The Hagel hearings show just how much Israel owns America

[AmericaFirst]

First, anyone that has watched or read about these hearings can see that the GOP wants an outright war against Iran. They want another Iraq and likely because AIPAC has been trying to push through bills that would prevent our politicians from having negotiations with Iran. How despicable is that? Why would they do that? Because they want Americans to fight Israel's war.

Second, I love how questioning his "support" for Israel is like questioning his love for America. That is beyond despicable and shows just how low the GOP has sunk these days as they continue to kiss AIPAC's butt so they can get their campaigns funded. Afterall, AIPAC is the second most powerful lobby in DC outside of the NRA and has a budget of over $70 million. Many AIPAC members have also been arrested for espionage and passing over documents to the Israelis. Great group that bunch is, eh?

I love how McCain questioned his opposition to the surge in the Iraq war. How delusional are the GOP these days? They still think this war was a success when the Iraq war from start to finish was a failure of epic proportions, has led to anarchy in the country, and no WMDs were found. Not too mention it left thousands of our troops dead. And for what? What did we gain? Just to get Saddam Hussein out of there?

Third, his infamous "Jewish Lobby" quote. Israel considers themselves a Jewish State. AIPAC is their lobby in the USA. Calling them a Jewish Lobby is what they are, but naturally, the bozos are trying to use the ole "anti-semitic" card on that one.

The facts on Israel:

- Killed American troops back in 1967 aboard the USS Liberty with the intention to blame it on Egypt and bring us into the conflict on Israel's side.
- The Lavon Affair - Israel intended to bomb our Embassy along with the UK's and blame it on The Muslim Brotherhood.
- They are relentlessly persecuting the Palestinians and continue to build thousands of illegal settlements (condemned by the UN) even after Palestine gained "non-member state" recognition by the UN just recently.
- They refuse to sign the NPT that Iran HAS signed.
- They refuse to declare that they have nuclear weapons when the world knows they do.
- They have never allowed UN inspections of their nuclear facilities.
- They have no desire to see nuclear weapons disappear from the region but to rather be one of the few countries in the region to have them.
- Numerous spy attempts in the USA, one of which being caught filming the 9/11 attack
- I can go on and on


Israel owns the USA. When Israel says jump, America says how high?



How can anyone here support them and call themselves an American? These GOP politicians are hammering a Vietnam war veteran, a man who fought in one of the worst (if not the worst) wars in American history and yet they're attacking him because he doesn't want to kiss Israel's butt? What country is this?


The GOP won't ever get votes from real conservatives like myself until they move toward the Libertarian side of the aisle, stop the nonstop war talk, and stop putting Israel's interests above our own.


http://www.politico.com/story/2013/01/chuck-hagel-fails-to-quash-gop-critics-87040.html

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/01/chuck-hagel-stumbles-on-iran-question-87001.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uWHApr4g9E

[halsgator]

bs

[AmericaFirst]

bs



More like FACT. You keep thinking those big bad Muslims in the Middle East are the problem without looking at how our government (via AIPAC) is labeling entire countries as "terrorist states" while refusing to even have a somewhat unbiased look at the destruction Israel is wreaking across the region.

[ChartsandGrafs]

It's beyond ownership. It's complete and total domination.

Secretary of State John Foster Dulles:

"I am aware how almost impossible it is in this country to carry out a foreign policy [in the Middle East] not approved by the Jews..... terrific control the Jews have over the news media and the barrage the Jews have built up on congressmen .... I am very much concerned over the fact that the Jewish influence here is completely dominating the scene and making it almost impossible to get congress to do anything they don't approve of. The Israeli embassy is practically dictating to the congress through influential Jewish people in the country"

Admiral Thomas Moorer, Joint Chiefs of Staff:

"I've never seen a president --I don't care who he is-- stand up to them [the Israelis]. It just boggles your mind. They always get what they want. The Israelis know what's going on all the time. I got to the point where I wasn't writing anything down. If the American people understood what grip those people have on our government, they would rise up in arms. Our citizens don't have any idea what goes on."

Former Congressman Paul Findley:

"The Israeli Prime Minister has a lot more influence over the foreign policy of the United States in the Middle East than he has in his own country."

Senator J. William Fullbright:

"The Israelis control the policy in the congress and the senate ... somewhere around 80 percent of the senate of the United States is completely in support of Israel -- of anything Israel wants."

http://christogenea.org/sites/default/files/images/dd395-AIPAC.preview.jpg

[108]

Barack gets a whole lot of flack when he does anything that pushes up against Israel's power

The best part is the tizzy it gets Conservatives in...

[MichiGator2002]

I am Team Mall, not Team Zombies. Israel is the mall in the Middle East.

[co_gator89]

I would never be confirmed as defense secretary. If I was sitting up there and Lindsey Graham had the balls to ask me to "name one person who is intimidated by the Israeli lobby", my answer?

"Senator, I could name about 535. You oughta know, you're one of them. Shall I start with the ones sitting right in front of me?"

[Burke]

Israel is an outpost of civilization with homicidal religious savages on three sides of them.
Savages that hate the modern world and want to destroy it. This makes Israel our ally, people fighting our war.

Leftists and others here don't just hate the Israelis. They hate traditional
America and Western values, just as the Islamics do. They are allies.

And Americans need to understand that.

[wgbgator]

The left soured on Israel because its become less secular & socialist and more right-wing and fanatically religious.

[gator421]

Israel is an outpost of civilization with homicidal religious savages on three sides of them.
Savages that hate the modern world and want to destroy it. This makes Israel our ally, people fighting our war.

Leftists and others here don't just hate the Israelis. They hate traditional
America and Western values, just as the Islamics do. They are allies.

And Americans need to understand that.

Tell me you're not serious.

[MichiGator2002]

I think Burke's first paragraph is pretty much true, with the qualification that it isn't that every man, woman, and child in the Arab Muslim world is a 12th century throwback, just that that is the trend with the most influence. It doesn't take all, most, or even a plurality necessarily to lock a society in that sort of cycle.

