Why is Florida better without Bradley Beal and Erving Walker?

[InstiGATOR1]

An interesting and around here very controversial discussion has popped up around the internet. Here is the first paragraph:

Our friends at Our Two Bits came through with the most provocative Gators read of the week, with Paul Sjoberg penning a piece asking whether Florida's better without Bradley Beal. It's an interesting thesis, but I found it sort of poorly-supported, and I don't agree with the argument as much as I do the thesis.

and here is the link:

http://www.alligatorarmy.com/2013/1/26/3918620/florida-basketball-2013-bradley-beal-erving-walker

[oneatatime]

I don't have the stats to prove it, but Walker got many of his points at the foul line at the end of in close games.

Scottie hasn't had to face that pressure yet and I hope he can come through

[gogators73]

IMO it is efficiency.

Beal >> Rosario. But Rosario has gotten MUCH better at playing within the offense. He still makes questionable decisions but he is much better at keeping us in a rhythm. I would also venture to say Rosario has drawn more charges than anyone on the team.

Wilbekin > Walker. I love Erv and his effort but right now about the only thing I'd take him over SW with is breaking a press. Wilbekin is a VERY efficient scorer. Rarely takes bad shots and is a MUCH better defender than Walker (no fault of Erv, just height helps).

Last year Beal and Walker took big shots but they weren't always the shots that we've been getting this year. We still take a ton of 3's but this year they feel way more within the offense. Every now and then KB launches one or Rosario launches one I'd like to have back but I'd almost venture to say we've cut our bad shots in half. And our defense is just so much better without Walker out there. Great on ball defender but just too easy to shoot over him.

[tebowharvin]

According to efficiency ratings, yes. That is not saying Beal is not the best player if the past two years though.

[tegator80]

I am going with the conventional thinking: three seniors and two juniors of pretty good quality are a whole lot better than a younger team of somewhat similar skills. Kentucky of last year is going to be VERY hard to replicate in the future. Add in Casey continuing to let his game evolve and we have a team that just doesn't exist anymore (except for the Butlers of the world and then rarely).

[rserina]

Interesting discussion. The initial article--and in many respects the response--both follow from the wrong premise: it isn't so much the replacements for Beal and/or Walker, but the improvement of the other 6-7 guys in the rotation. Young and Murphy were both new starters last season playing by far their most minutes and they struggled sustaining intensity and adapting their games as the year progressed. This year, each has made massive improvements, whether it is Young's energy level, defensive focus, and improved low post moves or Murphy's pick and roll defense, ability to post up by putting the ball on the ground, or corner three.

The same is true for Yeguete. Donovan said he came in out of shape (some goofy comment about eating too many French pastries) and when he did work himself into shape he got hit by injuries. This year, he came in ripped and much stronger and has added that little dribble drive move from the top of the key as well as the jumper he didn't use at all his first two seasons. When you have two new starters in the post, and their only backup is new to the rotation, you can expect to struggle some unless they are all elite caliber players.

In general, if I had to make an argument it would be one of increased experience and familiarity. The same thing happened in 2010-11. We were a ten seed that was a miracle three against NC State from possibly not making the tournament and we transformed into league championship winning Elite Eight team because each of those kids (three new starters, another at a new position) all learned from their experiences, improved their games, and developed better chemistry. The same thing happened this year to a team that returned seven of its top nine guys from a year ago, six of whom had double digit minutes on the year. The 2010 class may very well go down as the most successful in school history after the 2004 group.

I don't mean to discount the fact that Wilbekin is a significantly better defender than Walker and a more "natural" point guard (whatever that actual means, but I grant it nonetheless), or that the offensive pieces fit together better than they did a year ago when we were heavy on scoring-minded guards. But take away Walker and Beal from last year's team and we don't even make the tournament, let alone improve on their success. Take away one even one of them and we are significantly worse still.

[rserina]

...and we have a team that just doesn't exist anymore (except for the Butlers of the world and then rarely).
I think this is actually a great point and one I think about often. Even under the previous rules, it was hard to hold a team like ours together too long if you recruited a high level. Then we would go against an ostensibly less talented team with far more experience that played smarter, harder, and with more chemistry, especially in the tournament, and often lose. Kids age 18-22 who have the benefit of conditioning staffs, collegiate-level coaching, film and workout amenities, extra time to practice their games without seven hours of class per day, plus part time jobs, etc., stand to improve markedly with each year on campus.

There is no turning back the clock to a world in which such experience and continuity are prevalent, but we are fortunate enough to have a team with it right now and we are seeing the benefits. Just another reason not to too pessimistic about the lack of playing time for our current freshman or their perceived deficiencies at this stage of their careers.

[born2beagator]

IMHO, its simple: Maturity

[ApexNC]

IMHO, its simple: Maturity

Agreed. Also, Murph has gone from greatly improved to an all-conference type of performer.

[ThePlayer]

Simple math...addition by subtraction.
And mostly because Wilbekin has developed into an attacking, efficient distributor of the basketball.
Everyone around Scottie has now picked up their game..like you would expect from the son-of-a-coach.

Throw in a more confident Will Yeguete...and voila...instant karma!!!

[SeabeeGator]

Although they are playing lights out, we really won't know if this team is better than last year's until after the elite eight games are played.

[gatordee]

I am sure this team would be even better with the two playing this year along with the added year behind them in BD's system. But you cannot beat continuity and this team continues to gel.

[GatorLurker]

How was Georgia better the year after Dominque Wilkens left? They went to the Final Four being led by Vern Fleming. Now, who is better: Wilkens or Fleming?

[UFish]

The guys still here have improved. Patric Young, who played hurt a lot last year, is blocking way more shots, staying out of foul trouble, and commanding the defense from the middle as well as any big man we've had the last several years. Rosario and Murphy have improved defensively and Mike, who Donovan himself said contributed very little to our team last year, has played a huge role filling the scoring void Beal left behind. All that and Yeguete is healthy.

As much as I loved Erving Walker, there's only so much of a defensive liability you can't be when you're playing DI basketball at 5'8, 170. We went from having a seriously limited defender starting in the backcourt and playing 30+ minutes a game to having an elite defender starting in the backcourt and playing 30+ minutes a game.

