-than-thou posturing to the contrary.

[rivergator]

The typical contributions to voter fraud threads by our friends on the Left always make me laugh. To hear them tell it you'd think the Democratic leadership just wants to make it as easy as possible for everyone to vote, regardless of partisan benefit or advantage, but meanwhile Republicans who propose changes are only motivated by partisanship.

Give me a break.

Any proposed change - or resistance to change - to existing voting procedures is always done with the intention of benefiting whichever party is doing the proposing or resisting, respectively.

Democrats are not against voter ID requirements because it makes it harder for everyone to vote. They're against it because they're afraid it will disadvantage Democrats. And vice-versa. Spare us any high-and-mighty holier-than-thou posturing to the contrary.

What changes to laws have the Democrats proposed recently to make it harder for Republicans to vote?

[MastaG8r]

What changes to laws have the Democrats proposed recently to make it harder for Republicans to vote?I don't know, I haven't looked into it. What difference does it make? I said proposing or resisting. There's no legitimate non-partisan reason for Democrats to object to the perfectly reasonable requirement to present a form of picture ID when you show up to vote. When it comes to issues involving voting procedures, partisan gain is the only objective and concern of either side.

If you could somehow magically mystically receive infallible, guaranteed assurance that voter ID requirements would never, ever cost Democrats a single election, anywhere, then you'd never give the issue another thought. The question of whether it could cost the Republicans an election is of no concern to you at all. All I'm saying is debate from a position of honesty rather than pretending that Democrats care about all Americans but Republicans only care about Republicans.

[rivergator]

I don't know, I haven't looked into it. What difference does it make? I said proposing or resisting. There's no legitimate non-partisan reason for Democrats to object to the perfectly reasonable requirement to present a form of picture ID when you show up to vote. When it comes to issues involving voting procedures, partisan gain is the only objective and concern of either side.

If you could somehow magically mystically receive infallible, guaranteed assurance that voter ID requirements would never, ever cost Democrats a single election, anywhere, then you'd never give the issue another thought. The question of whether it could cost the Republicans an election is of no concern to you at all. All I'm saying is debate from a position of honesty rather than pretending that Democrats care about all Americans but Republicans only care about Republicans.

the "both side do it" argument always loses a bit of steam when you can't come up with an example of one side doing it.

[fredsanford]

the "both side do it" argument always loses a bit of steam when you can't come up with an example of one side doing it.

Or make a cogent, coherent argument instead of just bloviating.

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

Another update;

She admitted voting twice in the presidential election last November, and now, Obama supporter Melowese Richardson has been indicted for allegedly voting at least six times. She also is charged with illegal voting in 2008 and 2011.

The 58-year-old veteran Cincinnati poll worker, indicted Monday, faces eight counts of voter fraud. Two others, one of whom is a nun, have been charged separately.

Richardson had admitted on camera to a local TV station, “Yes, I voted twice,” claiming she was concerned that her vote would not count. She also said there “was no intent on my part to commit any voter fraud.”

“I’ll fight it for Mr. Obama and Mr. Obama’s right to sit as president of the United States,” she proclaimed in the interview.

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

And Two other people were charged with multiple voting alongside Richardson… one of them a nun, Sister Marguerite Kloos, who resigned as Dean of the Division of Arts and Humanities at Mount St. Joseph’s and entered a guilty plea to avoid indictment. Sister Kloos voted in the name of a nun who died before the absentee ballots went out. She took pains to forge the dead nun’s signature. An elderly man named Russell Glassop did the same thing with his late wife’s ballot. And according to the Cincinnati Enquirer, “some questions linger about 50 people who cast an absentee ballot and then voted on a provisional ballot.”

[jimgata]

There has been extensive voter fraud since the first vote. If anyone thinks not, they are forgetting who votes. MAN!

[MastaG8r]

Or make a cogent, coherent argument instead of just bloviating.In this case any lack of cogency and coherence is entirely in the eye of the beholder.

[MastaG8r]

the "both side do it" argument always loses a bit of steam when you can't come up with an example of one side doing it....and speaking of coherence or lack thereof being in the eye of the beholder, your comment betrays a lack of understanding of what I said. Or a willful misrepresentation of it.

[gatorpa]

Exactly. While voter fraud is far from widespread, the great majority of it seems to involve absentee voting. Republicans have made no apparent effort to crack down on that, perhaps because Republicans are more likely to vote absentee than Democrats.Republicans have, however, tried to make it hard to vote early, perhaps because Democrats are more likely to vote early.
They've made it harder for college students to vote, perhaps because college students are more likely to vote Democratic.
They've pushed for voter ID laws which primarily affect poor people who are more likely to vote Democratic.
Yeah, it's about fraud ...:grin::grin::grin:

Any data to support this assertion? Or is it just another opinion put forth as fact?