[wgbgator]

Tell me you're not serious.

If he's not serious, he's been incredibly consistent in his unseriousness, having posted a version of that many, many times.

[rivergator]

The left soured on Israel because its become less secular & socialist and more right-wing and fanatically religious.

Actually, I don't know if the left soured on Israel as much as the right, which used to criticize Democrats' close ties to Israel, became completely zealous in its support for the country. Some of it seems based on the idea that anyone who opposes Muslims deserves complete support. But some of it also seems religious - that it's all part of Christ's return to Earth.

[The_Graygator]

First, anyone that has watched or read about these hearings can see that the GOP wants an outright war against Iran. They want another Iraq and likely because AIPAC has been trying to push through bills that would prevent our politicians from having negotiations with Iran. How despicable is that? Why would they do that? Because they want Americans to fight Israel's war.

Second, I love how questioning his "support" for Israel is like questioning his love for America. That is beyond despicable and shows just how low the GOP has sunk these days as they continue to kiss AIPAC's butt so they can get their campaigns funded. Afterall, AIPAC is the second most powerful lobby in DC outside of the NRA and has a budget of over $70 million. Many AIPAC members have also been arrested for espionage and passing over documents to the Israelis. Great group that bunch is, eh?

I love how McCain questioned his opposition to the surge in the Iraq war. How delusional are the GOP these days? They still think this war was a success when the Iraq war from start to finish was a failure of epic proportions, has led to anarchy in the country, and no WMDs were found. Not too mention it left thousands of our troops dead. And for what? What did we gain? Just to get Saddam Hussein out of there?

Third, his infamous "Jewish Lobby" quote. Israel considers themselves a Jewish State. AIPAC is their lobby in the USA. Calling them a Jewish Lobby is what they are, but naturally, the bozos are trying to use the ole "anti-semitic" card on that one.

The facts on Israel:

- Killed American troops back in 1967 aboard the USS Liberty with the intention to blame it on Egypt and bring us into the conflict on Israel's side.
- The Lavon Affair - Israel intended to bomb our Embassy along with the UK's and blame it on The Muslim Brotherhood.
- They are relentlessly persecuting the Palestinians and continue to build thousands of illegal settlements (condemned by the UN) even after Palestine gained "non-member state" recognition by the UN just recently.
- They refuse to sign the NPT that Iran HAS signed.
- They refuse to declare that they have nuclear weapons when the world knows they do.
- They have never allowed UN inspections of their nuclear facilities.
- They have no desire to see nuclear weapons disappear from the region but to rather be one of the few countries in the region to have them.
- Numerous spy attempts in the USA, one of which being caught filming the 9/11 attack
- I can go on and on


Israel owns the USA. When Israel says jump, America says how high?



How can anyone here support them and call themselves an American? These GOP politicians are hammering a Vietnam war veteran, a man who fought in one of the worst (if not the worst) wars in American history and yet they're attacking him because he doesn't want to kiss Israel's butt? What country is this?


The GOP won't ever get votes from real conservatives like myself until they move toward the Libertarian side of the aisle, stop the nonstop war talk, and stop putting Israel's interests above our own.


http://www.politico.com/story/2013/01/chuck-hagel-fails-to-quash-gop-critics-87040.html

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/01/chuck-hagel-stumbles-on-iran-question-87001.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uWHApr4g9E



How can anyone defend the socialist, Isreali-hating Obama administration and call themselves an American is more the question.

[wgbgator]

Actually, I don't know if the left soured on Israel as much as the right, which used to criticize Democrats' close ties to Israel, became completely zealous in its support for the country. Some of it seems based on the idea that anyone who opposes Muslims deserves complete support. But some of it also seems religious - that it's all part of Christ's return to Earth.

I meant the "left" in a more general, global sense. US Democrats are a notable exception, as their support is as solid as ever, and only seems lacking given the American right's recent drum beating on Israel, and their natural affinity with Bbi.

[ArtVandelay]

The ignorance of some of this talk is scary.

[AmericaFirst]

I would never be confirmed as defense secretary. If I was sitting up there and Lindsey Graham had the balls to ask me to "name one person who is intimidated by the Israeli lobby", my answer?

"Senator, I could name about 535. You oughta know, you're one of them. Shall I start with the ones sitting right in front of me?"



Yeah, my big problem with Hagel is the fact that he didn't fight back and stand his ground on those comments he made during his hearing. He backtracked a bit as if he was wrong for saying it when all he did was say what millions of Americans really believe. AIPAC uses the weapon of labeling a politician an anti-semite and then pours millions and millions of dollars into the campaign of the opponent that will bow down to Israel. They tried to get Ron Paul out of there for years and years. Glad the voters in Texas had more sense than that.

In today's America, supporting Israel is more important than supporting America and that's why all of Israel's enemies are our enemies and we're stuck in a region where war has been going on for thousands of years. The USA these days might as well be located smack-dab in the Middle East.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynWjYHP91gA

[AmericaFirst]

Israel is an outpost of civilization with homicidal religious savages on three sides of them.
Savages that hate the modern world and want to destroy it. This makes Israel our ally, people fighting our war.

Leftists and others here don't just hate the Israelis. They hate traditional
America and Western values, just as the Islamics do. They are allies.

And Americans need to understand that.



My idea of America is a country that leads the world as opposed to being a slave to a foreign entity on the other side of the world. To say that Israel is an "outpost of civilization" is absurd beyond words. Some of the most disgusting racism today is seen in Israel where they're kicking Palestinians out of their homes, destroying their water supply, controlling their economy while keeping it close to collapsing, and attacking them with phosphorus bombs IE: chemical weapons.

They don't want peace. They've never wanted peace. Israel no longer matters on a global scale if peace is ever achieved. They thrive on instability, which is why they carry out the most false-flag attacks in the world today.


If they wanted peace, they wouldn't be pushing for war against Iran.

[AmericaFirst]

How can anyone defend the socialist, Isreali-hating Obama administration and call themselves an American is more the question.