[InstiGATOR1]

I don't have the stats to prove it, but Walker got many of his points at the foul line at the end of in close games.

Scottie hasn't had to face that pressure yet and I hope he can come through

This is a big question mark for me too. It also is to my why Wilbekin is not scoring in double figures yet. But the bigger worry is will he knock down those FTs in crunch time at a high enough rate.

[madgator]

This is a big question mark for me too. It also is to my why Wilbekin is not scoring in double figures yet. But the bigger worry is will he knock down those FTs in crunch time at a high enough rate.


well, big part of that is that we really haven't had too many close games. so the point is moot if you are winning by double digits every game. play the game with outstanding defense and a controlled/efficient offense and you will win games handidly.

a big complaint I had with our previous backcourt is that their decision making problems led to a lot of momentum killers. Quick 3s that many said would be "dagger shots" which turned into transition baskets for the other team. 7 point leads would immidiately become 5 point leads right down to 3.

so many games so often in the previous two seasons were way closer than they ever needed to be. A point I made regularly. zero sum in effect.

and I am becoming more and more convinced as this season progresses that we were the best team in the country two years ago.

why Billy let it go on is one of the great mysteries to me.

that and why Sam Robey didn't start and why Mike Gillissee had to wait until his senior year to be the man.

certain things are just so obvious and coaches for whatever reason can't see it.

they may be amazingly qualified geniuses at their craft, but they just don't see it

[corpgator]

There are two factors at play here.

First, Walker was a net minus. Many of you don't want to admit it, but his inappropriate shot selection, boneheaded turnovers, and small stature outweighed his sometimes clutch shot-making and assists. On defense, his size basically ruled out ever using a zone. Look how effective the zone has been this year. Yes, I'm going to get railed against here, but that's because very few actually give the proper weight to defense. It is half the game after all.

Second, replacing a star player doesn't require another star player. It only requires an average player plus a minor increase from every other player.

So that's what is at play here: a net positive from losing walker, an average (or better) replacement for Beal, plus improvement from everyone else.

[Jonas]

If Walker was a net minus, he wouldn't have played. PERIOD. Billy isn't an idiot. He chose to start Walker for 3 years. It amazes me that people will try and argue he was a detrement to our team. I'm fine with point pointing out his faults (and he had quite a few), but to call him a net minus player is wrong.

[cstgator]

Not so much that he was a minus as it is 2013 Wilbekin is much better than Erving Walker in any of his Gator seasons.

[corpgator]

I am not saying that Walker was a net minus vs any other option. As in you couldn't stick a replacement level player in there and get better results. But bring back Walker this year, and he is a net minus for this team. He was last year as well. It's just a basic human vice that we value offense more than defense.

[Jonas]

Eh, I don't think he was defensive liability. Donovan has not played players if they were defensive liabilities (Rosario last year, Prather when he would turn the ball over every minute). Erving was a pesky defender that would come up with a decent amount of steals and could deny his player the ball. I'm not saying he was a great defensive player, but he did enough to still be a "net positive" given his offensive ability.

[gatormann]

Beal may be an NBA talent but you have to break down how he actually performed during the season as a freshman at Florida. Beal was very unselfish with the ball and as a freshman determined to fit into the team concept he deferred his offense for much of the season. Admirably he played big minutes and was a willing and solid defender but not a standout. Despite his high school reputation as a knock down shooter he was actually pretty inconsistent from downtown until later in the year. His greatest asset to the team for much of the regular season was his willingness to stick his nose in there and rebound. While Beal was capable of doing the spectacular, on occassion, it was only when the tournament time came that he began to emerge as the "go to scorer."

Rosario, Yuguette, Prather and Frazier have all played the 3 in the Gator lineup this year. When Yugette filled the role earlier, he brought more rebounding and better defense to the position. Rosario has supplied similar offense and defense and the rebounding was largely picked up by others when he plays. Prather brings similar athleticism and similar rebounding. He, like Beal, has a flair for the spectacular. Frazier brings better shooting and similar rebounding.

What I am saying is that Beal's production has actually been matched or surpassed by the combination of players that demanded almost all of the minutes at last season. What may be missed is Beal's physical dominance that allowed him to prevail in the tournament when other Gator scoring options were stifled. For now, I say the position is at least a wash with Wilbekin's playmaking skills and defensive prowess make him an upgrade on Walker (who I still think the world of).

[born2beagator]

I also think the loss to KSU had something to do with it. IMO it woke them up

[oneatatime]

Although they are playing lights out, we really won't know if this team is better than last year's until after the elite eight games are played.

Wilbekin, Young, Murphy, Yuguette and Rosario have all improved from last year, but come tournament time, we will have to win the close ones against the elite teams.

If Will hadn't been injured, we would have likely been a final four team last year.

[NorthCaptivaGator]

The same people on here who like to refer to Erv as a zero sum player also refuse to give him any credit for the teams improvement year to year when he was the starter. He took over for perhaps the best pure point guard in team history and took a team that had gone NIT two years in a row to the NCAA second round, then Elite 8 and followed it up with another elite 8, you can't have it both ways, you can't say this years team is better than last years team because Erv is gone and not recognize that the teams he was on got better each year as well. Those of you who think we would have made Elite 8 last year if Erv was hurt or otherwise missed any significant time have short memories of how timid Scotty was running the offense,of how bad Rosario was on defense and with working within the flow of the offense and of how Prather looked like a deer in the headlights when the ball would rotate to him for the better part of the year. A year later and those guys have all improved significantly, as one should expect them to given Donovan's history, and along with a healthy Will and a motivated, healthy Young and the addition of a guy like Frazier who up to this point has shot better than Beal did in the same # of games we are playing much better team ball. We, however, have lost the only two close games that we have been in and we are susceptible to good pressure defense, will this team be able to beat a Virginia type team as handily as last years team did in the tourney? I like to think we will improve against the press as the season goes on and we will surpass last years team and make it to the final four, we should have a better record and a better seed and we should win the SEC tourney as there is no tough UK or Vandy team standing in our way but lets win at UT and at Rupp and make an Elite 8 before we start carrying this team around on our shoulders.

[fox]

Although they are playing lights out, we really won't know if this team is better than last year's until after the elite eight games are played.