[rivergator]

Any data to support this assertion? Or is it just another opinion put forth as fact?


“This is the only area in Florida where we’ve made it easier to cast a ballot,” Daniel A. Smith, a political scientist at the University of Florida, said of absentee voting.

He posited a reason that Republican officials in particular have pushed to expand absentee voting. “The conventional wisdom is that Republicans use absentee ballots and Democrats vote early,” he said.
Republicans are in fact more likely than Democrats to vote absentee. In the 2008 general election in Florida, 47 percent of absentee voters were Republicans and 36 percent were Democrats.

link (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/07/us/politics/as-more-vote-by-mail-faulty-ballots-could-impact-elections.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0)

[Gatorrick22]

Or make a cogent, coherent argument instead of just bloviating.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

So ironic.

[rivergator]

The nun charged with voter fraud:

According to the prosecutor’s office and a court filing, the nun, Sister Marguerite Kloos, lived with Sister Rose Marie Hewitt until Hewitt’s death on Oct. 4, 2012. Both Kloos, 54, and Hewitt, who was 78 when she died, were members of the Sisters of Charity of Cincinnati, an apostolic Catholic community. Hewitt had requested an absentee ballot for the November election, and the ballot arrived in the mail just days after she died. Kloos allegedly filled it out, forged Hewitt’s signature, and mailed it back. The county Board of Elections received Hewitt’s ballot on Oct. 11.

Before the charge was filed this week, Kloos agreed to cooperate and plead guilty to one count of illegal voting. According to Cincinnati.com, Kloos also resigned last week as dean of the Division of Arts and Humanities at the College of Mount St. Joseph in Cincinnati.

So far, no one has explained what compelled Kloos to fill out Hewitt’s ballot. According to Kloos’ biographical page on the College of Mount St. Joseph website, she holds both a Doctor of Ministry degree from the United Theological Seminary and a master’s degree from the University of Dayton. In addition to serving as a dean at the college, Kloos was also an associate professor in the Department of Religious and Pastoral studies.

link (http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2013/03/marguerite_kloos_nun_voter_fraud.php?ref=fpa)

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

The nun charged with voter fraud:



link (http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2013/03/marguerite_kloos_nun_voter_fraud.php?ref=fpa)

..and?

[Row6]

..and?

..and?

And this will not stand!!!

Of course. This is just the sort of behavior that justifies making things more difficult at the polls. We all learned in 2000 that election results are perfect reflections of the national will down to the .000000000000000000001% margin and it is just these sorts of scofflaws who must be stopped!

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

..and?

And this will not stand!!!

Of course. This is just the sort of behavior that justifies making things more difficult at the polls. We all learned in 2000 that election results are perfect reflections of teh national will down to the .000000000000000000001% margin and it is just these sorts of scofflaws who must be stopped!

Your thinking here is inconsistent with your thinking on the regulation of firearms.

"if *just one* life can be saved by reducing magazine capacity...."

The point I try to make is this; voter fraud can and does happen. Why? Because as a human activity, it subject to all human foibles.

Since the success of our Republic requires confidence in our means of adjudicating elected officials, then we should do everything we can to ensure that ALL people that are legally able to vote get the opportunity to do so in an system that guarantees the least amount of fraud. Voter regulation has to walk that line.

[rivergator]

..and?

That appears to be your new gimmick, to act confused over why something was posted. Personally, I thought it was interesting. What do you think?

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

That appears to be your new gimmick, to act confused over why something was posted. Personally, I thought it was interesting. What do you think?

I DO find it interesting. In fact, I found it SO interesting, I shared essentially the same information several posts earlier. I just wondered if you were trying to make a different point.

[rivergator]

I DO find it interesting. In fact, I found it SO interesting, I shared essentially the same information several posts earlier. I just wondered if you were trying to make a different point.


more detail and a link.

[David Shepherd]

So with several days of early voting, absentee voting, someone waits till :30 minutes before poll closing and expects to waltz up to the booth?

How do you prepare for people coming in the final hours that have had days or maybe weeks to vote?

[OaktownGator]

Your thinking here is inconsistent with your thinking on the regulation of firearms.

"if *just one* life can be saved by reducing magazine capacity...."

The point I try to make is this; voter fraud can and does happen. Why? Because as a human activity, it subject to all human foibles.

Since the success of our Republic requires confidence in our means of adjudicating elected officials, then we should do everything we can to ensure that ALL people that are legally able to vote get the opportunity to do so in an system that guarantees the least amount of fraud. Voter regulation has to walk that line.
Good stuff - that should be something we can all agree to.