It's easy to defend a stance against a particular country when they suck taxpayer dollars and billions at that from hardworking Americans while also dragging us into their conflicts in the Middle East. Did I also mention that they've attacked Americans abroad as part of their false-flag attacks?




If you believe the USA should be Israel's slave, that's your opinion.

[LeesGator]

First, anyone that has watched or read about these hearings can see that the GOP wants an outright war against Iran. They want another Iraq and likely because AIPAC has been trying to push through bills that would prevent our politicians from having negotiations with Iran. How despicable is that? Why would they do that? Because they want Americans to fight Israel's war.

Second, I love how questioning his "support" for Israel is like questioning his love for America. That is beyond despicable and shows just how low the GOP has sunk these days as they continue to kiss AIPAC's butt so they can get their campaigns funded. Afterall, AIPAC is the second most powerful lobby in DC outside of the NRA and has a budget of over $70 million. Many AIPAC members have also been arrested for espionage and passing over documents to the Israelis. Great group that bunch is, eh?

I love how McCain questioned his opposition to the surge in the Iraq war. How delusional are the GOP these days? They still think this war was a success when the Iraq war from start to finish was a failure of epic proportions, has led to anarchy in the country, and no WMDs were found. Not too mention it left thousands of our troops dead. And for what? What did we gain? Just to get Saddam Hussein out of there?

Third, his infamous "Jewish Lobby" quote. Israel considers themselves a Jewish State. AIPAC is their lobby in the USA. Calling them a Jewish Lobby is what they are, but naturally, the bozos are trying to use the ole "anti-semitic" card on that one.

The facts on Israel:

- Killed American troops back in 1967 aboard the USS Liberty with the intention to blame it on Egypt and bring us into the conflict on Israel's side.
- The Lavon Affair - Israel intended to bomb our Embassy along with the UK's and blame it on The Muslim Brotherhood.
- They are relentlessly persecuting the Palestinians and continue to build thousands of illegal settlements (condemned by the UN) even after Palestine gained "non-member state" recognition by the UN just recently.
- They refuse to sign the NPT that Iran HAS signed.
- They refuse to declare that they have nuclear weapons when the world knows they do.
- They have never allowed UN inspections of their nuclear facilities.
- They have no desire to see nuclear weapons disappear from the region but to rather be one of the few countries in the region to have them.
- Numerous spy attempts in the USA, one of which being caught filming the 9/11 attack
- I can go on and on


Israel owns the USA. When Israel says jump, America says how high?



How can anyone here support them and call themselves an American? These GOP politicians are hammering a Vietnam war veteran, a man who fought in one of the worst (if not the worst) wars in American history and yet they're attacking him because he doesn't want to kiss Israel's butt? What country is this?


The GOP won't ever get votes from real conservatives like myself until they move toward the Libertarian side of the aisle, stop the nonstop war talk, and stop putting Israel's interests above our own.


http://www.politico.com/story/2013/01/chuck-hagel-fails-to-quash-gop-critics-87040.html

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/01/chuck-hagel-stumbles-on-iran-question-87001.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uWHApr4g9E

We get it already, you hate the Jews. Interesting side note is that the Jewish vote went almost 70% to President Obama.

[Lawdog88]

There is a Jewish lobby, and it does try to influence all US foreign policy for its own purposes, which it / they - of course - characterize as common purposes.

The real question is, can we actually analyze and formulate our middle-east policies without the Jewish influence sufficient to make an independent determination of whether they actually are in our best interests . . . or not ?

What's not to know ?

[gatorev12]

There is a Jewish lobby, and it does try to influence all US foreign policy for its own purposes, which it / they - of course - characterize as common purposes.


True. By most objective analyses, Israel supports American interests across the spectrum. They believe in democracy, capitalism, basic human rights as a tenet of social governance--and certainly, Israel "buys American" on a lot of products too.

The real question is, can we actually analyze and formulate our middle-east policies without the Jewish influence sufficient to make an independent determination of whether they actually are in our best interests . . . or not ?


That is a valid question.

As a corollary to that question: it's undoubted that countries such as Egypt and Jordan also receive massive amounts of American foreign aid. Unlike with Israel, where one can tangibly see many benefits to this foreign aid, I'd say it's far tougher to justify the billions we spend on those two Middle Eastern countries given the paltry returns. The best that can be said for such money is that we're "buying peace" between the governments--as the populations of much of the Middle East would likely still elect to eliminate Israel if their governments ever mobilized that political will again. In other words: it's not a lasting peace.

[AmericaFirst]

We get it already, you hate the Jews. Interesting side note is that the Jewish vote went almost 70% to President Obama.



Thanks for helping me make my point.

[AmericaFirst]

True. By most objective analyses, Israel supports American interests across the spectrum. They believe in democracy, capitalism, basic human rights as a tenet of social governance--and certainly, Israel "buys American" on a lot of products too.



That is a valid question.

As a corollary to that question: it's undoubted that countries such as Egypt and Jordan also receive massive amounts of American foreign aid. Unlike with Israel, where one can tangibly see many benefits to this foreign aid, I'd say it's far tougher to justify the billions we spend on those two Middle Eastern countries given the paltry returns. The best that can be said for such money is that we're "buying peace" between the governments--as the populations of much of the Middle East would likely still elect to eliminate Israel if their governments ever mobilized that political will again. In other words: it's not a lasting peace.



I think you're missing the point. Their lobby groups act as foreign agents, more loyal to Israel than America. Pushing through bills that could prevent our politicians from negotiating with Iran means war is the only thing that can come of that. Furthermore, AIPAC has gone beyond that to the point of committing espionage against us. What other foreign lobby group has done that? They could care less if it's good for America or not. Did you not watch that ad they ran on Hagel? How because he doesn't have "all options on the table" (meaning war) it means he shouldn't be given that position of power?


If Israel had no nuclear weapons and had signed a nuclear treaty like the NPT, this wouldn't be a problem. As it is, they have nukes, refuse to sign a treaty, and also have never allowed UN inspection of their facilities.