We are a better team this year. If you base success solely on tournament performance then you have been trapped. If you have an urge to gnaw off your own arm, try instead to enjoy one game at a time. This season is such a joy and a privilege to see. But you have to be here.

[rserina]

Although they are playing lights out, we really won't know if this team is better than last year's until after the elite eight games are played.
No way you judge the quality of a team on the basis of whether we win one more game in the tourney or not. That may determine the success of the season, but not the quality of the team.

[madgator]

The same people on here who like to refer to Erv as a zero sum player also refuse to give him any credit for the teams improvement year to year when he was the starter. He took over for perhaps the best pure point guard in team history and took a team that had gone NIT two years in a row to the NCAA second round, then Elite 8 and followed it up with another elite 8, you can't have it both ways, you can't say this years team is better than last years team because Erv is gone and not recognize that the teams he was on got better each year as well. Those of you who think we would have made Elite 8 last year if Erv was hurt or otherwise missed any significant time have short memories of how timid Scotty was running the offense,of how bad Rosario was on defense and with working within the flow of the offense and of how Prather looked like a deer in the headlights when the ball would rotate to him for the better part of the year. A year later and those guys have all improved significantly, as one should expect them to given Donovan's history, and along with a healthy Will and a motivated, healthy Young and the addition of a guy like Frazier who up to this point has shot better than Beal did in the same # of games we are playing much better team ball. We, however, have lost the only two close games that we have been in and we are susceptible to good pressure defense, will this team be able to beat a Virginia type team as handily as last years team did in the tourney? I like to think we will improve against the press as the season goes on and we will surpass last years team and make it to the final four, we should have a better record and a better seed and we should win the SEC tourney as there is no tough UK or Vandy team standing in our way but lets win at UT and at Rupp and make an Elite 8 before we start carrying this team around on our shoulders.


In regards to last year's team I will grant you every one of your points.

but the team from 2 years ago. their success was not determined or enhanced by Walker. He hurt that team overall.

[NorthCaptivaGator]

In regards to last year's team I will grant you every one of your points.

but the team from 2 years ago. their success was not determined or enhanced by Walker. He hurt that team overall.

Ridiculous - what were our other options at point that year - a 17 year old - that's it - again Erv gets hurt and that team doesn't even make the tourney

[tegator80]

Ridiculous - what were our other options at point that year - a 17 year old - that's it - again Erv gets hurt and that team doesn't even make the tourney

Yes, I wish these Erv (and Dan) wern't good posts would die. The main reason why these players were in play to get the less-than-stellar evaluations is because...the options to use someone else was limited.

[alietigator]

In regards to last year's team I will grant you every one of your points.

but the team from 2 years ago. their success was not determined or enhanced by Walker. He hurt that team overall.

This is ridiculous. Do you even remember that team at all. Lets refresh your memory. Think back to the game against UCLA in the tourney. Parsons couldn't make a play at all, boynton was a turnover and missed shot machine, and Macklin couldn't make a free throw and was in foul trouble. Walker beat UCLA by himself. End of point. Everyone thinks of the butler game that walker and boynton lost. But we wouldn't have even made it that far without walker... Zero sum, what a joke. Everyone also likes to blame walker and boynton for the butler game, and they def deserve it, but no one puts any blame on parsons. He played a horrible game.

These arguments need to stop. The walker bashers forget there were no other options and Scotty was not 10% the player he is now back then.

[gatorrick1]

Really sad how many people on here just don't get it. All this talk about how we are better offensively because we move the ball better and take better shots and other stuff has little to do with why we are better minus those two guys at this point in the season.

It's all about defense!!!!!! We are one of the top defensive teams in the country. As someone that has coached and tried to teach a team how to defend the multitude of offenses that get thrown out at you I can't stress enough how important it is to have older players. Teaching defending on ball screens takes seasons. Figuring out how to hedge, how long to hedge how to rotate behin the hedge etc takes time. PY, EM, MR are playing better team defense then they ever have before. SW, KB and WY are all strong defenders and all of these guys are upperclassmen. Unless you have an amazing shot blocker like A Davis protecting the rim it's hard to be good defensively without having 5 guys on the floor that get it, understand rotations and box out responsibilities.

We are better for one reason, we play great team defense and our staff has done an amazing job of getting all of our guys to buy in because it only takes one man breaking down to give up easy baskets. Now while I agree that at this point in the season we are better than at this point in the season last year lets wait and see how we play the rest of the year. All great coaches like Billy don't want their teams to peak in January. They want them primed for March and last years team made it to the elite eight and were pretty damned good so let's sit back and see what happens with this group. I am really enjoying the effort, but its a long season.

[gatordd]

without Brad no without Erv yes... he is/was and always will be a liability on D.

[SmootyGator]

I don't think that it's necessarily that we're better without them, I just think that this team is (or at least looks) better than that team was. I think it has to do more with Wilbekin stepping up, EMurph getting physical in the paint (happened at the end of last year), and Prather's game slowing down a bit (also happened after the UK dunk last year). I really think that losing Yuegette last year cancelled out the improvements by EMurph and Prather (in terms of how good we were as a team), but now that he's back, we're seeing it. I also think that Frazier has done a great job filling in for some of the things that Beal did. Frazier actually has shot better than Beal did, so far, and rebounds pretty well too.

Hopefully we can get over our injuries, and get hot at the right time and make a run for some rings!!! :D

[gulfgator]

Love this team, I love the way they play D, . I think they are playing more as a team this year and definitely have sold out on on defense more than any team I have seen including 94 and the 04s, which is the real difference maker.

Beal would still be the best player on the court and I still can't dismiss TWO great 8s(one with Beal, ) as a barometer on how good this team will be ultimately , especially at the halfway point in conference play. hard not to argue that the competition is weaker this year, no doubt in my mind, but we are blowing people out. I actually "think" this team is better, but I'd be lying if I said I was sure of it, yet.

[GothamGator]

As usual, RSerina makes the right point. These guys are veterans, and it shows.

Our offense has been terrific, but our defense is what's really great. And - that is NOT coming from individual players being strong one-on-one defenders. It is coming from great team defense. Our rotations and help defense have been incredible all season. These guys are great at anticipating the next pass and rotating to help when needed. That comes from being an experienced member of the team and putting in great effort.

