Citrus deputy threatens to shoot CC holder.

[GolphinGator]

Has this been posted on here already? If so sorry. I just wanted to hear what opinion people had about this traffic stop.

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTYh82B7s0Q

[exiledgator]

Obviously, that cop is way out of line.

Two questions for my own edification:

- Does a CCW have to declare the weapon when dealing with LE?
- What is Florida law on getting out of a vehicle on a traffic stop?

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

Obviously, that cop is way out of line.

Two questions for my own edification:

- Does a CCW have to declare the weapon when dealing with LE?

No, but it is a good idea if the gun can or will be seen,


- What is Florida law on getting out of a vehicle on a traffic stop?

Not sure.

[gatorman_07732]

Obviously, that cop is way out of line.

Two questions for my own edification:

- Does a CCW have to declare the weapon when dealing with LE?
- What is Florida law on getting out of a vehicle on a traffic stop?

No, but they tell you to always declare your weapon in CC training

[gatorman_07732]

This cop needs to be removed from duty

[g8trdoc]

Typical cop and that's an unfortunate thing to say

[exiledgator]

No, but it is a good idea if the gun can or will be seen,




Not sure.

Thanks.

Seems like common sense to declare it. My father was a part-time cop and he always told me to stay in the vehicle. Turn off the vehicle. Put the keys on the dash. Leave my hands on the wheel. Basically, everything this guy didn't do.

I'm not defending this cop's actions. I agree he should be, at least, put on leave. I'm merely saying he may have been on edge due to the driver's actions. This in no way excuses his actions. If he can't deal with nerves, he needs a new line of work.

[gatorman_07732]

Can't even count how many things that cop did wrong, but it started with his abusive language and total abuse of power.

[exiledgator]

Can't even count how many things that cop did wrong, but it started with his abusive language and total abuse of power.

Roid rage. :laugh:

[LittleBlueLW]

I got stopped for speeding last year and when the Sheriff walked up, I had the window down and both hands on the wheel.

Told him I had a permit and a 45 in the console.

He told me to please retrieve it and hand it to him using my left hand and two fingers, barrel down.

I did but cannot tell you how nervous I was that if I had dropped it or made some wrong move, this dude would have killed me. FWIW, he did not have his hand on his pistol while I was doing this.

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

Seems like common sense to declare it. My father was a part-time cop and he always told me to stay in the vehicle. Turn off the vehicle. Put the keys on the dash. Leave my hands on the wheel. Basically, everything this guy didn't do.

Yep. Always, ALWAYS, do this, especially if there is a weapon in the car.

BTW, in Florida and in Georgia, one does not need a concealed weapons permit to have a loaded handgun in the car. I think Florida might have some restrictions where the weapon can be located without a CCP though.

[LittleBlueLW]

The officer did exactly as he should have. However he could have used some judgement once it was clear the intent to 'brandish the firearm' was unintentional and the dude had a permit. Could have used it as a teaching moment.

As a CC permit holder, it is your responsibility to keep the firearm concealed. The officer made a great point that if the gun was concealed, how was he able to see it?

[MichiGator2002]

Declaring a weapon to a cop is just basic human survival instinct as far as I am concerned. Will this knowledge automatically make the cop more tense, yes. Is that preferable to him being SURPISED by it and going to the next level? HUR DUR yes.

I mean, damn, even if you aren't armed you have to proceed with the utmost deference to what the officer is going to be perceiving. You gotta move your hands out of sight for any reason, say so, say why, and do it slow.

Just reacting on principle, haven't watched video. It just would never occur to me in a million years not to declare a lawfully possessed weapon. On a traffic stop I would probably declare it even if not on my person but in a place where I may have to reach near.

I grew up when the big thing was kids getting shot at night playing laser tag by cops. There is just no sense in assuming anything, like that the cop will give you the slightest benefit of the doubt.

[HALLGATOR]

The citizen handled himself much better than the cop. Threatening to shoot someone in the back is about as chickenchit as you can get. This cop is too scared to be out making traffic stops and will probably wind up shooting someone one day.

[ChartsandGrafs]

About a year ago I talked to a retired cop and asked him why cops in recent years seem to have itchier trigger fingers than cops in previous years. This was a few days after an incident that received national attention where a cop gunned down a family dog while it was fenced inside its own backyard, which was still fresh in my mind. Anyway, his answer was pretty disturbing.