But we expect Iran to allow all of that or we'll label them a "terrorist state."

[Burke]

The left soured on Israel when the Israelis became an advanced, powerful nation rather than a bunch of down and out nobodies.

People who, to them, are to be envied, hated, exploited, and destroyed.

Just like traditional, successful Americans.

[AmericaFirst]

The left soured on Israel when the Israelis became an advanced, powerful nation rather than a bunch of down and out nobodies.

People who, to them, are to be envied, hated, exploited, and destroyed.

Just like traditional, successful Americans.



Using that logic, similar to the right on Iran, right? The Iranians decided they no longer wanted to have a puppet government (The Shah) in power and since that time, they are now the #2 power in the Middle East behind Israel and only because Israel has nuclear weapons. Otherwise, due to the size of the country, they would be #1.

[gatorev12]

I think you're missing the point. Their lobby groups act as foreign agents, more loyal to Israel than America. Pushing through bills that could prevent our politicians from negotiating with Iran means war is the only thing that can come of that. Furthermore, AIPAC has gone beyond that to the point of committing espionage against us. What other foreign lobby group has done that? They could care less if it's good for America or not. Did you not watch that ad they ran on Hagel? How because he doesn't have "all options on the table" (meaning war) it means he shouldn't be given that position of power?

If Israel had no nuclear weapons and had signed a nuclear treaty like the NPT, this wouldn't be a problem. As it is, they have nukes, refuse to sign a treaty, and also have never allowed UN inspection of their facilities.

But we expect Iran to allow all of that or we'll label them a "terrorist state."


Afternoon doost. :wave:

No, I get what your point is. It's pretty transparent, though you claim otherwise. Question: are you on some type of quota from your Iranian friends that mandates you post a certain amount of anti-Israeli propaganda every month? Interested if it's more of a "pay per post" quota or a flat fee arrangement for their marketing.

[gatorev12]

Using that logic, similar to the right on Iran, right? The Iranians decided they no longer wanted to have a puppet government (The Shah) in power and since that time, they are now the #2 power in the Middle East behind Israel and only because Israel has nuclear weapons. Otherwise, due to the size of the country, they would be #1.

Actually, something I agree with for a change.

Surprised you'd admit this, really, after spending many previous threads arguing how Iran's leaders don't routinely pine for an Islamic caliphate under Persian rule. Iran sees themselves as the natural leader for Central Asia and the Arabian peninsula. After all, it was theirs for centuries and they want to gain it back.

What better way to achieve regional hegemony than by knocking off the #1 (and most hated) player in the region?

[AmericaFirst]

Actually, something I agree with for a change.

Surprised you'd admit this, really, after spending many previous threads arguing how Iran's leaders don't routinely pine for an Islamic caliphate under Persian rule. Iran sees themselves as the natural leader for Central Asia and the Arabian peninsula. After all, it was theirs for centuries and they want to gain it back.

What better way to achieve regional hegemony than by knocking off the #1 (and most hated) player in the region?



As they should. They have one of the oldest civilizations in the world and the top military in the region outside of Israel. With that said, they've actually signed a nuclear treaty and hold conferences to get nuclear weapons out of the region. Israel? They obviously don't want that. They believe they are above the law.

[AmericaFirst]

Afternoon doost. :wave:

No, I get what your point is. It's pretty transparent, though you claim otherwise. Question: are you on some type of quota from your Iranian friends that mandates you post a certain amount of anti-Israeli propaganda every month? Interested if it's more of a "pay per post" quota or a flat fee arrangement for their marketing.



Facts aren't propaganda. Only the Israel defenders spout the propaganda. You can't defend a country that has nuclear weapons but refuses to declare them, refuses to sign a nuclear treaty, and believes they're above international law. That can't be defended. But Israel is an example that even a country can be bought. Otherwise, the USA wouldn't be defending such disgusting actions since they all violate UN law.

[Row6]

True. By most objective analyses, Israel supports American interests across the spectrum. They believe in democracy, capitalism, basic human rights as a tenet of social governance--and certainly, Israel "buys American" on a lot of products too.



That is a valid question.

As a corollary to that question: it's undoubted that countries such as Egypt and Jordan also receive massive amounts of American foreign aid. Unlike with Israel, where one can tangibly see many benefits to this foreign aid, I'd say it's far tougher to justify the billions we spend on those two Middle Eastern countries given the paltry returns. The best that can be said for such money is that we're "buying peace" between the governments--as the populations of much of the Middle East would likely still elect to eliminate Israel if their governments ever mobilized that political will again. In other words: it's not a lasting peace.

The money we spend on Egypt is a direct result of peace accords guaranteeing the security of Israel - it's protection money. I say that without criticizing the policy, but facing facts.

[ajoseph]

Awesome!! Our resident Iranian caliph who ironically refers to himself as "AmericaFirst" is back in action, spitting out his racist, anti-Israel propaganda. A reader's delight ...

[ajoseph]

Facts aren't propaganda. Only the Israel defenders spout the propaganda. You can't defend a country that has nuclear weapons but refuses to declare them, refuses to sign a nuclear treaty, and believes they're above international law. That can't be defended. But Israel is an example that even a country can be bought. Otherwise, the USA wouldn't be defending such disgusting actions since they all violate UN law.

When comments such as these are made, there is absolutely no room left for any semblance of credibility. The posts by the OP, if not for their blatant racism and dangerous vitriol, would simply be comic relief. Rarely does one come across with someone with such a patent agenda as the OP. I'll give it to him, he really does work hard to earn the money his Iranian puppeteers must give him.

[gatorev12]

As they should. They have one of the oldest civilizations in the world and the top military in the region outside of Israel. With that said, they've actually signed a nuclear treaty and hold conferences to get nuclear weapons out of the region. Israel? They obviously don't want that. They believe they are above the law.

The Iranian military is impressive on the ground, sure--but after that, there isn't much to write home about.