[madgator]

This is ridiculous. Do you even remember that team at all. Lets refresh your memory. Think back to the game against UCLA in the tourney. Parsons couldn't make a play at all, boynton was a turnover and missed shot machine, and Macklin couldn't make a free throw and was in foul trouble. Walker beat UCLA by himself. End of point. Everyone thinks of the butler game that walker and boynton lost. But we wouldn't have even made it that far without walker... Zero sum, what a joke. Everyone also likes to blame walker and boynton for the butler game, and they def deserve it, but no one puts any blame on parsons. He played a horrible game.

These arguments need to stop. The walker bashers forget there were no other options and Scotty was not 10% the player he is now back then.


Boynton the turnover machine with his 1 turnover?

Parsons missed shot after shot after shot? He only took 8 shots, hit 3 of them. Was never really able to get into the flow of the game. A typical issue that season that was not of his fault.

Macklin played really well in that game. Tyus really was getting after it as well. I give Tyus a good bit of the credit for that win.


But to me that was a fairly typical Walker game. Dominated the ball. Never really got his perimeter team mates into the flow of the game. Forced a lot of plays. Killed momentum a bunch of times when we were primed and ready to rip the game open. (how many 8 point leads went right back to 2-3?) He made a few really nice hustle plays. Pulled garbage out of his butt to save himself (which for some reason people get impressed with). Made the game closer than it really needed to be and then he made his free throws down the stretch to put the game away.

should've been a double digit win with little issue. we had UCLA outclassed

and what I was saying all along two years ago is that SW to me had obvious talent to be a true point guard and because we really didn't have one, we should've played him a lot more earlier in the season as we would be better off in the long run. Interesting to note that SW played less minutes as a sophomore than he did as a frosh. curious.

10% of what he is today? not so sure about that. just the result of experience, confidence and physical maturity. But we didn't NEED SW of today two years ago. We just needed someone who played stout perimeter D (which he did even then) and a basic initiator of the offense.

I said it in early January 2011 that our team needed to revolve around Parsons working the ball from the inside/out. Our front court was the best in the country. Despite the fact that CP won SEC player of the year and proving to be an NBA of all-star capability, he was 3rd on our team in shot attempts that year.....3rd (and he was only 2 Macklin shots from being 4th). And considering that he probably got 1-2 shot attempts per game off the offensive glass, that tells me that our guards had a problem getting him into the offense as they should have.

CP was massively under-utilized. WHY? so that Walker could pump up 11 shots a game? I also put a good bit of blame on KB as well for this. He took almost 33% more shots than Parsons did that year.....inexcusable. but still, the PG needs to be accountable for the teams actions. which was another Walker weakness as a PG. Kid never seemed to say a word to anyone, ever.

Macklin (an NBA center) was also incredibly under-utilized that season. WHY?

I could always deal with KB cause because of his defense, ability to score in the paint, that he doesn't over-dribble or get into bad situations. Yes, he takes bad shots every now and again. But that alone doesn't put a guy in my dog house.

a point guard not knowing how to utilize and maximize his team mates and stubbornly pursuing his own agenda....yeah, that bothers me a whole bunch.

[madgator]

Really sad how many people on here just don't get it. All this talk about how we are better offensively because we move the ball better and take better shots and other stuff has little to do with why we are better minus those two guys at this point in the season.

It's all about defense!!!!!! We are one of the top defensive teams in the country. As someone that has coached and tried to teach a team how to defend the multitude of offenses that get thrown out at you I can't stress enough how important it is to have older players. Teaching defending on ball screens takes seasons. Figuring out how to hedge, how long to hedge how to rotate behin the hedge etc takes time. PY, EM, MR are playing better team defense then they ever have before. SW, KB and WY are all strong defenders and all of these guys are upperclassmen. Unless you have an amazing shot blocker like A Davis protecting the rim it's hard to be good defensively without having 5 guys on the floor that get it, understand rotations and box out responsibilities.


when your offense is more efficient, shooting at a better % (particularly from the 3pt line), your defense is going to play better not just for the reasons you listed above (all great points btw) but also because you are going to give up a lot less transition opportunities.

this team is actually taking less shots per game and scoring more points per game than the last two seasons. tells me that the team is able to dictate the pace of play on their opponents.

a lot less possessions per game on both offense and defense. which at the college level is a recipe for success. especially when you are shooting almost 50% from the floor as a team.

this is beautiful basketball!

something we really haven't seen in quite a few years and you don't need future NBA stars to do it.

[ufgator4ever]

Although they are playing lights out, we really won't know if this team is better than last year's until after the elite eight games are played.
Bingo. Who will step up and perform like beal in close tourney games? The secis so awful, not sure we'll know how good this team is until late march.

[alietigator]

Boynton the turnover machine with his 1 turnover?

Parsons missed shot after shot after shot? He only took 8 shots, hit 3 of them. Was never really able to get into the flow of the game. A typical issue that season that was not of his fault.

Macklin played really well in that game. Tyus really was getting after it as well. I give Tyus a good bit of the credit for that win.


But to me that was a fairly typical Walker game. Dominated the ball. Never really got his perimeter team mates into the flow of the game. Forced a lot of plays. Killed momentum a bunch of times when we were primed and ready to rip the game open. (how many 8 point leads went right back to 2-3?) He made a few really nice hustle plays. Pulled garbage out of his butt to save himself (which for some reason people get impressed with). Made the game closer than it really needed to be and then he made his free throws down the stretch to put the game away.

should've been a double digit win with little issue. we had UCLA outclassed

and what I was saying all along two years ago is that SW to me had obvious talent to be a true point guard and because we really didn't have one, we should've played him a lot more earlier in the season was getting as we would be better off in the long run.

10% of what he is today? not so sure about that. just the result of experience, confidence and physical maturity. But we didn't NEED SW of today two years ago. We just needed someone who played stout perimeter D (which he did even then) and a basic initiator of the offense.

I said it in early January 2011 that our team needed to revolve around Parsons working the ball from the inside/out. Our front court was the best in the country. Despite the fact that CP won SEC player of the year and proving to be an NBA of all-star capability, he was 3rd on our team in shot attempts that year.....3rd (and he was only 2 Macklin shots from being 4th). And considering that he probably got 1-2 shot attempts per game off the offensive glass, that tells me that our guards had a problem getting him into the offense as they should have.