Of course it applies to all aspects of the voting process...
- how voting rolls are managed or "purged"
- management of the voting machine software - lack of audit and paper trail, combined with numerous reported cases of vote flipping, and simulations of how easy they are to manipulate.
- management of the tabulation process - lack of audit and paper trail, combined with documented cases of vote totals higher for one party than total voters registered and votes cast in the precincts tabulated.
- management of voter precincts - availability of working machines and poll workers to support the local voting population.
- management of the absentee voting process including assurance the absentee voters don't also cast votes in person.

As well as issues already covered in this thread.

By far the greatest opportunity for fraud is in the electronic systems themselves. If you can count votes as you please it really doesn't matter how many fraudulent voters are out there... their votes will go the way the system determines, regardless.

"It's not the people who vote that count, it's the people who count the votes." - Stalin

... or the computers that count the votes.

This stuff needs to be cleaned up systemically in all aspects, if we are to ever trust the results of our electoral process.

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

By far the greatest opportunity for fraud is in the electronic systems themselves. If you can count votes as you please it really doesn't matter how many fraudulent voters are out there... their votes will go the way the system determines, regardless.

"It's not the people who vote that count, it's the people who count the votes." - Stalin

... or the computers that count the votes.

This stuff needs to be cleaned up systemically in all aspects, if we are to ever trust the results of our electoral process.

Indeed. For this very reason, a lot of very intelligent people are now suggesting we go back to paper ballots. They have the advantage of a clear audit trail and are subject to a lot less opportunity for fraud at all levels.

[MastaG8r]

Indeed. For this very reason, a lot of very intelligent people are now suggesting we go back to paper ballots. They have the advantage of a clear audit trail and are subject to a lot less opportunity for fraud at all levels.Where I vote you fill out a paper scantron type ballot which is then run through a machine to electronically tally the votes, but meanwhile the paper ballot is put into a secure box in case of the need for a recount. That seems to me to be the best of both worlds. Although better than that would be if they checked my ID to make sure it's really me and I'm a legal Florida resident, which they don't do.

[Row6]

Your thinking here is inconsistent with your thinking on the regulation of firearms.

"if *just one* life can be saved by reducing magazine capacity...."

The point I try to make is this; voter fraud can and does happen. Why? Because as a human activity, it subject to all human foibles.

Since the success of our Republic requires confidence in our means of adjudicating elected officials, then we should do everything we can to ensure that ALL people that are legally able to vote get the opportunity to do so in an system that guarantees the least amount of fraud. Voter regulation has to walk that line.

I don't assume that just one life will be saved by magazine capacity - that would mean 11 kids in a classroom instead of 31 - and I don't see any significant downside.

We certainly should do our best at keeping elections as fair as possible and as representative of the popular will as possible but the new regulations which repubglicans have been seeking have been shown to have virtually no effect on fraud while at the same time discouraging turnout and participation. That's a lose/lose proposition. Consider how you would feel about these proposals if they required everyone to go get new photo ID's at the state licensing office. You OK with that? How many people do you think would just not bother or put it off until it was too late? And for what result - minimizing an already exceedingly rare crime? That is the effect on certain demographics in the country who do not have a driver's license or other forms of acceptable photo IDs. They have done nothing illegal which should justify this stipulation on their right to vote.

[MastaG8r]

I don't assume that just one life will be saved by magazine capacity - that would mean 11 kids in a classroom instead of 31 - and I don't see any significant downside.

We certainly should do our best at keeping elections as fair as possible and as representative of the popular will as possible but the new regulations which repubglicans have been seeking have been shown to have virtually no effect on fraud while at the same time discouraging turnout and participation. That's a lose/lose proposition. Consider how you would feel about these proposals if they required everyone to go get new photo ID's at the state licensing office. You OK with that? How many people do you think would just not bother or put it off until it was too late? And for what result - minimizing an already exceedingly rare crime? That is the effect on certain demographics in the country who do not have a driver's license or other forms of acceptable photo IDs. They have done nothing illegal which should justify this stipulation on their right to vote.Can you at least admit that the only reason you oppose voter ID laws is that the "certain demographics" you're referring to are more likely to vote Democrat?

[OaktownGator]

Where I vote you fill out a paper scantron type ballot which is then run through a machine to electronically tally the votes, but meanwhile the paper ballot is put into a secure box in case of the need for a recount. That seems to me to be the best of both worlds. Although better than that would be if they checked my ID to make sure it's really me and I'm a legal Florida resident, which they don't do.
That should work, including the ID provision you suggest.

[OaktownGator]

Indeed. For this very reason, a lot of very intelligent people are now suggesting we go back to paper ballots. They have the advantage of a clear audit trail and are subject to a lot less opportunity for fraud at all levels.
Absolutely... or something like MastaG8r referenced could also work.