Their air force is a joke and the nearly everyone else in the region would destroy them with minimal effort. Same with their navy.

The Saudis are the second-best military in the region, followed closely by the UAE, and Qatar. Kuwait is also decent--as is Bahrain.

Any military professional will tell you sheer numbers don't exactly matter if you lack modern equipment and training. After the first Gulf War, most of the Arab countries realized that having a large military is inefficient and essentially useless unless you have quality training and equipment.

[AzCatFan]

Facts aren't propaganda. Only the Israel defenders spout the propaganda. You can't defend a country that has nuclear weapons but refuses to declare them, refuses to sign a nuclear treaty, and believes they're above international law. That can't be defended. But Israel is an example that even a country can be bought. Otherwise, the USA wouldn't be defending such disgusting actions since they all violate UN law.

Your facts are other people's propaganda, just as their facts are your propaganda. There are three sides to every story, and you, AF, only ever spew the anti-Israeli side. Certainly the Israelis are far from lily-white, but if the Arabs wanted peace, why did they instead of accepting the Clinton accords, launch the Second Infidata? Is it because the Arabs in the region will only accept peace on their own terms, meaning Israel no longer exists?

There have been plenty of opportunities for peace in the region, but as the saying goes, "The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss and opportunity." You can see why, throughout the past 60 years or so, the Israelis have become more and more suspect of their neighbors. Again, Israel itself shoulders plenty of blame, but the Palestinians and their supporters are far from angels too. So far from angels that in this conflict, yes, I would say the Palestinians are the "evil" ones. Maybe if the Palestinians stopped firing rockets into Israel (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/15/us-palestinians-israel-hamas-idUSBRE8AD0WP20121115)...Let's just say, I won't hold my breath.

[ajoseph]

Your facts are other people's propaganda, just as their facts are your propaganda. There are three sides to every story, and you, AF, only ever spew the anti-Israeli side. Certainly the Israelis are far from lily-white, but if the Arabs wanted peace, why did they instead of accepting the Clinton accords, launch the Second Infidata? Is it because the Arabs in the region will only accept peace on their own terms, meaning Israel no longer exists?

There have been plenty of opportunities for peace in the region, but as the saying goes, "The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss and opportunity." You can see why, throughout the past 60 years or so, the Israelis have become more and more suspect of their neighbors. Again, Israel itself shoulders plenty of blame, but the Palestinians and their supporters are far from angels too. So far from angels that in this conflict, yes, I would say the Palestinians are the "evil" ones. Maybe if the Palestinians stopped firing rockets into Israel (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/15/us-palestinians-israel-hamas-idUSBRE8AD0WP20121115)...Let's just say, I won't hold my breath.

Wow!! A post by someone without an agenda. And look how sensible the words read. Logical, objective, and unbiased on any level. Thank you for bringing reason to a thread that was started to fuel hate.

[gatorev12]

Facts aren't propaganda. Only the Israel defenders spout the propaganda. You can't defend a country that has nuclear weapons but refuses to declare them, refuses to sign a nuclear treaty, and believes they're above international law. That can't be defended. But Israel is an example that even a country can be bought. Otherwise, the USA wouldn't be defending such disgusting actions since they all violate UN law.

It's a fact that Iran is the largest state-supporter of terrorism and has actively given terrorist organizations money and weapons for decades to attack Israel, the US, the Saudis, and many others. For as much as you complain about Israeli "false flag" operations--there's ample evidence of attacks that had Iranian fingerprints all over them. Including a recent attempt to assassinate the Saudi ambassador in the US.

It's a fact the Iranians claim their program is for "peaceful purposes, solely for civilian use"--yet bury their facilities underground, refuse international access to their facilities, and refuse international efforts to give them non-weaponized nuclear reactors that they *could* use for nuclear power if that was their actual desire.

But continue your one-man crusade against the Jews and go on with your illusions of Iran as a benevolent country.

[oragator1]

I can't speak for anyone else, but of course we should generally be allied with Israel, no problem there. There are a democracy, what amounts to a minority state with lots of ties to the US.
the problem is that they have a disproportionate power over our government, such that to even dare criticize them for anything is to risk your job as a politician. This means we as a country are forced into allowing things that harm our self interest abroad, all for a country that is wholly dependent on us for their survival. Somehow they are the ones with the power in a relationship where in theory we hold 99% of it, but in reality they hold the strings. There isn't another country on earth that hold the power here that they do, and it's detrimental to us as a country as well as being counter to our interests in many cases. Israel building more settlements will be a recruitment tool for our enemies, but yet we say next to nothing. Israel choking off Palestinian territories again will be a recruitment tool against us, but we say nothing. Lack of progress in talks harms us, but we don't put any pressure on them. Lack of progress in peace means we have to continue to spend billions propping them up, and literally trillion on protecting ourselves in part because of their flashpoint. Americans around the world die because of these things, but when Hagel and others have the temerity to point it out, it's they who have to apologize. It's insane.

[Lawdog88]

Wow!! A post by someone without an agenda. And look how sensible the words read. Logical, objective, and unbiased on any level. Thank you for bringing reason to a thread that was started to fuel hate.


We all have, at minimum, a predisposition on these kinds of issues, if not an outright prejudgment and / or agenda.

Not all of them are bad, either.

Unabashed Jew-hating is one that is.

[AmericaFirst]

Wow!! A post by someone without an agenda. And look how sensible the words read. Logical, objective, and unbiased on any level. Thank you for bringing reason to a thread that was started to fuel hate.



LOL you're agreeing with someone who believes what you believe. Hilarious. I gave you the facts on Israeli terrorism, how they refuse to declare their nuclear weapons, and how they refuse to sign a treaty. FACTS

[AzCatFan]

LOL you're agreeing with someone who believes what you believe. Hilarious. I gave you the facts on Israeli terrorism, how they refuse to declare their nuclear weapons, and how they refuse to sign a treaty. FACTS

And the Palestinians refuse to sign treaties too and act in their own self interest. So again I ask, why did the Palestinians launch the Second Infidata instead of accepting Clinton's pace accords?