CP was massively under-utilized. WHY? so that Walker could pump up 11 shots a game? I also put a good bit of blame on KB as well for this. He took almost 33% more shots than Parsons did that year.....inexcusable. but still, the PG needs to be accountable for the teams actions. which was another Walker weakness as a PG. Kid never seemed to say a word to anyone, ever.

Macklin (an NBA center) was also incredibly under-utilized that season. WHY?

I could always deal with KB cause because of his defense, ability to score in the paint, that he doesn't over-dribble or get into bad situations. Yes, he takes bad shots every now and again. But that alone doesn't put a guy in my dog house.

a point guard not knowing how to utilize and maximize his team mates and stubbornly pursuing his own agenda....yeah, that bothers me a whole bunch.

I cant believe I just read that. You have been taking stats and turning them to your point for the past 3 years but avoiding the obvious stats..
First I never said tyus didn't play well. You say Parsons was Ok because he was 3-8. 2 of those made feild goals were lay ups and he missed his only 3 and was 1-2 from free throw. He played way under par. Maklin couldnt make a free throw and was in foul trouble the whole game. Thats why he never hit his potential because BD didn't trust him at the end of games due to free throws. Young actually played well that game because of macklins foul problems. Boynton only had 1 turnover but was 3-9 and his misses were momentum killers, not walker's.

Now for walkers stats. So walker had an average game for his standards??? WOW. He was 5-8 FG, 3-5 on 3s, 8-10 for free throws and 1 turnover. I guess his 3 misses were real momentum killers. This is why you are a joke when it comes to walker. he played one of the best games of anyone in the tournament, but it was just average because we should have won by 15, and thats all walkers fault.

There is no was wilbiken in 2011 could have helped if he got more minutes. He could barely dribble the ball up the court. Defense was always great, but the offense was terrible when he ran it that year.

Walker had so many faults and crappy games, but you will never say he did anything above average.

[madgator]

I cant believe I just read that. You have been taking stats and turning them to your point for the past 3 years but avoiding the obvious stats..
First I never said tyus didn't play well. You say Parsons was Ok because he was 3-8. 2 of those made feild goals were lay ups and he missed his only 3 and was 1-2 from free throw. He played way under par. Maklin couldnt make a free throw and was in foul trouble the whole game. Thats why he never hit his potential because BD didn't trust him at the end of games due to free throws. Young actually played well that game because of macklins foul problems. Boynton only had 1 turnover but was 3-9 and his misses were momentum killers, not walker's.

Now for walkers stats. So walker had an average game for his standards??? WOW. He was 5-8 FG, 3-5 on 3s, 8-10 for free throws and 1 turnover. I guess his 3 misses were real momentum killers. This is why you are a joke when it comes to walker. he played one of the best games of anyone in the tournament, but it was just average because we should have won by 15, and thats all walkers fault.

There is no was wilbiken in 2011 could have helped if he got more minutes. He could barely dribble the ball up the court. Defense was always great, but the offense was terrible when he ran it that year.

Walker had so many faults and crappy games, but you will never say he did anything above average.


100% not true. I give/gave Walker plenty of compliments on his strengths. yes, I do rail on the kid a bunch. so if you take that into consideration, for me to say he was "zero sum" means that he obviously did something I appreciated and he did it well.

the UCLA game for me was a lot like the UGA game in athens that year and a common theme throughout his days at PG. His stats look good. He did a lot of exciting things that jump out in peoples memories (the bouncing off the fat guy, the steal on the inbounds pass etc). But his actual play as a PG was sub-par and was detrimental to the team despite the win and his personal stats.

I just never liked watching the way the kid managed a game as a PG. I'm just looking for something different out of my PG in the way he approaches the game.

I'm not trying to use stats in my favor. Just pointing out that Boynton had only 1 turnover (you said he was a turnover machine that game) and that Parsons was off (and he was only 1 made FG from 50% for the day).

Much of what I say about Walker is difficult to quantify or prove because they are not statistically verifiable. How do you statistically measure a zig when you should have zagged? Situational mistakes that do not translate into stats. Not utilizing team mates.

much of what I'm talking about is subtle points of the game. there are players out there that are statistical monsters that I wouldn't want anywhere near my team (and I'm not even talking about locker room cancers).

So I guess that my expectations of how the game should be played is just as important as the end results. maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong. I'm a sucker for the fundamentals and sound basketball theory and execution.

[Jonas]

without Brad no without Erv yes... he is/was and always will be a liability on D.

Can you or someone else define what a defensive liability is?

[ArtVandelay]

We are better because certain players are playing a bigger role and have improved tremendously...

not

because we don't have Beal or Walker...

[cmarcum]

I don't think were better..I just didn't like the way the team was used last year...thot scottie startin and erv coming off the bench ala vinnie johnson from the pistons would have made us a much better team...would have improved our bench scoring when kb and brad had to rest...and our defensse would have been much better with scottie on the floor...erv got abused by opposing teams simply bcuz of his size...but his ability to shoot and make free throws and break the press was critical in us closing out games

[rserina]

I don't think were better..I just didn't like the way the team was used last year...thot scottie startin and erv coming off the bench ala vinnie johnson from the pistons would have made us a much better team...would have improved our bench scoring when kb and brad had to rest...and our defensse would have been much better with scottie on the floor...erv got abused by opposing teams simply bcuz of his size...but his ability to shoot and make free throws and break the press was critical in us closing out games
How often have you ever seen a senior three-year starter go to the bench for a sophomore? Never happens. The closest we have ever come is Weeks in 99-00, but that was only because neither he nor Dupay could run the point effectively and the ball stopped too often with them. Even Green didn't supplant Roberson in 04-05 after Walsh returned from injury and we had five guys rotating at the 1-3.

Plus, I don't see how pairing Walker with Rosario off the bench would have made us a better team. Maybe better defensively in the starting lineup, but much worse defensively when the starters went to the bench. A far better rotation would have been playing Wilbekin and Walker together more often, which would have allowed Walker to play off the ball some while Wilbekin covered some of his defensive deficiencies against certain point guards.