He basically said that there are two types of cops on most modern police forces. There are those who've drawn their gun and fired it in the line of duty, and there are those who haven't. He said that many, if not most, of the cops in the latter category are eager to join the cops in former category. It's like a rite of passage on the way to becoming a hardened, veteran cop, and they are all aware of it, even if it goes unspoken.

Most everything else he said was either vague or decidedly pro-cop, but I thought that was very interesting. The thought that there are thousands of cops out there on patrol looking for any excuse at all to fire their weapon at someone is pretty scary.

[exiledgator]

About a year ago I talked to a retired cop and asked him why cops in recent years seem to have itchier trigger fingers than cops in previous years. This was a few days after an incident that received national attention where a cop gunned down a family dog while it was fenced inside its own backyard, which was still fresh in my mind. Anyway, his answer was pretty disturbing.

He basically said that there are two types of cops on most modern police forces. There are those who've drawn their gun and fired it in the line of duty, and there are those who haven't. He said that many, if not most, of the cops in the latter category are eager to join the cops in former category. It's like a rite of passage on the way to becoming a hardened, veteran cop, and they are all aware of it, even if it goes unspoken.

Most everything else he said was either vague or decidedly pro-cop, but I thought that was very interesting. The thought that there are thousands of cops out there on patrol looking for any excuse at all to fire their weapon at someone is pretty scary.

A rite of passage?!? Charts. I'm so disappointed in you.

They don't want to gun down citizens or dogs as a rite of passage, they want to gun down citizens and dogs because that's what their Illuminati-generated marching orders tell them to do.

C'mon, man. Get your head back in the game!

[WESGATORS]

It seems like the driver could have been a little more explicit, but no question, the bigger problem here in this scene is the arresting officer. Is it not SOP to inquire about a weapon when asking someone to step out of the car? I am not familiar with conceal weapons permits or training, but is it genuinely that taboo for even the slightest of reveals (i.e. are they all arrestable offenses and/or commonly considered for arrest?)

Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

A rite of passage?!? Charts. I'm so disappointed in you.

They don't want to gun down citizens or dogs as a rite of passage, they want to gun down citizens and dogs because that's what their Illuminati-generated marching orders tell them to do.

C'mon, man. Get your head back in the game!

:tongue:

solid!

[gator1986]

Obviously, that cop is way out of line.

Two questions for my own edification:

- Does a CCW have to declare the weapon when dealing with LE?
- What is Florida law on getting out of a vehicle on a traffic stop?

You must not exit the car on a traffic stop unless told to do so

[WESGATORS]

Shortly after the 2:35 mark, the officer says "you never told me you had a permit"

But at the 0:47 mark, you can hear the driver clearly identify that he has a permit.

The officer later says "everything's on video, we'll go to court on it."

Seems like there's lessons for both sides in this one. I don't want my tax money to support that type of behavior from police officers (note, I don't live in Citrus County, so this specific event is not my problem).

Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS

[helix139]

It seems like the driver could have been a little more explicit, but no question, the bigger problem here in this scene is the arresting officer. Is it not SOP to inquire about a weapon when asking someone to step out of the car? I am not familiar with conceal weapons permits or training, but is it genuinely that taboo for even the slightest of reveals (i.e. are they all arrestable offenses and/or commonly considered for arrest?)

Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS

Brief accidental exposure of the firearm with no intent to brandish (such as when reaching up to get something off a high shelf and your shirt comes up or the wind blows your jacket open) is no longer a crime under Florida law.

[gatorman_07732]

Shortly after the 2:35 mark, the officer says "you never told me you had a permit"

But at the 0:47 mark, you can hear the driver clearly identify that he has a permit.

The officer later says "everything's on video, we'll go to court on it."

Seems like there's lessons for both sides in this one. I don't want my tax money to support that type of behavior from police officers (note, I don't live in Citrus County, so this specific event is not my problem).

Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS

The guy made two mistakes which was exiting the Van and not declaring his firearm. The cop was unhinged in threatening to shoot him and using abusive unprofessional language. Actually, every thing about the cop was unprofessional.

[ATLitigator]

Shortly after the 2:35 mark, the officer says "you never told me you had a permit"

But at the 0:47 mark, you can hear the driver clearly identify that he has a permit.

The officer later says "everything's on video, we'll go to court on it."

Seems like there's lessons for both sides in this one. I don't want my tax money to support that type of behavior from police officers (note, I don't live in Citrus County, so this specific event is not my problem).