[cocodrilo]

It's not all Bush's fault, I blame it all on Moses. He led the Israelites out of Egypt to the wrong place. It didn't even have any oil. But naturally that's where Israel had to locate again when the new state was established, in the worst possible place, surrounded by Muslims who hate Jews almost as much as they hate women. (The Muslims' big problem is that they can do without Jews but can't survive without women.)

What Moses should have done was load his people on boats and sail for some New World. If he had done that, America wouldn't be owned by Israel today. America would be Israel.

[AmericaFirst]

Your facts are other people's propaganda, just as their facts are your propaganda. There are three sides to every story, and you, AF, only ever spew the anti-Israeli side. Certainly the Israelis are far from lily-white, but if the Arabs wanted peace, why did they instead of accepting the Clinton accords, launch the Second Infidata? Is it because the Arabs in the region will only accept peace on their own terms, meaning Israel no longer exists?

There have been plenty of opportunities for peace in the region, but as the saying goes, "The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss and opportunity." You can see why, throughout the past 60 years or so, the Israelis have become more and more suspect of their neighbors. Again, Israel itself shoulders plenty of blame, but the Palestinians and their supporters are far from angels too. So far from angels that in this conflict, yes, I would say the Palestinians are the "evil" ones. Maybe if the Palestinians stopped firing rockets into Israel (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/15/us-palestinians-israel-hamas-idUSBRE8AD0WP20121115)...Let's just say, I won't hold my breath.



The Palestinians have been oppressed for decades now. The wikileaks documents showed that the Israeli government has destroyed their water supply, keep the economy on the brink of collapse, and also continue building thousands of illegal settlements even after the UN named Palestine a "non-member state."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/31/un-panel-israeli-settlements-illegal_n_2589394.html

They've been poking the Arabs in the eye and then whine when they fight back. Furthermore, those "rockets" they fire at Israel are built with fertilizer. They can't even be controlled. The Israelis then drop phosphorus bombs on them IE: a chemical weapon.

The only country that wants war in the Middle East is Israel.


If Israel wanted peace, the wikileaks documents wouldn't have shown the above facts.

If Israel wanted peace, they would want to get nuclear weapons out of that region.

If Israel wanted peace, they would stop building illegal settlements.

If Israel wanted peace, they would at least sign a nuclear treaty.


As it is, our politicians look the other way at the above facts while hammering Iran for signing a treaty and following UN law.


http://www.anarchorob.com/.a/6a0120a8795c4a970b0162fbf7975f970d-800wi

[AzCatFan]

Still haven't answered my question about the Clinton accords. I know you are avoiding it because you don't like the answer. Truth is, both sides have been fighting for generations. When Israel first became a nation, Golda Meir nailed it when she said, "There will be peace when the Arab's start loving their children more then they hate Israeli children." Unfortunately, that never happened, and now, we have both sides hating more than loving.

I believe the Clinton accords were the last, best chance for a lasting peace for the next 50 or so years. The Israelis were all on-board, but at the last minute, the Palestinians launched another attack instead. Sorry, but until you can admit the Arabs are at least equally complicit (more in my opinion), then what you spew is little more than hate speech. So again, please answer the question why the Palestinian response to the Clinton accords was more violence?

[AmericaFirst]

Still haven't answered my question about the Clinton accords. I know you are avoiding it because you don't like the answer. Truth is, both sides have been fighting for generations. When Israel first became a nation, Golda Meir nailed it when she said, "There will be peace when the Arab's start loving their children more then they hate Israeli children." Unfortunately, that never happened, and now, we have both sides hating more than loving.

I believe the Clinton accords were the last, best chance for a lasting peace for the next 50 or so years. The Israelis were all on-board, but at the last minute, the Palestinians launched another attack instead. Sorry, but until you can admit the Arabs are at least equally complicit (more in my opinion), then what you spew is little more than hate speech. So again, please answer the question why the Palestinian response to the Clinton accords was more violence?



The Palestinian side to that story is that the Clinton accords were worthless since a short period of time later the Israelis continued building more illegal settlements.


Answer this - why won't Israel sign a nuclear treaty (like Iran has) or at least declare that they have nuclear weapons? How can any country say they want peace when they won't do that? Do you believe Israel is above international law?

[AzCatFan]

The Palestinian side to that story is that the Clinton accords were worthless since a short period of time later the Israelis continued building more illegal settlements.


Answer this - why won't Israel sign a nuclear treaty (like Iran has) or at least declare that they have nuclear weapons? How can any country say they want peace when they won't do that?

The Palestinian side to the story is bull and you know it. The Israelis started building more illegal settlements because the Palestinians both loudly and with actions, announced the second Infidata. The Clinton accords, though agreed to by Arafat, were never accepted by the Palestinians, and have lead to the split between the Palestinian Liberation Authority and Hamas. Basically, the hard-liners saw Arafat as weak and giving in to Israel, and in response, took power and decided to launch more attacks on Israel.

As to why Israel has never signed a nuclear treaty? They don't trust anyone, and with enemies on three sides, wants to keep everyone guessing. Personally, with the stockpile I believe the Israelis have, I'd like to see them open up more and sign a treaty as a show of good faith. But again, I also think the next path to real peace isn't going to happen for a few generations. Of course, had the Palestinians accepted Clinton's proposals, perhaps there would have been a chance at peace, and Israel would have either by now, signed a nuclear treaty, or be on that path. But again, the Palestinians missed their opportunity.

Last but not least, history shows treaties are rarely worth the paper they are printed on. Just ask Native Americans, or what the Germans thought of the Treaty of Versailles after WW I. So ask yourself this, what do the Israelis have to gain by attempting another peace treaty with part(ies) that the last time they went through the process, lead to the other parties attacking Israel again?