One overlooked aspect of our troubles last year is that the league was stacked. Just very, very good. The only ugly loss was to UGA, which can at least be partly attributed to the absence of Yeguete. Even with that, plus all the inexperience and moving parts, we were still underseeded at 7 (probably a 5), and pretty much a shot or two away from the Final Four.

[tommyuf21]

Really sad how many people on here just don't get it. All this talk about how we are better offensively because we move the ball better and take better shots and other stuff has little to do with why we are better minus those two guys at this point in the season.

It's all about defense!!!!!! We are one of the top defensive teams in the country. As someone that has coached and tried to teach a team how to defend the multitude of offenses that get thrown out at you I can't stress enough how important it is to have older players. Teaching defending on ball screens takes seasons. Figuring out how to hedge, how long to hedge how to rotate behin the hedge etc takes time. PY, EM, MR are playing better team defense then they ever have before. SW, KB and WY are all strong defenders and all of these guys are upperclassmen. Unless you have an amazing shot blocker like A Davis protecting the rim it's hard to be good defensively without having 5 guys on the floor that get it, understand rotations and box out responsibilities.

We are better for one reason, we play great team defense and our staff has done an amazing job of getting all of our guys to buy in because it only takes one man breaking down to give up easy baskets. Now while I agree that at this point in the season we are better than at this point in the season last year lets wait and see how we play the rest of the year. All great coaches like Billy don't want their teams to peak in January. They want them primed for March and last years team made it to the elite eight and were pretty damned good so let's sit back and see what happens with this group. I am really enjoying the effort, but its a long season.

Very well said. You are only as strong as your weakest link and so far this season, no weak link has emerged.

Everyone has stepped up their game and Frazier has been a great suprise with his accuracy from long range and his ability to rebound. He has taken a Beal-like role from the bench. Scottie has asserted himself and taken his game to another level on the offensive end.

Instead of bashing a guy that some don't like because he was short, let's celebrate the hard work and improvement that our coaches and players have put in to get themselves to this point.

[GatorAvatar]

KY is down, Vandy is down. We retain several experienced players. We reached elite 8 last year. This team is #4 currently,but it hasn't surpassed what last year's team accomplished last year. We should stop making these kind of statements and enjoy what we have this year.

[themistocles]

Interesting discussion. The initial article--and in many respects the response--both follow from the wrong premise: it isn't so much the replacements for Beal and/or Walker, but the improvement of the other 6-7 guys in the rotation. Young and Murphy were both new starters last season playing by far their most minutes and they struggled sustaining intensity and adapting their games as the year progressed. This year, each has made massive improvements, whether it is Young's energy level, defensive focus, and improved low post moves or Murphy's pick and roll defense, ability to post up by putting the ball on the ground, or corner three.

The same is true for Yeguete. Donovan said he came in out of shape (some goofy comment about eating too many French pastries) and when he did work himself into shape he got hit by injuries. This year, he came in ripped and much stronger and has added that little dribble drive move from the top of the key as well as the jumper he didn't use at all his first two seasons. When you have two new starters in the post, and their only backup is new to the rotation, you can expect to struggle some unless they are all elite caliber players.

In general, if I had to make an argument it would be one of increased experience and familiarity. The same thing happened in 2010-11. We were a ten seed that was a miracle three against NC State from possibly not making the tournament and we transformed into league championship winning Elite Eight team because each of those kids (three new starters, another at a new position) all learned from their experiences, improved their games, and developed better chemistry. The same thing happened this year to a team that returned seven of its top nine guys from a year ago, six of whom had double digit minutes on the year. The 2010 class may very well go down as the most successful in school history after the 2004 group.

I don't mean to discount the fact that Wilbekin is a significantly better defender than Walker and a more "natural" point guard (whatever that actual means, but I grant it nonetheless), or that the offensive pieces fit together better than they did a year ago when we were heavy on scoring-minded guards. But take away Walker and Beal from last year's team and we don't even make the tournament, let alone improve on their success. Take away one even one of them and we are significantly worse still.

YES!!!

You simply cannot replace EXPERIENCE, I don't care what quality of player you are brining in. Admittedly, last year's Ky team, and Michigan's Fab 5 were both cases that argue against this thesis, however, it is "Almost Always TRUE."

[tommyuf21]

This is a big question mark for me too. It also is to my why Wilbekin is not scoring in double figures yet. But the bigger worry is will he knock down those FTs in crunch time at a high enough rate.

I don't think there is any legitimate reason that he can't knock down Free Throws at something close to Boynton or Rosario's percentage. I think his problem is that he doesn't get fouled much and get many opportunities. He is driving more, so maybe he goes to the line more over the last month or so of the season and gets some confidence.

Our biggest problem closing out games on the line will be with Patric and Will to a lesser extent.

[gatormann]

Andy Hutchins' article and discussion is excellent.

Regardless of who is right or wrong, I'd rather leave discussions of Walker's shortcomings in the past.

[phideltdj]

The defensive improvement is the obvious piece as there is no denying this team is better defensively than last year. IMO on offense they are better because Erv was really not a quintissential point guard either. He really had a scorer's mentality and was not a high assist point guard so the offense would struggle in stretches. I think this team moves the ball better on offense than last years team. Last years group with Beal, Walker, and Boynton would try to break down defenders and there was more one on one play as oppossed to the consistent passing you see in the games this year. Erv definitely handled the press better so we will see how this develops.

[gatormann]

... Last years group with Beal, Walker, and Boynton would try to break down defenders and there was more one on one play as oppossed to the consistent passing you see in the games this year...

I'm very excited about this development. Defensively, I think we are playing at or near are peak potential. Offensively, is where the greatest room for growth remains. Lately, the ball movement has been outstanding and the team has played unselfishly.

[madgator]

Very well said. You are only as strong as your weakest link and so far this season, no weak link has emerged.

Everyone has stepped up their game and Frazier has been a great suprise with his accuracy from long range and his ability to rebound. He has taken a Beal-like role from the bench. Scottie has asserted himself and taken his game to another level on the offensive end.