Edit: Electronic could still work, if they just ran them like the ATM machines (like Diebold produces). Produce a paper transaction log, have the voter review it for accuracy and then drop it in a ballot box - there's your paper trail.

Electronic tabulation audits are easy to implement too.

There's no good reason not to demand the providers fix these issues.

[Row6]

Can you at least admit that the only reason you oppose voter ID laws is that the "certain demographics" you're referring to are more likely to vote Democrat?

I could but what difference would it make? Why don't we agree to fair and convenient voting procedures for all Americans irregardless of party and then you won't have to address every subject on TH as a scoring of your partisan interests which you seem to think you are losing?

The point in my post of what you bolded was to emphasize how differently some would feel on this subject if everyone had to go get a new photo ID to vote next time.

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

The whole voter ID thing at the point of voting is a chimera for both parties. Most voter fraud takes place at registration. ID should definitely be required there. A lot of voter fraud takes place in absentee balloting. A lot of thought should be put into how we curb that fraud. And the rest of the fraud seems to take place during counting.

There is some fraud that takes place at the polling booth, but I agree with the assessment that point is the least vulnerable.

BTW, I live in Georgia and this state requirs ID to vote. During the November elections, I did not hear of any stories where people thought this was an undue burden or where some people did not get to vote that wanted to vote due to this requirement.

[MastaG8r]

I could but what difference would it make? Why don't we agree to fair and convenient voting procedures for all Americans irregardless of party and then you won't have to address every subject on TH as a scoring of your partisan interests which you seem to think you are losing?

The point in my post of what you bolded was to emphasize how differently some would feel on this subject if everyone had to go get a new photo ID to vote next time.The difference would be that we could have a more honest debate. I get annoyed by the posturing of people who pretend to oppose voter ID requirements out of concern for the fairness of the voting process, when the truth is that they're afraid of their party being disadvantaged.

I haven't seen any suggestion that people should be required to get a special voting ID, so what's the point of that hypothetical? Any valid picture ID should suffice. Nearly everyone has one and its very easy to get one if you don't.

If you and ..... oh wait a minute we interrupt this post for a special announcement, NEW POPE, NEW POPE

[Row6]

The difference would be that we could have a more honest debate. I get annoyed by the posturing of people who pretend to oppose voter ID requirements out of concern for the fairness of the voting process, when the truth is that they're afraid of their party being disadvantaged.

I haven't seen any suggestion that people should be required to get a special voting ID, so what's the point of that hypothetical? Any valid picture ID should suffice. Nearly everyone has one and its very easy to get one if you don't.

If you and ..... oh wait a minute we interrupt this post for a special announcement, NEW POPE, NEW POPE

Of course someone as non-partisan as you would be Shocked! - Shocked I tell you! that another poster might be partisan. I feel your pain.

The point of my posts was to highlight the fact that many people who will be adversely impacted by photo ID laws HAVE NO PHOTO ID. So, consider that if the new laws required that everyone had to get a new photo ID from the state driver's license office and that you and me would have to make that trip, wait around, etc etc. and see if that might help you empathize with those for whom that will be a reality. Do we think that having a drivers license makes us more virtuous than those who don't. We know that the supposed fraud this will end is miniscule to non-existent yet will result in many present voters not voting BECAUSE IT WILL BE A HASSLE that you and I don't have to endure.

[OaktownGator]

Of course someone as non-partisan as you would be Shocked! - Shocked I tell you! that another poster might be partisan. I feel your pain.

The point of my posts was to highlight the fact that many people who will be adversely impacted by photo ID laws HAVE NO PHOTO ID. So, consider that if the new laws required that everyone had to get a new photo ID from the state driver's license office and that you and me would have to make that trip, wait around, etc etc. and see if that might help you empathize with those for whom that will be a reality. Do we think that having a drivers license makes us more virtuous than those who don't. We know that the supposed fraud this will end is miniscule to non-existent yet will result in many present voters not voting BECAUSE IT WILL BE A HASSLE that you and I don't have to endure.
On the flip side, I have a difficult time believing there are many people who don't drive (already have an id) and won't make the time to get an ID, who will actually make the time to vote.

And of that tiny number of people, fewer still are likely to have a clue what they'd be voting about... I recognize having a clue isn't required, and probably not even desired by the major political parties... but it'd be nice.

[Row6]

On the flip side, I have a difficult time believing there are many people who don't drive (already have an id) and won't make the time to get an ID, who will actually make the time to vote.

And of that tiny number of people, fewer still are likely to have a clue what they'd be voting about... I recognize having a clue isn't required, and probably not even desired by the major political parties... but it'd be nice.