[gatorev12]

Your facts are other people's propaganda, just as their facts are your propaganda. There are three sides to every story, and you, AF, only ever spew the anti-Israeli side. Certainly the Israelis are far from lily-white, but if the Arabs wanted peace, why did they instead of accepting the Clinton accords, launch the Second Infidata? Is it because the Arabs in the region will only accept peace on their own terms, meaning Israel no longer exists?

There have been plenty of opportunities for peace in the region, but as the saying goes, "The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss and opportunity." You can see why, throughout the past 60 years or so, the Israelis have become more and more suspect of their neighbors. Again, Israel itself shoulders plenty of blame, but the Palestinians and their supporters are far from angels too. So far from angels that in this conflict, yes, I would say the Palestinians are the "evil" ones. Maybe if the Palestinians stopped firing rockets into Israel (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/15/us-palestinians-israel-hamas-idUSBRE8AD0WP20121115)...Let's just say, I won't hold my breath.

+1.

Israel is certainly far from lily-white in their handling of international or domestic affairs...but every time I think to apportion "blame" (if you want to call it that), their actions are far more reasonable or understandable when you consider what the Palestinians and/or Arabs have done.

I think the main thing Israel needs to stop doing is so aggressively building settlements in the West Bank. It only complicates the peace process and makes it harder for both parties to arrive at an accord in the future.

BUT...then again, when you look at the "why" and "when" Israel started their aggressive settlement expansion, the root of it dealt with Palestinian unreasonableness in the first place. Israel offered them 90% of the West Bank...and that was rejected. Afterwards, I think they adopted the mentality of: "screw them...if they're going to be unreasonable, might as well do what we want since they're going to reject anything we put forth in front of them."

[AmericaFirst]

The Palestinian side to the story is bull and you know it. The Israelis started building more illegal settlements because the Palestinians both loudly and with actions, announced the second Infidata. The Clinton accords, though agreed to by Arafat, were never accepted by the Palestinians, and have lead to the split between the Palestinian Liberation Authority and Hamas. Basically, the hard-liners saw Arafat as weak and giving in to Israel, and in response, took power and decided to launch more attacks on Israel.

As to why Israel has never signed a nuclear treaty? They don't trust anyone, and with enemies on three sides, wants to keep everyone guessing. Personally, with the stockpile I believe the Israelis have, I'd like to see them open up more and sign a treaty as a show of good faith. But again, I also think the next path to real peace isn't going to happen for a few generations. Of course, had the Palestinians accepted Clinton's proposals, perhaps there would have been a chance at peace, and Israel would have either by now, signed a nuclear treaty, or be on that path. But again, the Palestinians missed their opportunity.

Last but not least, history shows treaties are rarely worth the paper they are printed on. Just ask Native Americans, or what the Germans thought of the Treaty of Versailles after WW I. So ask yourself this, what do the Israelis have to gain by attempting another peace treaty with part(ies) that the last time they went through the process, lead to the other parties attacking Israel again?


But yet Iran should be invaded for "supposedly" trying to build a nuclear weapon when they've signed a nuclear treaty and are following UN law? You realize that Israel is the ultimate hypocrite for talking about war knowing that they refuse to follow any international law whatsoever, right?



So, Israel gets to follow certain "rules" when they've done nothing but violate international law while Iran can be invaded while following international law and having signed a peace treaty.



Makes perfect sense.

[ajoseph]

LOL you're agreeing with someone who believes what you believe. Hilarious. I gave you the facts on Israeli terrorism, how they refuse to declare their nuclear weapons, and how they refuse to sign a treaty. FACTS

I don't need to agree with a post to understand the words are conceived with reason and executed with objective logic. Heck, I have no problem with people lacing their posts with opinion; indeed, I expect that most of the posts would be opinion-based. It is posts like yours when you endeavor to disguise your opinion as fact that I am forced to respond.

You don't have any clue as to what the word "fact" actually means. You vomit false propaganda, and then repeat the same lies over and over and over again, until someone takes your lies as the truth. Once a word is written enough times, people actually start to believe it. That is why your propaganda cannot go unchecked, even on sites such as this.

[AmericaFirst]

I don't need to agree with a post to understand the words are conceived with reason and executed with objective logic. Heck, I have no problem with people lacing their posts with opinion; indeed, I expect that most of the posts would be opinion-based. It is posts like yours when you endeavor to disguise your opinion as fact that I am forced to respond.

You don't have any clue as to what the word "fact" actually means. You vomit false propaganda, and then repeat the same lies over and over and over again, until someone takes your lies as the truth. Once a word is written enough times, people actually start to believe it. That is why your propaganda cannot go unchecked, even on sites such as this.


Israel refuses to declare nuclear weapons:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Israel

Israel refuses to sign the NPT after being told to by the UN:

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Editorials/Article.aspx?id=294633




Facts. Your Israeli propaganda is just that. Which country has committed the most UN violations in the world? Israel.

[ajoseph]

We all have, at minimum, a predisposition on these kinds of issues, if not an outright prejudgment and / or agenda.

Not all of them are bad, either.

Unabashed Jew-hating is one that is.

I totally agree with this. I wouldn't expect all people to believe everything that Israel does is "right." I know I am highly critical of certain policies, particularly including the continuation of the provocative building of settlements.

On the other hand, imagine the pressure that the World could place on Israel if the Palestinians and Israel's neighbors actually behaved in a peaceful manner. Imagine the Israeli public's pressure on its own government to secure lasting peace, if the public was not faced with the constant threat to their survival from cross border bombings and intra-border suicide attacks. For once, give Israel a legitmate reason to stop building their settlements. Give Israel the bona fide hope for peace, and watch how that nation responds.

[ChartsandGrafs]

Israel is an outpost of civilization...

LOL, Israel is a terrorist-apartheid state, and it's probably the closest thing we have to a Nazi Germany anywhere in the world today.

[gatorev12]

The Palestinian side to that story is that the Clinton accords were worthless since a short period of time later the Israelis continued building more illegal settlements.


[QUOTE]Answer this - why won't Israel sign a nuclear treaty (like Iran has) or at least declare that they have nuclear weapons?