Instead of bashing a guy that some don't like because he was short, let's celebrate the hard work and improvement that our coaches and players have put in to get themselves to this point.


why do you always go to this irrelevant point? basically, you are refusing to admit any of the faults that EW had that many on here are pointing out. clearly, I was not alone in my opinions. so we are all anti-short people?

eddie shannon was like 5'9
taurean green was 5'11

I had no issues with either of these guys. in fact, they are two of my favorite gator hoopsters.

your simple conclusion is either completely obtuse or a result of personal complexes and is void of any critical analysis.

adds nothing to the discussion. in fact, all it tries to do is cut it off.

[patsyruth2008]

How was Georgia better the year after Dominque Wilkens left? They went to the Final Four being led by Vern Fleming. Now, who is better: Wilkens or Fleming?

Lurker;

One of my best friends started at Small Forward on that final four team, Lamar Heard. They got beat by N.C. State in the semi-finals and then the Wolfpack shocked the world by beating Fly Slama Jama (Houston) in the finals in Albuquerque.

Lamar was Dominque's roommate for all three years he was at Georgia and was a Groomsman at his wedding (cover of Sports Illustrated). Some serious recruiting voliations took place in between their So. and Jr. years................. Long, but really good story....................

[madgator]

Lurker;

One of my best friends started at Small Forward on that final four team, Lamar Heard. They got beat by N.C. State in the semi-finals and then the Wolfpack shocked the world by beating Fly Slama Jama (Houston) in the finals in Albuquerque.

Lamar was Dominque's roommate for all three years he was at Georgia and was a Groomsman at his wedding (cover of Sports Illustrated). Some serious recruiting voliations took place in between their So. and Jr. years................. Long, but really good story....................


oh, I bet!

[ofmgator]

This team buys into Billy's defensive pressure last years did not. Walker consistently drove to the basket and didn't dish to anyone and being 5'11" he often lost the ball.
This teamplays better as a team. The article is right on.

[stingbb]

We will see if this year's team is better because we still have a long way to go.

Remember, last year's team made it to the Elite 8 which is not easy to do. It also played against a much tougher SEC compared to this year so don't get too caught up in the margin of victories of late against, except for Missouri, schools that aren't really any good at all.

Plus, after tonight, the SEC schedule gets tougher. Two games remain against UK and Ole Miss on Saturday will be a challenge. UF also has a road game at Mizzou, who will be at full strength with Bowers back, and UT, which is never an easy place to play for us. Then will come the grind of March and only after that, can we determine who was the better team.

[PSGator66]

I think that this discussion should wait until the season is over.

[corpgator]

You guys know he's 5'8 and not 5'11 right?

[tommyuf21]

You guys know he's 5'8 and not 5'11 right?

That was his listed height, I think he was even shorter than that.

[regurgigator]

I think that this discussion should wait until the season is over.

In the immortal words of Steve Martin: Naaaaaah!

Where's the fun in that?

I don't judge how good a team is solely based on how far they get in a single-elimination Tournament. Whether this team gets knocked out in the 1st Round or makes it to the Championship Game, it won't change my impression that we're seeing a Gator team playing a very special brand of basketball this season. I and other posters have been calling this team "special" (and other superlatives) since November and I don't feel we're a bit premature.

And, it has little to do with the amazing stats this team has so far. I think their outstanding play, particularly on the defensive end (not counting the holiday period where I thought their defense didn't look as intense for several games in a row), is evident in the "eye test". The stats just reinforce what the "eye test" is telling us. And that is: These guys are flat getting after it on defense like no other Gator team we've ever seen.


There is a superstitious side of me that's a little uncomfortable with "vocalizing" how thrilled I am with this team, but I'm hoping jinxes aren't real :ninja:

[traubgator]

i think simply because billy's best teams have always been exactly that "teams".

that being said, beal would make this team even sicker. he's too good a player.

[MJGator8104]

The biggest difference between this season and last is that everyone has bought into team defense.

Beal would have been great on this team; however, it hasn't hurt to not have him return due to the return of WY and the improvement of Rosario.

[GatorAvatar]

I think that this discussion should wait until the season is over.

Exactly. In fact, I just want to beat UK. If we can't beat then this year then we are not a good team.

[MaceoP]

I'll add my 2 cents. Young played injured most of last year. Wilbekin is young... last year he was younger and a little more immature. Wilbekin size alone is a big improvement over walker on D. Our starters improved dramatically this year. I see Yeguette as being a much more complete player this year. Overall, we have alot more depth. Let's not forget Beal improved as the year went on. IMO, he wasn't much of a factor in the first part of the season last year.

I would say our team had a very, very good year last year, and it remains to be seen whether we will surpass that team with this year's version.. I believe we will and I also think this team is better, however we need to wait till the tourney is over to truly judge this years team.

[g8tr80]

hrd to say if this team would be even better wtih Beal. Chemistry is a strange thing. Throw in a player like Beal and rotations change, players get different minutes, etc. I dunno, hard to see how we would be significantly better than we are right now.

Biggest difference? Everybody is a year older and we now have a defensive minded floor general who is improving his leadership game by game. IMHO, we haven't had a true point guard like Wilbekin since Green.

[madgator]

hrd to say if this team would be even better wtih Beal. Chemistry is a strange thing. Throw in a player like Beal and rotations change, players get different minutes, etc. I dunno, hard to see how we would be significantly better than we are right now.

Biggest difference? Everybody is a year older and we now have a defensive minded floor general who is improving his leadership game by game. IMHO, we haven't had a true point guard like Wilbekin since Green.

regardless of the reasons; all of which are valid. this brand of basketball is a lot more pleasurable to watch. I'm sure we all agree on that.

Over the EW years I had my opinions of watching his execution which I made very clear. The play of this years team has, in the aforementioned regard, vindicated what I have been saying.

Is the loss of EW the only factor in the equation? Of course not. However, the team concept, the defense, the rotations and allocation of minutes and diversity of lineups were all dramatically impacted by EW getting 33 minutes a game.

we are better off without him in all of the above mentioned points. a quality Gator and good kid by all accounts. Had a fully successful career at UF.

despite all that, I enjoy gator basketball better without him

[jhbyrd]

It's all about defense!!!!!! We are one of the top defensive teams in the country.

We are more athletic and quicker on defense this year. We are almost as good on offense. Frazier has been a pleasant surprise on offense, he has lessened the blow of losing Beal.