The data suggests otherwise, and you might also consider the relative difficulty in going to get a photo ID - especially when you don't want or need it to drive - vs going to vote. Not having a driver's license says nothing at all about how informed one is, not to mention we did away with literacy tests a long time ago.

[OaktownGator]

The data suggests otherwise, and you might also consider the relative difficulty in going to get a photo ID - especially when you don't want or need it to drive - vs going to vote. Not having a driver's license says nothing at all about how informed one is, not to mention we did away with literacy tests a long time ago.
What data suggests otherwise?

I'd like to see data on eligible voters who don't have photo IDs and have such difficulty getting them that a two year lead time (or four year for major elections) is such a burden.

On face value that assertion seems entirely nonsensical.

[MastaG8r]

Of course someone as non-partisan as you would be Shocked! - Shocked I tell you! that another poster might be partisan. I feel your pain.

The point of my posts was to highlight the fact that many people who will be adversely impacted by photo ID laws HAVE NO PHOTO ID. So, consider that if the new laws required that everyone had to get a new photo ID from the state driver's license office and that you and me would have to make that trip, wait around, etc etc. and see if that might help you empathize with those for whom that will be a reality. Do we think that having a drivers license makes us more virtuous than those who don't. We know that the supposed fraud this will end is miniscule to non-existent yet will result in many present voters not voting BECAUSE IT WILL BE A HASSLE that you and I don't have to endure.I am completely partisan, but what sets me apart from most others here is the extent to which I am also completely open, honest and straightforward about it. I think voter ID laws might help cut down on a lot of the fraud going on in congested urban precincts where it's hard to keep things straight and on the up and up. So in other words I support a voter ID requirement because I think Republican candidates will benefit from it, and I make no bones about it. You oppose it for the opposite reason. Right?

[BobK89]

So with several days of early voting, absentee voting, someone waits till :30 minutes before poll closing and expects to waltz up to the booth?

How do you prepare for people coming in the final hours that have had days or maybe weeks to vote?

The odd think is that Pennsylvania has no early voting period, still got everyone to the polls, closed on time and tallied the results before midnight?

Why can't Florida do this?

Sent from my iPhone using GatorCountry

[wgbgator]

The odd think is that Pennsylvania has no early voting period, still got everyone to the polls, closed on time and tallied the results before midnight?

Why can't Florida do this?

Sent from my iPhone using GatorCountry

We do have about 7 million more people in FL. But I would imagine its a matter of them having more machines & polling centers, and probably just a greater historical commitment to making sure voting is as convenient as possible. FL and the rest of the South has been quite resistant historically to making voting simple or convenient for certain citizens.

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

The data suggests otherwise, and you might also consider the relative difficulty in going to get a photo ID - especially when you don't want or need it to drive - vs going to vote. Not having a driver's license says nothing at all about how informed one is, not to mention we did away with literacy tests a long time ago.

Fortunately, we no longer have to rely on academic "data." We have real life examples of voter ID requirements. There are several states that now require ID to vote. I live in one. Please show us the evidence in those states where there were people that wanted to vote were not able to vote, due entirely to the ID requirement.

[Row6]

What data suggests otherwise?

I'd like to see data on eligible voters who don't have photo IDs and have such difficulty getting them that a two year lead time (or four year for major elections) is such a burden.

On face value that assertion seems entirely nonsensical.

http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/NA-BS309_NG_NS_20120831165103.jpg

http://votingrights.news21.com/interactive/election-fraud-database/

Bush DOJ finds no voter fraud evidence

"Five years after the Bush administration began a crackdown on voter fraud, the Justice Department has turned up virtually no evidence of any organized effort to skew federal elections, according to court records and interviews."

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/12/washington/12fraud.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

The Truth About Voter Fraud

"Allegations of widespread voter fraud, however, often prove greatly exaggerated. It is easy to grab headlines with a lurid claim ("Tens of thousands may be voting illegally!"); the follow-up - when any exists - is not usually deemed newsworthy. Yet on closer examination, many of the claims of voter fraud amount to a great deal of smoke without much fire. The allegations simply do not pan out."

http://www.brennancenter.org/publication/truth-about-voter-fraud

[Row6]

I am completely partisan, but what sets me apart from most others here is the extent to which I am also completely open, honest and straightforward about it. I think voter ID laws might help cut down on a lot of the fraud going on in congested urban precincts where it's hard to keep things straight and on the up and up. So in other words I support a voter ID requirement because I think Republican candidates will benefit from it, and I make no bones about it. You oppose it for the opposite reason. Right?

What fraud? Numerous studies - including the results of a Bush DOJ 5 year effort - came up empty. You think the blacks (we know what "urban" means) are up to no good of course - how else could we have one as a president - but you don't have any evidence supporting the need for hassling Americans, done in a strictly Libertarian-freedom way of course. That's the difference between our positions - yours only makes sense on strictly partisan grounds.