That's been answered many times--but, typically, you ignore the answers.

Signing the nuclear treaty means acknowledging how many nuclear weapons you have and what your capacity is (ie: how many warheads are located on ships, nuclear missiles, bombs, etc). The "fine print" of those nuclear treaties, as it were.

Israel is the smallest nuclear-armed country and doesn't exactly have vast swaths of land in which to hide their nuclear arsenal. Since those weapons solely exist for security/deterrence purposes, telling the world how many weapons they have and what they are also allows an enemy to have a decent idea of where they are (since, again, there's a finite amount of land in the country and a definite number of military bases in which to store and secure sophisticated nuclear weapons) and how many nuclear weapons would be needed to destroy 50% (or more) of Israel's nuclear arsenal.

If you remember the Cold War concept of MADD--it was predicated on the fact that a "first strike" was impossible...you could never destroy enough of a nation's nuclear arsenal without suffering impossibly high damage in a counter-strike.

With Israel, MADD doesn't exist. It's too small of a country and the only deterrent value in having nukes is to keep enemies/adversaries guessing on exactly how large their arsenal is.

I'll give a pretty simple analogy here that will probably be lost on you--but others might find it useful:

Say nuclear weapons (ICBMs, sub or air-launched bombs/cruise missiles) are the equivalent of guns (assault rifles, shotguns, and pistols). Only a few nations actually have "guns" for protection...everyone else has knives or clubs. The US, Russia, China, India would basically be like large plantation or ranch owners. Lots of land to set up defensive arrangements to use their multiple "guns" against potential adversaries. France and Britain would be smaller-scale landowners with a couple of acres or so...but still plenty of room to hide multiple "guns" though.

Israel would be like having a 2-room condo. Forcing them to declare how many guns they have and what they are (rifles, shotguns, pistols), would allow a potential adversary to figure out to a reasonable probability which weapons are located where. It's impractical to use an assault rifle in the kitchen (too confined an area)--you'd probably store a pistol in there. The heavier-duty stuff (shotguns and assault rifles) would more likely be in the bedrooms.

Kinda wrecks the deterrent/security value. Which is the whole point of why Iran makes this so much of an issue and why the rest of the UN Security Council considers this a non-issue.


How can any country say they want peace when they won't do that? Do you believe Israel is above international law?


Well, since you so deftly ignored my previous question--why does Iran claim to have a nuclear program "for peaceful, non-military purposes" when:

1.) the nuclear facilities are located underground and on military installations

2.) international diplomats have offered Iran nuclear reactors for power generation..whereby other countries would provide enriched uranium, but it'd be for civilian use...and they declined

Certainly seems like a reasonable compromise--IF Iran was actually wanting nuclear reactors for peaceful purposes. Not that Sacha Baron Cohen's recent stuff has been funny--but this particular scene kinda sums it up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTW5k6yX4lQ

[ChartsandGrafs]

If the United States and Israel can have nuclear weapons, I don't see why Iran can't. In fact, the aggressive warmongering of the United States and Israel provides the perfect justification for Iran to develop nuclear weapons.

[Lawdog88]

Biggest joke heard lately:

Iran's centrifuges will produce nuclear material that will be used only for peaceful purposes.

[ArtVandelay]

LOL, Israel is a terrorist-apartheid state, and it's probably the closest thing we have to a Nazi Germany anywhere in the world today.

You might be the most ignorant moron I have ever seen on here. Ban me if you like, but people like you shouldn't be allowed to roam the streets.

[ArtVandelay]

Awesome!! Our resident Iranian caliph who ironically refers to himself as "AmericaFirst" is back in action, spitting out his racist, anti-Israel propaganda. A reader's delight ...

AmericaFirst can thank ChartsandGraphs. He is now the 2nd biggest racist/terrorist lover on here...

[ChartsandGrafs]

You might be the most ignorant moron I have ever seen on here. Ban me if you like, but people like you shouldn't be allowed to roam the streets.

LOL.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b138/w_r_ranch/BarkingMoonbat.jpg

[AmericaFirst]

AmericaFirst can thank ChartsandGraphs. He is now the 2nd biggest racist/terrorist lover on here...



According to The Institute For Middle East Understanding, no country knows racism and how to carry out terrorist acts better than Israel. Jews in Iran are treated better than Palestinians in Israel.


Facts. Being an Israel supporter, that makes you the "racist/terrorist lover" since you support the despicable acts below. And you call yourself a liberal? What kind of liberal supports institutionalized discrimination that is solely based on ethnicity? I guess in your mind it's ok for America to be extremely liberal these days but it's also ok for Israel to be one of the only countries in the world to still discriminate based on race. Hypocrite much?


Institutionalized discrimination

There are more than 30 laws that discriminate against Palestinian citizens of Israel. directly or indirectly, based solely on their ethnicity, rendering them second or third class citizens in their own homeland.

93% of the land in Israel is owned either by the state or by quasi-governmental agencies, such as the Jewish National Fund, that discriminate against non-Jews. Palestinian citizens of Israel face significant legal obstacles in gaining access to this land for agriculture, residence, or commercial development.

More than seventy Palestinian villages and communities in Israel, some of which pre-date the establishment of the state, are unrecognized by the government, receive no services, and are not even listed on official maps. Many other towns with a majority Palestinian population lack basic services and receive significantly less government funding than do majority-Jewish towns.

Since Israel's founding in 1948, more than 600 Jewish municipalities have been established, while not a single new Arab town or community has been recognized by the state.

Israeli government resources are disproportionately directed to Jews and not to Arabs, one factor in causing the Palestinians of Israel to suffer the lowest living standards in Israeli society by all socio-economic indicators.


And there's lots more as well.

http://imeu.net/news/article0021536.shtml

[ChartsandGrafs]

Most Americans are hopelessly clueless about the real history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. They only get the Zionist side of the story, courtesy of the Jewish controlled media in the U.S.

This documentary does a pretty decent job of explaining the conflict in a more balanced manner:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufLAitMq3zI