[4everaGator]

Could it not be that some of our defensive prowess can be attributed to Pelphrey returning? He came back for the 2011/12 season but I think his impact is far greater in the second year.

[themistocles]

Could it not be that some of our defensive prowess can be attributed to Pelphrey returning? He came back for the 2011/12 season but I think his impact is far greater in the second year.

I think that both he and Grant had an enormous impact on historic Gator teams.

Coaching, playing and development are all evolutionary phenomena. Those who evolve get better, those who keep their heads in the sand tend to not do that.

I must admit that no matter what happens in the long run, this team has really surprised me. I expected them to be better than most people expected - for example, when people were talking about how GREAT the 2013 is going to be, I was say, I think 2012 is going to be very good. But they have really surpassed my expectations.

[gogators73]

Exactly. In fact, I just want to beat UK. If we can't beat then this year then we are not a good team.

I'll be pretty disappointed if we don't embarrass them. We are wayyyyyy better.

Everyone saw them beat Ole Miss thanks to 9739 free throws and says they turned the corner. They were just coming off beating LSU by 5 in Rupp. I guarantee you UK struggles at TAMU tomorrow and maybe even loses. They aren't any better. People just think Ole Miss was really good.

[NorthCaptivaGator]

regardless of the reasons; all of which are valid. this brand of basketball is a lot more pleasurable to watch. I'm sure we all agree on that.

Over the EW years I had my opinions of watching his execution which I made very clear. The play of this years team has, in the aforementioned regard, vindicated what I have been saying.

Is the loss of EW the only factor in the equation? Of course not. However, the team concept, the defense, the rotations and allocation of minutes and diversity of lineups were all dramatically impacted by EW getting 33 minutes a game.

we are better off without him in all of the above mentioned points. a quality Gator and good kid by all accounts. Had a fully successful career at UF.

despite all that, I enjoy gator basketball better without him

I would enjoy this board better without you

Erv got 33 mins per game because he was the best option, you act like we had a better option but the only other option was Scotty and you are the only one who thinks he was remotely ready to take major minutes prior to this year, hell he was suspended for the first 4 games this year, obviously he had some maturing to do, he has surpassed all expectations this year, a big part of that may be based on the time he spent on the bench watching and learning the last two years, your refusal to acknowledge that not only makes you look like a fool but also makes you extremely annoying - enjoy the current team - quit trying to beat your chest while denigrating a kid who was a big part of two of the most successful teams in the history of Gator basketball

[madgator]

I would enjoy this board better without you

Erv got 33 mins per game because he was the best option, you act like we had a better option but the only other option was Scotty and you are the only one who thinks he was remotely ready to take major minutes prior to this year, hell he was suspended for the first 4 games this year, obviously he had some maturing to do, he has surpassed all expectations this year, a big part of that may be based on the time he spent on the bench watching and learning the last two years, your refusal to acknowledge that not only makes you look like a fool but also makes you extremely annoying - enjoy the current team - quit trying to beat your chest while denigrating a kid who was a big part of two of the most successful teams in the history of Gator basketball



I was one of the few who stated two years ago that SW was going to be a top rate player for us. For me, I could see the talent and said that it was in our teams long term best interests to start him as a freshman and bring Walker off the bench in a 22 minute per game basis as a combo guard in advantageous situations.

were you one of the many who felt that SW was never going to be more than an average off the bench role player?

I'm pretty sure you were.

[Jonas]

You also thought Larson was going to be a major player for us (I did too) so it's not like your some genius evaluator of talent. I'm pretty sure most of us here were pretty optimistic on Scottie's development.

I love how you keep implying throughout the years that you know more about PG play and evaluation than Billy ****ing Donovan. You are insane if you think Scottie was ready to play as a freshmen. He was 17 years old and should have still been in HS. There are very few players who are ready to start at PG in Billy's system as a freshmen. I can entertain the argument that Scottie should have started last year (even though I disagree with it), but to say it was the right call 2 years is ridic.

[madgator]

You also thought Larson was going to be a major player for us (I did too) so it's not like your some genius evaluator of talent. I'm pretty sure most of us here were pretty optimistic on Scottie's development.

I love how you keep implying throughout the years that you know more about PG play and evaluation than Billy ****ing Donovan. You are insane if you think Scottie was ready to play as a freshmen. He was 17 years old and should have still been in HS. There are very few players who are ready to start at PG in Billy's system as a freshmen. I can entertain the argument that Scottie should have started last year (even though I disagree with it), but to say it was the right call 2 years is ridic.

you do know that BD did all he could to keep Larson in the program and has stated that he does have an open door back if he wants it.

[NorthCaptivaGator]

I was one of the few who stated two years ago that SW was going to be a top rate player for us. For me, I could see the talent and said that it was in our teams long term best interests to start him as a freshman and bring Walker off the bench in a 22 minute per game basis as a combo guard in advantageous situations.

were you one of the many who felt that SW was never going to be more than an average off the bench role player?

I'm pretty sure you were.

I have always been high on Scotty Wilbekin my only concern is his ability to beat pressure defense and that concern still stands today. If you think we would've been "better off in the long run" with Walker coming off the bench and Wilbekin starting your nuts, the long-run is right now and were pretty damn good, without Walker we do not make elite 6 last two years

[Jonas]

you do know that BD did all he could to keep Larson in the program and has stated that he does have an open door back if he wants it.

Yep, but do you know it would be as a walk on? He still had a lot more to do earn his scholarship back. He was still a long way from becoming an impact player especially with all the bigs we are getting next year.

I'm not confident anymore he would have made anymore of an impact this year if he hypothetically stayed than last year considering he did something to warrant his scholarship getting pulled.

[madgator]

I have always been high on Scotty Wilbekin my only concern is his ability to beat pressure defense and that concern still stands today. If you think we would've been "better off in the long run" with Walker coming off the bench and Wilbekin starting your nuts, the long-run is right now and were pretty damn good, without Walker we do not make elite 6 last two years

I respectfully disagree. particularly when it comes to last year's team.

I liked Walker much better in the "rosario role" of this year.

[tommyuf21]

He just hates Erving Walker and no amount of evidence to the contrary will ever change his mind.

It's a good thing our coach doesn't have time to read this board. Some of the things that have been said about a player that he highly valued would have made him upchuck.