[Row6]

The odd think is that Pennsylvania has no early voting period, still got everyone to the polls, closed on time and tallied the results before midnight?

Why can't Florida do this?

Sent from my iPhone using GatorCountry

Yes indeed, lets make it harder to vote for no reason at all. Brilliant!!

[Row6]

Fortunately, we no longer have to rely on academic "data." We have real life examples of voter ID requirements. There are several states that now require ID to vote. I live in one. Please show us the evidence in those states where there were people that wanted to vote were not able to vote, due entirely to the ID requirement.

How about you produce any data, academic or otherwise? The Bush DOJ spent 5 years busting "voter fraud" and came up empty. Otherwise you are just constructing hoops for American voters for no reason at all beyond winning elections. Aren't you guys the "freedom", "less Government team"? Now you want positive evidence that hassling voters for no reason is painless? Read the Brennan Center report on disenfranchisement (up thread).

Here a tidbit from your state that's amusing:

"Earlier this year, he noted, the Pew Center on the States found that more than 1.8 million people who had died were still registered to vote in America, and that 2.75 million people were registered to vote in multiple states. How many of these errors translate into fraudulent votes? “It is impossible to answer,” he said. “We don’t have the tools in place.” But he cited a 2000 investigation, by the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, of voting records in Georgia over the previous two decades; the paper reported that it had turned up fifty-four hundred instances of dead people being recorded as having voted. “That seems pretty substantial to me,” he said.

He did not mention that the article’s findings were later revised. The Journal-Constitution ran a follow-up article after the Georgia Secretary of State’s office indicated that the vast majority of the cases appeared to reflect clerical errors. Upon closer inspection, the paper admitted, its only specific example of a deceased voter casting a ballot didn’t hold up. The ballot of a living voter had been attributed to a dead man whose name was nearly identical."

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012/10/29/121029fa_fact_mayer#ixzz2NVk7ixvS

In the meantime you keep posting anecdotes about nuns corrupting our system. Cue the Mighty Mouse theme.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=kGx94VPb8V8#t=0s

[LittleBlueLW]

I'd like to see data on eligible voters who don't have photo IDs and have such difficulty getting them that a two year lead time (or four year for major elections) is such a burden.


You wont get that answer. Row will continue to move the goalposts towards 'where is the fraud?'

Obtaining a photo ID is now considered burdensome? What a lame excuse. If the person seeking to vote really thought it that important, they'd make the effort. If not, they shouldn't vote anyway.

[Row6]

I'd like to see data on eligible voters who don't have photo IDs and have such difficulty getting them that a two year lead time (or four year for major elections) is such a burden.


You wont get that answer. Row will continue to move the goalposts towards 'where is the fraud?'

Obtaining a photo ID is now considered burdensome? What a lame excuse. If the person seeking to vote really thought it that important, they'd make the effort. If not, they shouldn't vote anyway.

The goal post moving is being done by advocates for hassling law abiding Americans who are not voting for Republicans in sufficient numbers. If the shoe fits, wear it.

It may be easy for you to have a photo ID - dollars to donuts there's one in your pocket right now, unless you're in your pajamas - but if there wasn't one sufficient for you to vote you might not like having to go get one for only that purpose and might even forget to do it by the cut off. If you're so hot on this idea, why don't we agree that the government make this new obstacle as easy as possible by providing the means to create one at registration or polling locations including on the day of the vote? OK?

Also read the Brennan Report (up thread) which addresses suppression of the vote.

[LittleBlueLW]

The goal post moving is being done by advocates for hassling law abiding Americans who are not voting for Republicans in sufficient numbers. If the shoe fits, wear it.

It may be easy for you to have a photo ID - dollars to donuts there's one in your pocket right now, unless you're in your pajamas - but if there wasn't one sufficient for you to vote you might not like having to go get one for only that purpose and might even forget to do it by the cut off. If you're so hot on this idea, why don't we agree that the government make this new obstacle as easy as possible by providing the means to create one at registration or polling locations including on the day of the vote? OK?

Also read the Brennan Report (up thread) which addresses suppression of the vote.

So now having an ID is hassling? BS

It is easy for anyone to have a photo ID.

There's lots of stuff people have to do every day that they may not like but tough sh%t. If you want to vote, you might want to change your priorities and get off your a$$ and go get an ID, even if you do it on election day at the polling place.

I am not sure the govt could make it any easier, except to pay people to do it. Oh wait, they already do that.

[madgator]

Personally, I loved how the UN poll workers (as well as other foreign citizens I know) are baffled that the US does not have voter ID requirements.