Go GATORS!
,WESGATORS

the officer had no issue with the driver getting out of the vehicle or anything else until he saw the gun..

completely inexcusable...The officer needs to lose his certifcation and never be allowed to be a LEO again. There is no excuse for his behavior and I would love to play that video for a jury!

[Burke]

The man should sue him and whoever he works for for aggravated assault and false imprisonment.

There is no law in Florida requiring you to tell a cop you have a weapon, except when they ask. Texas and two other states have such laws, but not Florida.

After reading 2-3 thousand police reports in my day, I can think of nothing dumber than saying to a cop walking up to your car "I've got a gun."

[MichiGator2002]

Burke, what good is a philosophy based on rational self-interest if it doesn't hardwire you to know the answer to the question of whether you should lead with being armed, or if it might be better off for the cop to feel surprised by it, when you know as little about the guy outside the car as he does about the guy inside?

I mean, this logic is as old as western civilization -- declaring a concealed weapon relates back to the reason men shake hands. Who gives a damn if it is a legal obligation? It is a Darwinian obligation.

EDIT: I actually talked to a St. John's County deputy today about this exact story, and learned a couple interesting things -- 1) that these guys actually seem like enthusiastic supporters of more people concealed-carrying, and 2) that, yes, it's good street sense to declare a weapon but that, no, they aren't put out by it at all, just a genial "that's fine, just keep your hands where I can see them and don't move suddenly" so that everybody feels safe and comfortable.

[wargunfan]

I was stopped by a FHP officer for speeding some time ago. I happened to do the right things. He asked for my licence and registration. I realized that the registration was in the glove compartment with my loaded pistol which was in a zipper case. I told the officer that I had the weapon next to my registration. He told me to put my hands at ten and two on the steering wheel. He walked around the front of the car never taking his eyes off me. He opened the passenger door and the glove compartment and took the zipper case and told me to stay in the car. He went back to his cruiser and I could see him in the rear view mirror on the radio. Ten minutes went by. He walked back to my car and handed me the unloaded pistol and all the cartridges. He told me to please not carry the pistol cocked and locked. He said have a nice day and left. He did not give me a ticket for speeding. I thought he was very professional.
I think FHP officers probably get better training and are a cut above the average local cop.
The moral of the story: Never store your pistol next to your car registration. lol

[Gatormb]

I believe in Fl if you do not have CWP to carry in a car must have two steps to access. Mine is in the center console and holstered. If it was on the seat I would be in violation.

[gatorman_07732]

I believe in Fl if you do not have CWP to carry in a car must have two steps to access. Mine is in the center console and holstered. If it was on the seat I would be in violation.

It can be in the center console and unholstered or on the passenger side seat hand holstered if you do not have a CWP in Florida.

[helix139]

I believe in Fl if you do not have CWP to carry in a car must have two steps to access. Mine is in the center console and holstered. If it was on the seat I would be in violation.

Good rule of thumb, but not the law. The law just says it must be securely encased. This can be in a glove box, snapped in a holster, in a gun case, in a zippered gun case, or in a closed box or container with a lid or cover that has to be opened for access.

[jmoliver]

I have a CC permit in Florida. I was stopped w/o a weapon in my car by a FHP oI-4. I asked the officer what he would prefer in terms of identifying a weapon in then car. He said that he would recommend that you have your DL and CC Permit in your hand. The officer will then know to ask if you have a gun in the car. He said if it is in the glove box he would prefer taking it out himself and making sure it is not loaded. Made prefect sense.

[MichaelJoeWilliamson]

He said if it is in the glove box he would prefer taking it out himself and making sure it is not loaded. Made prefect sense.

There is nothing he could do if it were loaded. Other than unloading it. You would then be perfectly in your rights protest the action and then to load the weapons once the officer left. (you probably could reload if he were still there, but my survival instincts tell me this would be unwise.)

[rivergator]

I defended police on another thread. But that guy is way over the line here. Way over the line. I wonder if he treats everyone that way, if it was just a bad day.

[Lawdog88]

It is not any police officer's business if a driver of a vehicle is armed or not, if the officer has merely stopped the the vehicle for a traffic infraction. Without probable cause to search your vehicle - a moving traffic infraction is not probable cause - the police can only lawfully search your vehicle with your consent. There is no reason to give consent to search, either, if you do not want your 4th Amendment rights violated and think that you should not submit to "proving your innocence" to the police.

There is no legal requirement for you to disclose that you have a lawful firearm carried on your person, or in your vehicle.