I have no heard one persuasive arguement by any supporter as to why there should be no voter ID laws nor has there been any logical refute to the point that not having ID laws does leads to wrong doing.

[rivergator]

Personally, I loved how the UN poll workers (as well as other foreign citizens I know) are baffled that the US does not have voter ID requirements.


I have no heard one persuasive arguement by any supporter as to why there should be no voter ID laws nor has there been any logical refute to the point that not having ID laws does leads to wrong doing.
There are plenty of countries that don't require ID and some that only require something with your name on it, not a photo ID.

[neisgator]

What data suggests otherwise?

I'd like to see data on eligible voters who don't have photo IDs and have such difficulty getting them that a two year lead time (or four year for major elections) is such a burden.

On face value that assertion seems entirely nonsensical.

We don't agree on a ton... But kudos here... Your point cannot be debated by a sober thinking rational individual

[wgbgator]

I think foreign people would be more perplexed that each state can come up with its own rules on voting (not to mention districting) and that there is nothing even approaching a national standard WRT elections, registration or ID requirements.

[Row6]

So now having an ID is hassling? BS

It is easy for anyone to have a photo ID.

There's lots of stuff people have to do every day that they may not like but tough sh%t. If you want to vote, you might want to change your priorities and get off your a$$ and go get an ID, even if you do it on election day at the polling place.

I am not sure the govt could make it any easier, except to pay people to do it. Oh wait, they already do that.

OK, since you don't want to compromise on making photo ID's easy for people who don't have one let's get serious and require a "special" voter ID - not a drivers license or other existing ID - and you have to go downtown to get it. I am suspicious that some of these "drivers" are cheating in the election, which is the only way Rubio could have won in 2010. Get your bus tcicket.

[LittleBlueLW]

OK, since you don't want to compromise on making photo ID's easy for people who don't have one let's get serious and require a "special" voter ID - not a drivers license or other existing ID - and you have to go downtown to get it. I am suspicious that some of these "drivers" are cheating in the election, which is the only way Rubio could have won in 2010. Get your bus tcicket.

So photo IDs in your world are hard to come by? So you would rather have another 'special' one?

You are all over the map.

[rivergator]

So photo IDs in your world are hard to come by? So you would rather have another 'special' one?

You are all over the map.

some people here are pointing to what other countries do: Some do provide a national ID.

[LittleBlueLW]

some people here are pointing to what other countries do: Some do provide a national ID.

Well then lets do it. Frickin tattoo the ID number on their foreheads for all I care but lets dont pretend its a hassle or burdensome to obtain an ID in this country.

Thats just an excuse for being lazy.

[rivergator]

Actually, when the voter ID issue was first brought up a few years ago, I thought it was only natural that you should produce one. Then it became clear that there are legal, registered voters who don't have one. I honestly had not realized that.
My bigger problem is the whole package of what Republicans are trying to do: Voter ID, cutting early voting hours, only letting those who are more likely to vote Republican vote early, making harder for college students to vote .... all aimed at reducing Democratic votes.
That's pretty damn unAmerican.
They're doing this under the guise of fighting voter fraud, which isn't very common. But when it is found, it's almost always absentee voting, which leans Republican.
The whole thing is just a sleazy scam meant to skew elections.

[wgbgator]

Most of the states that passed ID laws already had ID requirements. They just aimed at reducing the acceptable ID forms, targeting ones that would likely be undesirable demographics - i.e. college IDs.

[rivergator]

Most of the states that passed ID laws already had ID requirements. They just aimed at reducing the acceptable ID forms, targeting ones that would likely be undesirable demographics - i.e. college IDs.

the effort to make it harder for college students to vote is as clear an indication as anything of what's really behind all this.

[MastaG8r]

the effort to make it harder for college students to vote is as clear an indication as anything of what's really behind all this.Oh okay, now there's an effort to make it harder for college students to vote. LMAO! A college ID is not a suitable form of identification for any purpose other than identifying yourself as a student. What college student doesn't have a driver's license or state ID? You have to show one to get the college ID in the first place! Give me a break.

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

How about you produce any data, academic or otherwise?

You are the one making the assertion that voter ID laws prevent some people from voting. It is up to you to prove your own case. There are many states that have voter ID requirements. The state I live in is Georgia and it requires voter ID. Show us evidence where people in Georgia that wanted to vote were not able to vote STRICTLY BECAUSE OF VOTER ID REQUIREMENTS.