I am prudent and street experienced enough to recognize that each situation is dynamic and that depending on what kind of police person you are dealing with - this one is obviously a freaking nut of some kind - your rights may need custom tailoring to avoid being killed by a crazed, excited cop . . . for nothing.

I would take this citizen's cases - criminal and civil suit to follow - in a heartbeat.

[Lawdog88]

Oh, and I am sure this cop visits kids in the hospital, rescues kittens, and is a really nice guy . . . when he isn't on duty.

[gatordee]

Thanks.

Seems like common sense to declare it. My father was a part-time cop and he always told me to stay in the vehicle. Turn off the vehicle. Put the keys on the dash. Leave my hands on the wheel. Basically, everything this guy didn't do.

I'm not defending this cop's actions. I agree he should be, at least, put on leave. I'm merely saying he may have been on edge due to the driver's actions. This in no way excuses his actions. If he can't deal with nerves, he needs a new line of work.

I see your point but he first thing a cop is going to think is that have had my share of run ins with the law or I have something to hide if i turned my car off and place the keys on my dash board while keeping my hands on the wheel. Plus by the way the cop was acting prior to seeing the gun, showed no signs of being on the edge. He seemed very relaxed and when the guy said he had the sticker he said "it happens..it happens.." in a very calm manner. This officer needs some counselling before he starts to take things way over the edge. If he acted like that on camera, what might he do off?

[exiledgator]

I see your point but he first thing a cop is going to think is that have had my share of run ins with the law or I have something to hide if i turned my car off and place the keys on my dash board while keeping my hands on the wheel. Plus by the way the cop was acting prior to seeing the gun, showed no signs of being on the edge. He seemed very relaxed and when the guy said he had the sticker he said "it happens..it happens.." in a very calm manner. This officer needs some counselling before he starts to take things way over the edge. If he acted like that on camera, what might he do off?

It's certainly possible those actions could be perceived by the officer as those performed by the guilty or previously guilty, however it is my understanding that the approach to a vehicle on a routine traffic stop is fraught with tension for an officer. I prefer to reduce that tension as much as possible, be I guilty or innocent.

[GolphinGator]

They just had a news clip on channel 20 Gainesville tonight. Did not show the whole video and blanked the F words of course. They stated after the video went viral that the State Attorney declined to press charges 17 days after the arrest and the Deputy has been suspended. I have no doubt as soon as it cools off he will be back at work. Guy was saved by video and computers for the most part.

[oaklandroadie]

I'm sure it is suspended with pay. Yea for the taxpayers who get to pick up the bill for this d-bag junior college dropout.

[Lawdog88]

They just had a news clip on channel 20 Gainesville tonight. Did not show the whole video and blanked the F words of course. They stated after the video went viral that the State Attorney declined to press charges 17 days after the arrest and the Deputy has been suspended. I have no doubt as soon as it cools off he will be back at work. Guy was saved by video and computers for the most part.


Yeah, they were playing it up here too, saying that the State Attorney did not think he could get a conviction . . . what with the video and all.

Of course, if there had NOT been a video and an audio of the incident, you can bet your Heineken that they would have prosecuted and the jury would not have known EXACTLY what happened.

I hope the guy gets some satisfaction on the civil side of this thing. Probably worth 10-20K worth of insult damages in front of the right jury. Or more.

[gatorev12]

I defended police on another thread. But that guy is way over the line here. Way over the line. I wonder if he treats everyone that way, if it was just a bad day.

And many people opined in that thread that your experience was pretty atypical--and that most citizens (law-abiding or not) can tell at least a few stories about an overly aggressive and/or an abusive cop.

I think most people can recognize and allow for the fact that cops have a difficult job--and one that's easy to second-guess.

But what most people have a hard time with are the double-standards and blatant flaunting of the law that often happens in situations like this. There's little accountability to individuals or the public when law enforcement officers take the law into their own hands.

[ChartsandGrafs]

There's little accountability to individuals or the public when law enforcement officers take the law into their own hands.

Why do you think that is, specifically? How did it come to this?

Serious question.

[HALLGATOR]

If one of us threaten to shoot someone in the back and are armed and have the capabilities to do it then couldn't we go to jail?

[orangeblueorangeblue]

No, but it is a good idea if the gun can or will be seen,

It's probably the first thing you should say. When I was younger and in the car with my dad, he got pulled over once and the conversation started with "Officer, I want to let you know that I have a concealed permit and am carrying a firearm." Seemed like the cop appreciated that. Ended up without a ticket.