[MastaG8r]

What fraud? Numerous studies - including the results of a Bush DOJ 5 year effort - came up empty. You think the blacks (we know what "urban" means) are up to no good of course - how else could we have one as a president - but you don't have any evidence supporting the need for hassling Americans, done in a strictly Libertarian-freedom way of course. That's the difference between our positions - yours only makes sense on strictly partisan grounds.Like someone else said, you are all over the map. On the one hand you claim fraud isn't a problem because there's no proof of it. But on the other hand you claim voter ID requirements are a problem because they will make it unreasonably more difficult for people to vote...even though there's no proof of that! Or if there is, you haven't shown any in response to multiple requests to do so.

I support the Tea Party. It is not a racist organization and there is no racial element in any of the consensus Tea Party positions on any issue. That said though, I have no trouble acknowledging that there are probably Tea Party supporters who believe in racist notions of white supremacy. I'm quite sure you believe that too, Row6. Yet...where's the proof of it?

Just like I suspect that there are racist people who align themselves with the Tea Party, I suspect that there is voter fraud going on in precincts that are totally controlled from top to bottom by extremely partisan, activist Democrats who have the means to hide any and all evidence of the fraud and make it all but impossible to discover. I also suspect that you believe that too, just as surely as you believe there are racists in the Tea Party.

Democrats don't oppose measures to minimize voter fraud because they think it's an unnecessary imposition on lawful voters. They oppose measures to minimize voter fraud...because they oppose minimizing voter fraud. And by the same token, Republicans who support such measures aren't motivated by their concern about the sanctity of the process. They're motivated by the desire to win more elections.

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

Democrats don't oppose measures to minimize voter fraud because they think it's an unnecessary imposition on lawful voters. They oppose measures to minimize voter fraud...because they oppose minimizing voter fraud. And by the same token, Republicans who support such measures aren't motivated by their concern about the sanctity of the process. They're motivated by the desire to win more elections.

Overall, your post was nicely put. I am not sure I agree with this paragraph though. The sanctity of the process IS the motivating factor for many conservative and libertarians. Not all, and as you say, some members of the GOP are motivated by what you charge.

[rivergator]

Oh okay, now there's an effort to make it harder for college students to vote. LMAO! A college ID is not a suitable form of identification for any purpose other than identifying yourself as a student. What college student doesn't have a driver's license or state ID? You have to show one to get the college ID in the first place! Give me a break.

A little education is not a bad thing:

However, a little-noticed provision in AB 7 will likely prevent thousands of college students from voting in today’s recall election.

Wisconsin (http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/06/05/494926/republicans-disenfranchise-wisconsin-college-students/)

Paying out-of-state tuition could cost students something more under legislation that will be debated Wednesday: their vote.

Under House Bill 1311, students who pay out-of-state tuition would not be able to vote in Indiana.

Indiana (http://www.indystar.com/article/20130205/NEWS05/302050330/Indiana-legislature-bill-would-restrict-out-state-college-students-from-voting)

Maine (http://bangordailynews.com/2011/11/08/politics/early-results-indicate-election-day-voter-registration-restored/)

New Hampshire's new Republican state House speaker is pretty clear about what he thinks of college kids and how they vote. They're "foolish," Speaker William O'Brien said in a recent speech to a tea party group.
"Voting as a liberal. That's what kids do," he added, his comments taped by a state Democratic Party staffer and posted on YouTube. Students lack "life experience," and "they just vote their feelings."

New Hampshire House Republicans are pushing for new laws that would prohibit many college students from voting in the state - and effectively keep some from voting at all.

New Hampshire (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/03/06/AR2011030602662.html)

[MastaG8r]

Overall, your post was nicely put. I am not sure I agree with this paragraph though. The sanctity of the process IS the motivating factor for many conservative and libertarians. Not all, and as you say, some members of the GOP are motivated by what you charge.Well perhaps I went too far in attributing my partisan motives to all my fellow Conservatives. For the most part though, I do think the concern is about the likelihood of shenanigans being pulled by ACORN-type organizations for the benefit of Democratic candidates. If the Republican candidate for president had won in 2008 and/or 2012 I doubt there would be much concern among people on the Right about the issue of voter fraud. On the Left, though, it would be a different story. Remember their obsession with Diebold circa 2004? What happened to that?

[madgator]

That said though, I have no trouble acknowledging that there are probably Tea Party supporters who believe in racist notions of white supremacy. I'm quite sure you believe that too, Row6. Yet...where's the proof of it?


Funny that because there might be some racist white tea party member that the organization and it's policies are de facto racist.


but yet the same doesn't apply for the democrats who receive the vote and support from organizations like the Black Panthers and the Fruit of Islam

[neisgator]

Funny that because there might be some racist white tea party member that the organization and it's policies are de facto racist.


but yet the same doesn't apply for the democrats who receive the vote and support from organizations like the Black Panthers and the Fruit of Islam

Im good with it.

All Democrats are racist.

Signed,

Robert KKK Byrd.